Twitcher 3 is very far from the best written game ever

[Carrion]

I'll put this stuff in spoilers:

Spoiler

Given that politics is war through other means, when kingdoms are actually at war and some have disappeared entirely, I find it entirely justifiable that politics is often absent.

But they aren't absent, and that's the problem. I would be completely fine if the whole game was about Geralt's personal quest, but that is not the case. The game introduces politics but does it in the most simplistic way possible, reducing the fate of nations to a few little choices that have several problems surrounding them.

The main villain doesn't need to be a well established character. Especially in this kind of story where the Villain doesn't get the same amount of presence as does the lore around the Wild Hunt and the other world from which they come. Just because some guy started a conflict doesn't mean he'll take a major part through out the entire story.

Most of the witcher contracts have better villains and more interesting "lore" than Eredin and the Wild Hunt.

You appear to not understand that Witcher clearly means a profession as well as a group of mutants that fill that position. I guess that blew your mind somehow. She's going to kill monsters. For money. Is there something difficult to understand with this concept?

It is dumb. The mutations prevent Geralt and other witchers from dying over infected wounds or bleeding to death, something that is a constant danger in their profession. The mutations are the reason they're able to do what they do. A "normal" human like Ciri doesn't get that courtesy, and even the smallest wound has a very real chance of killing her, especially if she's fighting a monster that uses some sort of a poison. Even if you accept that she has the sklls to fight monsters, after a few years her reflexes will inevitably start to slow down, making it a really, really poor career choice. Then there's the small matter of Emhyr possibly getting interested about this ashen-haired female witcher that roams the land...

You also don't like that it's a sandbox game. Oh no. If you want linearity ignore everything and pursue the main quest line.

I have no idea what in my post could lead you to that conclusion.

Some people have no redeeming qualities. You don't have to look far to find them. I don't think every Villain ever needs to be depicted petting a puppy once to make them a well defined character.

This is true. Menge and Whoreson Junior are meant to be hated. Still, Whoreson Junior is a guy that decorates his house with butchered whore corpses. Drifting onto such clearly black-and-white territory is a misstep in a game that wants to offer tough moral choices.

Every villain looks weak and like a moron when they're defeated. I don't know why you are surprised.

Dijkstra isn't a villain. He's an intelligent character that becomes incredibly dumb when the story calls for it.

And yes, characters than become minor players after being major will often feel like shadows of themselves.

Their entire personality changes between the games.

Let's next time admit that even action popamole "RPG" can have decent story huh?

Yes. Like The Witcher 2.

 

[Ludo Lense]

The main villain doesn't need to be a well established character. Especially in this kind of story where the Villain doesn't get the same amount of presence as does the lore around the Wild Hunt and the other world from which they come. Just because some guy started a conflict doesn't mean he'll take

 

[Lhynn]

Main villain does not really even need to be an important driving force, depending on the story it can merely be a source of conflict and little else, while the whole weight of the narrative is located somewhere else.

 

[Lithium Flower]

See, Carrion is mostly spot-on and now we are actually having an interesting conversation. This thread is a great testament to the fact that in order to have a substantive discussion/critique about something, one must recall that in middle school they were taught to refer to examples from the text as opposed to repeating "game is shit/edgy/grimdark/tv-tier" ad nauseam.

 

[Carrion]

Main villain does not really even need to be an important driving force, depending on the story it can merely be a source of conflict and little else, while the whole weight of the narrative is located somewhere else.

True. Sauron is probably the most obvious example of that. TW3 is a story about the father-daughter relationship of Geralt and Ciri more than anything else, so it could very well work without a particularly strong villain.

Still, making your main villain into an evil guy in a scary suit of armour with just a few cliché one-liners spoken with a gravely voice is pretty disappointing in a game that otherwise has such strong characterization as far as the main characters are concerned.

 

[Ludo Lense]

Main villain does not really even need to be an important driving force, depending on the story it can merely be a source of conflict and little else, while the whole weight of the narrative is located somewhere else.

True. Sauron is probably the most obvious example of that. TW3 is a story about the father-daughter relationship of Geralt and Ciri more than anything else, so it could very well work without a particularly strong villain.

