Development Info Putting the science back in Wasteland 2's science fiction

[tuluse]

Like I said in the other thread, there were two possibilities: either the scientists would go with scientifically realistic flora and fauna, which would be boring, or they would go with wacky shit like giant crabs, in which case their involvement isn't necessary at all.

Surely there is some room between necessary and desired?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't know if there is. The issue here isn't that involving experts is bad. It's that experts don't have much to contribute in this particular situation because scientific reality and what works in games are two different things. It's like inviting medical experts to help you design a science!-approved insta-healing potion.

 

[Mother Russia]

In Grimoire...you can help Hermit Crabs find their shells.

 

[almondblight]

The science in the example is wrong too. Hermit crab shells can't have holes in them because they need to keep their gills wet, so phone booths and buses wouldn't work. Radiation would be all over the place, affecting hermit crabs when they're larva and are particularly susceptible, and in what they eat. Discarding irradiated shells doesn't particularly help them when they then have to crawl into another irradiated shell.

This is all basic stuff that you don't need a PhD to know about, and yet no one brought it up. You know why? Because no one cares about this stuff. Even people that claim science! is very important don't seem to notice it.

 

[Infinitron]

What's your point? Is anyone arguing that not a single scientifically correct idea should be present in games?

No, but there are people here arguing that passing some poorly defined threshold of scientific inspiration is a Bad Thing.

 

[Harold]

It's like inviting medical experts to help you design a science!-approved insta-healing potion.

- Ah, yes, that would be something like a... an item consisting of a syringe for containing and delivering the medication in the form of body stimulants and a gauge for measuring the status of the syringe's contents. A... stimpak, if you will.
- Wow, that's just brilliant, Mr. medical-expert. But it won't be just any Stimpak. It wil be, wait for it!, yes, a Super-stimpak! (the whole team of developers and scientists start brofisting each-other around the central office at InXile hq as one man, one visionary, Brian Fargo, leaning back on his chair, watches them, takes another puff from his cuban cigar, then nods to himself, smiles and is content.

 

[Phelot]

I do think that it can sort of be cool to be able to scientifically explain a creature or whatever, but I don't think anything in a video game should try to confine itself to reality. In other words, if you can give a little realism to your mutant, by all means, but who really cares if its third metal limb isn't biologically sound?

I think a good example is in Marathon. The Pfhor aliens were designed by a medical student who, for flavor, explained why the alien had certain characteristics, what made its blood yellow, etc. It was a nice little effect and made it a bit more believable, but in the end, it was just the design that made them cool.

 

[Infinitron]

I do think that it can sort of be cool to be able to scientifically explain a creature or whatever, but I don't think anything in a video game should try to confine itself to reality. In other words, if you can give a little realism to your mutant, by all means, but who really cares if its third metal limb isn't biologically sound?

I think a good example is in Marathon. The Pfhor aliens were designed by a medical student who, for flavor, explained why the alien had certain characteristics, what made its blood yellow, etc. It was a nice little effect and made it a bit more believable, but in the end, it was just the design that made them cool.

According to Vault Dweller, that medical student brought nothing to the table and should have been fired

 

[Vault Dweller]

"...but in the end it was just the design that made them cool."

They were quirky humanoids with 3 red eyes, so you have 3 man colors: green/blue for the armor, red for the eyes, yellow for blood.

I know nothing about blood, but I've learned in 3 seconds that: "For example, sea cucumbers have yellow blood. The yellow coloration is due to a high concentration of the yellow vanadium-based pigment, vanabin. Unlike hemoglobin and hemocyanin, vanabin does not seem to be involved in oxygen transport."

So, you can say that the fuckers didn't need oxygen, point at their yellow blood as proof and look very scientific.

 

[Phelot]

I didn't mean to get into this argument, but I was simply pointing out that it can be kind of cool to scientifically back up your made up critter. I don't think hiring scientists is all that necessary and I should also make clear that the artist behind the Pfhor was hired because he's a good artist, not because of his medical background. He simply used his medical background when designing the game's aliens and I thought that was a nice touch.

The point I was trying to make was that video game monsters shouldn't be bound by real life science.

 

[almondblight]

There's a world of difference between having a good designer who incorporates some of their knowledge into the game and scientists hired to make things sciency. I doubt that medical student was brought in to make medically accurate aliens; I also doubt any medical student could have come up with a design that good. Likewise, a designer that was a former gang member might be able to use some of their experience to make a quest in Wasteland 2 more interesting, but that doesn't mean the InXile needs to hire gang members (or experts) for authenticity.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Phelot

It was a nice touch and I appreciated your point, but then Infinitron came and ruined everything

 

[Harold]

There's a world of difference between having a good designer who incorporates some of their knowledge into the game and scientists hired to make things sciency. I doubt that medical student was brought in to make medically accurate aliens; I also doubt any medical student could have come up with a design that good. Likewise, a designer that was a former gang member might be able to use some of their experience to make a quest in Wasteland 2 more interesting, but that doesn't mean the InXile needs to hire gang members (or experts) for authenticity.

