Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

System Shock 2 Mod Guide

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Infinitron, Jan 24, 2013.

  1. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    Messages:
    30,577
    Location:
    Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
    The problem with SS2 is that some weapons are either very problematic investments (in a game where you need to manage resources tightly), obsolete on arrival or rendering other weapons obsolete.

    And that shit often doesn't make sense in light of descriptions.

    For example if laser rapier is described to cause burns, why is it *less* effective against annelids and more effective against robots?
    It's laser, it doesn't deal nebulous energy damage, it burns shit, unless it heats it up so fast that it explodes, then it explodes shit blowing nasty holes in targets, especially those made of water-soaked meat they call a body.
    If anything laser rapier should have been killer against organics, but maybe less effective against mechs (it should also require power, like it did in 1).
    Pretty much same with laser pistol - make one mode of fire incendiary/high explosive, the other hi ex or even normal.
    Want nebulous energy damage? Make some sort of particle beam or electrical weapon that doesn't rely on inflicting (thermal) burns and let annelids be resistant to those.
    This would help make laser pistol distinct from whatever should be the final energy weapon in terms of gameplay utility and make it tempting to carry both, it would also stop energy weapons from being cripplingly overspecialized.
    Speaking of final energy weapon - ideally it should be either a railgun (to rehabilitate SS1's atrocity), or if making a weapon using both charge and ammo would be unfeasible, some sort of particle beam weapon dealing amazing amount of (nebulous) energy damage at high velocity.

    Same with std. weapons, shotgun should receive considerable damage boost (especially with buckshot) and maybe extra ammo types (to help it preserve utility and give it versatility that can be expected from pump-action as well as making it ultimate CQB gun, at least with right ammo), AR should either have its own (rare!) ammo, or receive damage reduction (to level that's only somewhat superior to pistol) and have its primary fire mode changed to 3x burst (but accurate, recoil only after third shot). Like with energy weapons this would separate the niches - want to economize? use pistol, want high burst/sustained damage (and good damage/round against resilient targets)? use AR, want both? use both.
    It would also help giving weapons their distinct feel rather than them being iterations of the same shit with different models and steeper reqs - if your weapons don't feel distinct, why have multiple weapons?
    Also, I'd change wrench classification from STD to HVY, to further debuff STDs. You'd probably club shit better with heavy piece of metal if you were used to handling and carrying heavy weaponry.

    Exotics are awfully problematic too - not only are they cripplingly overspecialized like energy weapons (or even more so given that no ranged exotic weapons damages mechs) but they also require around 50% more cyber module investment (because of also requiring research skill) and lead to potential failed builds - exotic without research => fail.

    Also, normal ammo shouldn't be equally effective against armored targets. They are armored for a reason. shooting robots with ordinary bullets should yield poor results. Similarly, AP ammo shouldn't deal bonus damage to mechanical targets. It should merely deal full damage to them and somewhat reduced damage to organics. BOOM, without multiplied damage against mechs and with more modest overall damage (apart from SG) standard weapons are no longer an all around powerhouse. Want bonus damage? Use EMP or (nebulous) energy or something.
    Incendiaries should burninate swarms (I think it's actually in the latest community patch - :incline: ).
    Frag grenades should deal reduced damage against armor, though there might be specialized grenade type with small AoE, but nasty AP damage (something akin to vanilla's disruption grenades, but working properly).
    Overall damage types in vanilla look like someone tried to make a sawyerist dream come true in regards to mechs vs. organics with predictable (disastrous) results (speaking about balance...).

    Anyway, mechanically SS2 is a dismal failure compared to its prequel (see 1's penetration mechanics, energy weapon heat and power management, hand grenades, successful mechanical content gating with buff or environmental hazard gates, hardware that modified your ability to tackle in-game hazards and actually made the PC having a cyber interface a gameplay factor), the only reason SS2 is overall a better game than 1 is atmosphere (although the difference can be reduced by switching the music off in 1 :troll: ) and even that is hampered by inclusion of counterimmersive gamey shit (that allegedly is something SCP aims to eliminate) like game-y damage system, stupidly implemented weapon skills and resulting gameplay of discarding valuable resources because of their incompatibility with current build (in a survival game). If RPG elements are to be the only casualty of actually fixing those problems, then it's a no-brainer - just kick them off a flight of stairs, then double tap them in the head if they try to get up.

