Development Info Putting the science back in Wasteland 2's science fiction

[FeelTheRads]

I sincerely doubt it was invented by an engineer.

It doesn't matter, the point is that in hindsight many things are obvious and you can claim anybody could have come up with them.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You explained absolutely nothing. Your argument was always reverse-design.

My argument was that science is needed only in hard sci-fi books and games, which (games) represent 1% of all games, if that. I've played a lot of games in 25+ years and my conclusion is that they need good design, not realism, and that good design usually relies on abstract concepts and what's fun in video games, which tend to be wacky and unrealistic.

Your argument was "I like science! It makes everything awesome!"

The point is that maybe it was designed from the start based on that guy's educational background, not thrown together first and then some explanations cobbled together.

Maybe, but who gives a fuck? The main effect is the distinctive color not the scientific explanation. Color is the artists/designer domain and once you decide to go with yellow blood and a quick search can give enough to write a couple of lines, which is all that's needed in a shooter.

Maybe they wouldn't have come up with what they did if that guy didn't have medical training, no matter how smart you think you are by Googling shit...

Maybe. Then the blood would have been red and everyone would have thought that the game sucked.

Oh yeah, and the wheel? Totally obvious man. Just Google wheel. You tell me you couldn't invent that shit by yourself? It's a round thing that takes you places. Anybody could have come up with it.

Making shit up in video games is the same as inventing and engineering in real life.

Also, just to piss off AoD fanbois, your reverse-designer mentality clearly shows in AoD and is probably the main reason why it sucks.

:gasp:

I also like how you conveniently ignored this:

In the Matt Chatt wiith Sandy Petersen, the latter mentions that he majored in Zoology. Many of the crazy lovecraftian monsters he came up with for Call of Cthulhu were inspired by the lifecycle of some real-world bug or parasite.

Or maybe you didn't ignore it. Just figured out that if you knew what bug or parasite it was about you could have just Googled it and then go "HAH LAME TOTALLY COULD HAVE COME UP WITH THAT TOO".

Or maybe, when tasked with designing fucked up, out of this world monsters, bugs and parasites (including the deep see/ocean ones) are your only source of reference, even if you didn't major in Zoology? I mean, where the fuck else would you look? You act as if research is an alien fucking concept to you and you've never heard of such a crazy notion.

"Research? Nah, man, you either major in some shit or you ask those who did. These are your only options!"

 

[St. Toxic]

It doesn't matter, the point is that in hindsight many things are obvious and you can claim anybody could have come up with them.

Well, in a science-fiction world... they are. You work from the desired effect to a system that seems plausible enough to achieve it, and then you fill in the gaps with explanations that would apply to reality. Naturally, you can twist the reality to any shape you desire, as long as the audience knows about it and is willing to accept it. We're not colonizing space here.

But, having said that; if you're a dimwit, your explanations for why the djinn-canon works as it does will only appeal to other dimwits. The thing about plausible mumbo-jumbo is, as Fallout quests will show, that you need the charisma and the intelligence to pull it off nicely. Just because you work at nasa doesn't mean you can write sci-fi, but it'll definitely give you the edge when you're bullshitting about space.

 

[Infinitron]

Vault Dweller has set up a situation here where he can never be refuted. Anything the scientists end up influencing in the final game, he can claim that "meh, anybody could have done that!" How do you argue with that? You can't.

Why continue this discussion? Leave the man alone with his arrogance.

 

[Moribund]

Anybody cud have invent zero. Why u need math class for that. I learned everythin I need to know in kindergarten.

This butthurt is more extreme than anything I've seen before, like a million georgians cried out at once and then were silent.

If it were this one stupid issue I'd dismiss it but it's everything fargo does. And there's never anyone who agrees with him. Oh wait, there was something about colors, even I agree with that one.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Vault Dweller has set up a situation here where he can never be refuted. Anything the scientists end up influencing in the final game, he can claim that "meh, anybody could have done that!" How do you argue with that? You can't.

Why continue this discussion? Leave the man alone with his arrogance.

I think he is right and that is why he can't be refuted and not because he is being "clever" about arguing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Vault Dweller has set up a situation here where he can never be refuted. Anything the scientists end up influencing in the final game, he can claim that "meh, anybody could have done that!" How do you argue with that? You can't.