It would give Avellone a chance to flex his muscles at writing a The Wire style quest, like he said he'd like to do.

Updated my journal.
- What did you just say?
- U- updated my journal?
- Nigga is you taking notes on a fucking criminal conspiracy?!

 

[Phelot]

Infinitron ruins everything.

 

[Infinitron]

I doubt that medical student was brought in to make medically accurate aliens; I also doubt any medical student could have come up with a design that good.

Well, there's your mistake. Smart people come up with smart ideas. It's always good to have smart people around you giving you good ideas.

Unfortunately, they also have a way of making those ideas look easy and obvious, so that some people think they could have easily done it themselves. But hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[felipepepe]

I know nothing about blood, but I've learned in 3 seconds that: "For example, sea cucumbers have yellow blood. The yellow coloration is due to a high concentration of the yellow vanadium-based pigment, vanabin. Unlike hemoglobin and hemocyanin, vanabin does not seem to be involved in oxygen transport."

So, you can say that the fuckers didn't need oxygen, point at their yellow blood as proof and look very scientific.

And that's why a good designer is better than any scientist, because the scientists are limited in their field of knowledge, a good designer no. I doubt Gary Gygax hired a mythology doctor to make the first D&D, he probably went the library, rented some books and did some research. RESEARCH, that's the bloody key, you don't hire someone to think for you, you learn to think yourself. With internet it's even more unjustified, with one scientist money you could probably hire 5 trainee designers and have then google shit up all day to get ideas.

That's how advertising agencies work, there are the top guys and a horde of trainees doing concepts and throwing idea at then, wacthing movies, reading reference books and all that.

 

[Mother Russia]

If you want SCIENCE!! in your game then stop derping around and implement real LIBERAL SCIENCE!! i.e. nuclear winter...it's always snowing, you can't see anything cuz ash covers the atmosphere, etc etc

 

[Baron]

Vancouver patient oozes green blood

​

Doctors at Vancouver's St. Paul's Hospital came across something highly illogical when they tried to put an arterial line into a patient about to undergo surgery: his blood was dark green.
The green blood — reminiscent of the Vulcan blood found in Mr. Spock of Star Trek fame — came as a bit of a shock to Dr. Alana Flexman and her colleagues, who report on the unusual case in this week's issue of the journal The Lancet.

As surgical staff prepared the man for the middle-of-the-night emergency operation, Flexman and a colleague attempted to insert a line into a wrist artery.
Arterial lines are used to monitor blood pressure during an operation; any blood that flows when the line is inserted into the artery should be vivid red, the sign it has been oxygenated.
But in this case, which occurred in October 2005, it was not.

"During insertion, we normally see arterial blood come out. That's how we know we're in the right place. And normally that blood is bright red, as you would expect in an artery," Flexman said in an interview Thursday.
"But in his case, the blood kept coming back as dark green instead of bright red. "It was sort of a green-black. … Like an avocado skin maybe."

"We were very concerned, obviously,"

source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/06/08/health-green-blood.html

 

[Angthoron]

In Grimoire...you can help Hermit Crabs find their shells.

We will believe that a Hermit Crab can be shelled?

 

[Visbhume]

In the Matt Chatt wiith Sandy Petersen, the latter mentions that he majored in Zoology. Many of the crazy lovecraftian monsters he came up with for Call of Cthulhu were inspired by the lifecycle of some real-world bug or parasite.

 

[l3loodAngel]

But mudcrabs again? Sigh, science is really boring sometimes...

Imagination FTW, but since Fargo doesn't have one, we will have to settle for crabs...

 

[l3loodAngel]

Also scientists are hacks who can't really tell how a creature would evolve...

How a tiny crab would evolve in a giant fucking crab who will need tons of food in a low-food environment because most species would be dead?

And 10K years of time for evolution

 

[Moribund]

The issue here isn't that involving experts is bad, it's that I'm incredibly butthurt this gets more attention than AoD and has a hundred times bigger fan base.

 

[felipepepe]

The issue here isn't that involving experts is bad, it's that I'm incredibly butthurt this gets more attention than AoD and has a hundred times bigger fan base.

Don't know about scientists, but some people really need a humour advisor...

 

[Moribund]

A comedian would be wasted on improving this joke.