    The thing is, I'm not sure RPG elements would be noticeably affected. Making a build incapable of maintaining or repairing a weapon would transform it - in a build dependent manner - from regular gameplay element into a valuable, limited resource. For example a character specializing with energy weapons would see an assault rifle as something that might be worth lugging around to use in a tight spot, while a character specializing in standard weapons might consider carrying around an EMP weapon without using it regularly, that would be invaluable against some bunched up mechs.

    Depending on mechanical flexibility of the game itself (as in ability to bind arbitrary stats to arbitrary shit) even a tiered system where some weapons would have requirements for stuff like reloading/recharging and a handful of most advanced ones requirements for shooting (generally stuff advanced enough for a character to conceivably not be able to fire it without specialized training - exotics, advanced heavies).
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
    • Brofist Brofist x 4
    ^ Top  
  2. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    Messages:
    30,577
    Location:
    Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
    A question to anyone intimate with SS2's working - how much of the stuff is hardcoded? For example, is it possible to check for a different skill when determining whether to allow an action?

    I'm thinking of stripping weapon requirements from all but a small number of weapons (ranged exotics and advanced heavies) and greastly reducing remaining ones, stripping all maintenance and modify skill requirements (they would still affect effectiveness of maint tools, charge capacity and % difficulty of modification, respectively), but making weapon skills required for maintaining and modifying weapons.
    Maybe even reloading in some cases, but I doubt game would allow that.

    There is absolutely no sensible reason why even an amateur, let alone a trained military professional would not be able to handle an AR, shotgun, or even a pistol. Hell, even a glorified alien club.
    OTOH there are plenty of reasons why cleaning and maintenance would require familiarity with given type of weapon, modifying and improving it even more so.
     
    ^ Top  
  3. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    I can say with 100% certainty that anyone attempting such a rework will run into problems, some solvable, other ones circumventable, and a bunch of unsolvable ones as well. Dark never hands out free cookies (a good example would be the SCP laser pistol - once upon a time, I had a great idea of stealing the Secmod model alternating laser pistol and adding it to SCP, only to find out that it does not work reliably, and ended up bugging three more people to do overtime on a fix. it's done, but lets say the amount of effort that went into this little thing was probably not worth it).

    anyway, as I've mentioned before, while you are making sense, such mod/rework would be difficult to pull off, both because the editor limitations (I have a hunch that the act/react system is not going to like most of your ideas) and the necessity to balance it properly so it would incorporate into the game smoothly. and as I've said, the demand for such a modification seems to be low, so it looks like a lot of work for very little benefit, but if you are serious, then by all means, go for it.

    also, such radical modifications are definitely out of scope of SCP - the guiding principle here is to stay true to the original game, meaning when you play it with SCP, it should still work like, feel like, and play like the original game, just with less anomalies and more smoothness. touching the game mechanics is prohibited, unless they are completely and utterly broken (for example, that one bloody slug that comes with the jammed hybrid shotgun - you need to grab the gun, unload it, and drop the gun, littering the early levels with broken shotguns. an engine hack will scout the levels on each reload, and remove broken shotguns to make sure nothing bad will happen. if you need to do such a thing, then you have a dead giveaway that such a mechanics needs to go - SCP retains the ADaoB fix where the solitary slug is spawned inside the hybrid's inventory and not in the gun, so you can grab it without touching the broken weapon. we already received some purist flak because of this).

    one last thing - someone with the military cyber interface not being able to use equipment without investing CMs is actually not that dumb of an idea - it might be an intentional thing, money/copyright/other evil corporate stuff involved. we have that even now with certain software.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014
    ^ Top  
  4. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    forgot to answer the orig question - I think the requirements (to equip a gun) are indeed hardcoded, and can only be the player stats (STR, END, PSI, AGI, CYB). setting other requirements (maintain and similar) will not prevent you from equipping the gun.

    it's quite possible that NVscript would allow you to work around this, but be prepared for hard resistance. no free cookies, ever.
     