Why continue this discussion? Leave the man alone with his arrogance.

Having an opinion now passes for arrogance?

No, I'm not claiming that anyone could have done that. I'm saying that anyone can do MINOR SHIT like "let's make blood yellow!" or "let's make crabs giant!". Reading is teh hard?

Unless there are people here who think "holy shit, giant crabs! So scientific!"

 

[Infinitron]

Having an opinion now passes for arrogance?

No, I'm not claiming that anyone could have done that. I'm saying that anyone can do MINOR SHIT like "let's make blood yellow!" or "let's make crabs giant!". Reading is teh hard?

Unless there are people here who think "holy shit, giant crabs! So scientific!"

Don't change the original subject of this thread. Your opinion is that scientists (and people with specialized knowledge, in general) have nothing to contribute to games.

You're a person who has a very limited view of how ideas and concepts are inspired and created by human beings. Like FeelTheRads said, "reverse-design".

You need to consider whether your "25+ years of gaming" have helped you as a designer - or whether they've actually harmed you.

 

[St. Toxic]

I'm sure VD would be pleasantly surprised if W2 came out with a few original and clever ideas as a result of this. But he is essentially right, there's no real reason to count on it.

 

[undecaf]

Why the fuck is this even an issue?

 

[tuluse]

I'm sure VD would be pleasantly surprised if W2 came out with a few original and clever ideas as a result of this. But he is essentially right, there's no real reason to count on it.

Maybe not, but does that make it a bad idea to try?

 

[St. Toxic]

Maybe not, but does that make it a bad idea to try?

Of course not, and as I said before -- it's pretty standard. The only way it's actually a big deal is that it's being done on fairly limited funding, and it's probably a first for inXile, considering their previous games. I doubt it's a first for Brian.
So, VD thinks they could do without it and just use common sense and do their own research. Well, it's a thought. The world he's been working on for the past, who cares I don't know, many years certainly couldn't do shit even with a truckload of the world's most brilliant scientists, and I don't mean that in any bad way. There shouldn't really be an issue here, but I think people may be reading in a bit too much into what VD says.

 

[Gragt]

You are either for or against science.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Leave the man alone with his arrogance.

The idea of a Prosper-like forum for VD just made me giggle.

 

[almondblight]

Don't change the original subject of this thread. Your opinion is that scientists (and people with specialized knowledge, in general) have nothing to contribute to games.

It's not that scientists have nothing to contribute. It's that hiring scientists to increase realism in your game is mostly pointless.

As I said a couple pages back, a scientist can be a good designer that uses their background to enhance a game. The same can be true of a former gang member, soldier, electrician, office worker, classic scifi fans, etc. What's important is that they are good designers, first and foremost. If a good designer that's a scientist/gang member/expert on 18th century literature is capable of pulling using said knowledge to enhance the game, that's great - it doesn't mean that games need to hire scientists/gang members/experts on 18th century literature.

If Thwacke! was presented as great designers that use their scientific background to create gameworlds, it'd be closer to what you're talking about. They aren't. They're presented as consultants brought in to make sure that the science portrayed in the game is realistic. That's what the whole damn discussion was, and has, been about.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Don't change the original subject of this thread. Your opinion is that scientists (and people with specialized knowledge, in general) have nothing to contribute to games.

You're a person who has a very limited view of how ideas and concepts are inspired and created by human beings. Like FeelTheRads said, "reverse-design".

You need to consider whether your "25+ years of gaming" have helped you as a designer - or whether they've actually harmed you.

Ok, let me try again.

How "ideas and concepts are inspired and created" in real life, where you do need expert subject matter knowledge, has fuck all to do with games.

If games were proper simulations, where developers had to design "fully functioning" creatures that have to detect prey, hunt, eat, mate, breed, interact with other animals, and proper ecosystems and food chains, then you'd need experts for that. To design a giant blob with hit points and cool abilities, a blob that exists in vacuum and have no fucking purpose, other than to give you experience points and loot, you need a designer.

Is it an ideal situation? Probably not. Is Fargo aiming to change all that? Probably not. So, what the fuck are we talking about here?