    ^ Top  
  5. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    Messages:
    30,577
    Location:
    Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
    That's good, because I'm not interested in preventing anyone from equipping a weapon. Actually I'd set weapon skill requirements for most weapons to 0 (Excluding FC and AL, possibly VP and SFG).
    I'm interested in preventing weapon maintenance/modification using different stats than MNT and MOD - namely weapon skill.

    Any moron can shoot something that has grip and trigger. Keeping weapon in good shape OTOH does require some weapon-specific knowledge while installing custom modifications requires in-depth knowledge of the workings of that weapon.

    The stated goal of SCP, aside from bugfixing, is removal of counterimmersive or game-y stuff.
    The single most counterimmersive and gamey thing in SS2 is its weapon skill mechanics.

    Well, that shell should have been in this shotgun, although there is no mechanical difference here.
    Those broken shotguns are a can worms in general - first they are clearly operable when wielded by hybrids, so why are they always broken other than to keep player from getting unlimited supply of decent weapons? Second, why always 1 shell? Shouldn't you get loot more or less random stash of ammo?

    Basically the only good solutions I can think of are:
    - making SG hybrids much rarer but giving them proper shotguns and ammo. Would work well with any changes upping shotgun damage and would be by far the most sensible (why are there so many shotguns compared to anything else aboard the VB?), but would have massive gameplay impact, which is bad.
    - making SG hybrids' shotguns kind of grown into hybrid arms rather than just held, with flesh finding its way around and into gun's mechanism, making the gun unusable. But that would require asset mod, even if minor one.

    In such case the R-Grade cyber rig would be a liability rather than the asset it's portrayed as. It would turn the game into the same sort of farce Quake 2 was, except the other way around.
    Not to mention that:
    -SS1 Hacker had no such problems
    -it would be dumb not to just enable everything when installing this shit into basically your only hope aboard the ship
    -it's not like such implants are widely used after their ban after Citadel fiasco, so such limitation would make no sense, they aren't consumer elctronics
    -even if they were widely used such limitation would be retarded.

    tl;dr
    How about no?
     
    ^ Top  
  6. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    remember, Shodan gave the soldier the cyber interface, she also gives him most of the CMs, and she is keeping him on a short leash (she is apparently able to generate them as she pleases, so she could just give him 10 000 of them, but she doesn't, because she is an evil megalomaniac), so it's quote possible she introduced the limitations on purpose, if the corporate lockout theory is not your thing. so while this mechanics would not be realistic in the real world, it is perfectly explainable within the borders of the SS2 universe. just like fireball monkeys, crazy AIs, giant translucent spiders, robo-ninjas with energy shurikens, reality altering warp engines, cyber nannies with no faces and mecha-vaginas, edible worms and the rest of the crazy stuff (seriously, the entire game is completely nutz if you start to think about things. nothing really makes sense). the official theory on the hybrid shotgun is that the Many keeps the shotgun barely operational via small anti-entropy field generated by the worm parasite - once the host is killed, the field dissipates, leaving the shotgun unusable to prevent the gun from falling into enemy's hands. the one slug is the one last loaded slug, and the hybrid can also spawn random slug clip, rarely two (also a game mechanics, not making much sense in the real world but is perfectly fine in a game. kill a dude, he drops loot, as simple as that).

    basically, I can invent bullshit to plug plotholes all day, but the point is, that's just how things are in the SS2 universe. most people don't mind.
     