Had the scientists' involvement resulted in really cool, interesting creatures, I would have gladly admitted that I was wrong, but giant fucking crabs? BN said that mostly they consult on morality and how to put people in tough situations. You need scientists for that too now?

 

[Infinitron]

If Thwacke! was presented as great designers that use their scientific background to create gameworlds, it'd be closer to what you're talking about. They aren't. They're presented as consultants brought in to make sure that the science portrayed in the game is realistic. That's what the whole damn discussion was, and has, been about.

Bulllshit, the argument has never been about "realism". I've said that several times in this thread and the other one. Have you been completely ignoring my posts and Brother None's?

Inspiration, not realism. Plausibility, not realism. Detail, not realism. Repeat these things three times before breakfast.

 

[tobial]

It was mostly a philosophical "can science consultants make a game like Wasteland 2 better? debate"

And that's one stupid debate. No further questions.

 

[St. Toxic]

Though it's certainly true that VD flip-flops and twists every argument that he participates in.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Though it's certainly true that VD flip-flops and twists every argument that he participates in.

How else is he supposed to stay "not wrong"?

 

[Infinitron]

How "ideas and concepts are inspired and created" in real life, where you do need expert subject matter knowledge, has fuck all to do with games.

I disagree. Ideas are ideas. You sound like somebody who is worried about his job security as a game design Renaissance Man.

BN said that mostly they consult on morality and how to put people in tough situations. You need scientists for that too now?

Depends. It sounds like Fargo is interested in some kind of evo-psych, scientific conception of morality. That would be interesting.

 

[Vault Dweller]

How "ideas and concepts are inspired and created" in real life, where you do need expert subject matter knowledge, has fuck all to do with games.

I disagree. Ideas are ideas. You sound like somebody who is worried about his job security as a game design Renaissance Man.

Clearly, I'm afraid to get fired and be replaced by a scientist.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Your argument was "I like science! It makes everything awesome!"

Actually, my argument is that science training, like any other field, can have its benefits. As in, hey, maybe if you intend to do a game that revolves heavily around religion then it could be helpful to ask somebody with religious training instead of googling random concepts.

No, I'm not claiming that anyone could have done that. I'm saying that anyone can do MINOR SHIT like "let's make blood yellow!" or "let's make crabs giant!".

Actually, you're claiming that that's all that can be done. Like I've said before, you're reducing a whole field the most basic concepts and then claim it sucks. It's like claiming that mathematics is pointless because one can clearly see that if you add 1 with 1 you get 2.

Making shit up in video games is the same as inventing and engineering in real life.

I see analogies go right past you.

Or maybe, when tasked with designing fucked up...

Or maybe the ideas came from his training. But yeah, sure, after it's done, then VD can come all puffed-up and banging his chest and yell "I CAN GOOGLE SHIT UP SO CLEARLY THATS EXACTLY WHAT I WOULD HAVE DONE TOO".

Had the scientists' involvement resulted in really cool, interesting creatures

You would have said that you could have come up with them by googling shit.
Maybe you'd like to actually watch that documentary I linked you to in one of the previous pages? You know that 1 and a half hour long documentary that you dismissed after 7 minutes with "seriously?".

 

[St. Toxic]

Though it's certainly true that VD flip-flops and twists every argument that he participates in.

How else is he supposed to stay "not wrong"?

Here's a thought: He could be more moderate in what he says. Even when the point he's making has a solid core, he attacks the subject from all possible angles, until he starts contradicting himself and killing his own arguments. I mean, if he wanted to, he could hire me as his PR consultant, but apparently he prefers to dispense with common sense and do no research whatsoever.

How "ideas and concepts are inspired and created" in real life, where you do need expert subject matter knowledge, has fuck all to do with games.

BLAM.

If games were proper simulations, where developers had to design "fully functioning" creatures that have to detect prey, hunt, eat, mate, breed, interact with other animals, and proper ecosystems and food chains, then you'd need experts for that. To design a giant blob with hit points and cool abilities, a blob that exists in vacuum and have no fucking purpose, other than to give you experience points and loot, you need a designer.

Now, if only you applied the same standards to moral dilemmas.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

I mean, if he wanted to, he could hire me as his PR consultant, but apparently he prefers to dispense with common sense and do no research whatsoever.

Actually, I think Thwacke could help him out a great deal in this situation.