    ^ Top  
  7. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    79,736
    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Looks like the newbie modding guide has been updated: https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=4447.0

    Also, SS2Tool has been updated to 5.3: https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=4141.0

     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
    • Brofist Brofist x 4
    ^ Top  
  8. Invictus Arcane The Real Fanboy

    Invictus
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2013
    Messages:
    2,602
    Location:
    Mexico
    Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Hey Infinitron I remember some hi res cutscenes that could be added to the recommended mods too. I have the file here is case your are interested
     
    ^ Top  
  9. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    only one hires cutscene exists at the moment. anything else floating around the 'net are just rescaled/reprocessed original cutscenes, only good for potentially glitching the game out. anyone claiming they look better is suffering the placebo effect - by reprocessing the video, you can only lose quality.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    ^ Top  
  10. Invictus Arcane The Real Fanboy

    Invictus
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2013
    Messages:
    2,602
    Location:
    Mexico
    Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Yeah the videos I have include that one as well as some resized videos which a user resized and cleared up...but I guess then nobody is interested since as all internet savants voodoo47 already has a pretty set opinión on whats what
     
    ^ Top  
  11. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    I've seen too many attempts at this, and all were failures*, so unless he is a hollywood class video editor with some serious equipment, I'm sticking with my previous statement. the only way of doing this properly is the hard way - set the scene up again in the editor with all the updated resources loaded, run and capture it at 640*480 (max the engine supports. also must be 4:3, so if you want a widescreen video, you need to letterbox it manually) instead of the orig 320*240 (the Rebirth cutscene has been created this way as well). hopefully, SCP will include such videos someday (but we are so few, and the tasks are.. Many).

    trust me, I'm an engineer.


    *one exception are the Thief3 Gold cutscenes, where that greenish tint has been removed from the videos, and this indeed does make them look better.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    SS2 fan missions have never been too popular with the general public, but anyway, for those few that might be interested, I've (as apparently, TFix, SCP, and the recent T1/TG FM fixup effort are not enough) managed to find a bit of time to give Return to the UNN a basic overhaul - mostly bugfixes, but also a few NewDark improvements, and some extra effects from the upcoming SCP release as well. the tuneup level is not anywhere near SCP, but the FM should play nicely anyway.

    one note about mods - current version of Rebirth is not fully compatible, so either don't use it, or wait for the next Rebirth release, or use the wip model of the Shotgun hybrid.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    SS2tool now installs NewDark 2.44.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    ^ Top  
  14. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    Rebirth 04 is up;
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    ^ Top  
  15. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    it's a bird? it's a plane? it's a new release of the community patch? no, just a bloody Halloween pumpkin head mod.

    today's SS2tool update required.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  16. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    also here is this year's It's Once Again Probably Still Halloween, Somewhere release of SCP. fully compatible with the pumpkin heads, of course.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  18. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    happy holidays?

     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  19. Ash Arcane

    Ash
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Messages:
    3,298
    Putting Olfred's talents to good use again I see +M
     
    ^ Top  
  20. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    not sure whether it's good - I doubt this is going to get the "most popular mod 2015" award. but as long as we are having fun making it, well, why not?
     
    ^ Top  
  21. Mozg Arcane

    Mozg
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,033
    Does the stuff in this thread work for steam SS2?

    Also give me recommends for SS2 gameplay mods, I am down for serious rebalance stuff
     
    ^ Top  
  22. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2015
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  23. Unkillable Cat Prestigious Gentleman LEST WE FORGET Patron

    Unkillable Cat
    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    18,688
    Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
    Hey voodoo47 - with the release of SCP Beta 2, I think it's OK to ask this question: What exactly was the new "silly" thing added to Ramsey Station? Was it the ability to mantle up on (and then subsequently fall) off the railing? Or is it something else?
     
    ^ Top  
  24. voodoo47 Learned

    voodoo47
    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    it's something else. getting to the place involves a bit of acrobatics (mantling), and it references a certain old FPS game - if you had a pc back in 1996, you'll know straight away once you see it.

    also, it's on the Earth map, not on the Station.
     
    ^ Top  
  25. Unkillable Cat Prestigious Gentleman LEST WE FORGET Patron

    Unkillable Cat
    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    18,688
    Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
    ...Ramsey Station is the name of the Earth map, but thanks for your help. :)

    And I knew of the game beforehand, and with your hint I finally found it. Neat.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)