Still, making your main villain into an evil guy in a scary suit of armour with just a few cliché one-liners spoken with a gravely voice is pretty disappointing in a game that otherwise has such strong characterization as far as the main characters are concerned.

Terrible example. Sauron is in many ways portrayed as a force of nature and representative of a concept which in and of itself is the antagonist of the plot. Namely that power corrupts. If Sauron assumed human form and went 1v1 with Aragorn it would have been immensely stupid. Instead he is more like a tornado if you will.

Eredin has no such framing. He is a power hungry king who leads a band of inter-dimensional slaver elves to save his people by using Ciri for....the shitty plot doesn't explain but regardless, he is incredibly shallow and without any sort of depth. Witcher 3 fanboyism maybe strong but fortunately the devs are bit more reserved. Why? Because it was stated in multiple interviews that Guanter was a reaction to the villains of the base game.

 

[Carrion]

Sauron is in many ways portrayed as a force of nature and representative of a concept which in and of itself is the antagonist of the plot. — — Eredin has no such framing.

Of course, and that's one of the reasons why the former works and the latter doesn't. There was a lot of potential for building Eredin into a credible villain, as the aims of the Wild Hunt are not only in conquering new worlds but also in guaranteeing the survival of their own people. Even though Eredin is portrayed as a pretty evil guy in the books, there was room for adding some depth into him and the whole conflict. Instead, he's just a generic bad guy straight out of Villain School.

If Sauron assumed human form and went 1v1 with Aragorn it would have been immensely stupid.

A funny fact is that at one point they planned to do exactly that in the movies. They even filmed that fight. It was only in the post-production stage that they replaced Sauron with a digital cave troll.

 

[Lambach]

This is true. Menge and Whoreson Junior are meant to be hated. Still, Whoreson Junior is a guy that decorates his house with butchered whore corpses. Drifting onto such clearly black-and-white territory is a misstep in a game that wants to offer tough moral choices.

So your criticism is that a ruthless crime boss is also a sick psychopath. Yeah, I get where you're coming from. In real life, crime bosses tend to be the nicest, kindest people around, so the fact that one of them is portrayed as a legitimately depraved, sadistic fuck in a video-game is a serious writing misstep.

As for Menge, look up a real historical figure by the name of Matthew Hopkins and tell me you don't see similarities.

 

[Carrion]

So your criticism is that a ruthless crime boss is also a sick psychopath. Yeah, I get where you're coming from. In real life, crime bosses tend to be the nicest, kindest people around, so the fact that one of them is portrayed as a legitimately depraved, sadistic fuck in a video-game is a serious writing misstep.

In real life, crime bosses tend to have attributes that make them bosses. Bernard Loredo in TW2 was also a depraved, sadistic fuck and rotten to the core, but he had more than that to him and as a result was a notably more interesting character than Whoreson Junior.

Still, the real problem lies in the big picture. Cyprian Wiley being a thoroughly disgusting guy is not necessarily a bad thing in itself. I'd be fine with Menge too, if it was just him. They're horrible men, but those kinds of characters can still have their place in a story. However, together they are a part of a bigger problem, namely the one-sided portrayal of the witch hunt and the conflict that dominates the Novigrad setting. When you combine these two guys with Radovid, who is a much less sympathetic character than in the previous games, not only more ruthless but also more obsessed and insane, you get a conflict that ends up being very simplistic and ultimately much less interesting than what CDPR are capable of. It's comic book writing. All of these guys are ruthless sadists, and there's no attempt to make them seem like anything else. Even Radovid, who previously was a rather handsome guy, now has a slightly asymmetric face and a psychopath stare just to make sure you wouldn't mistake him for a reasonable man. While we're at it, I think the "other side" might've used a couple of renegade mages or other dissidents as well.

It's especially disappointing as by that point you've already run into Tamara and Graden, who are both pretty level-headed witch hunters, yet they're not used at all after you've finished your business with the Baron. I guess that's Velen vs. Novigrad in a nutshell.

 

[sser]

Main villain does not really even need to be an important driving force, depending on the story it can merely be a source of conflict and little else, while the whole weight of the narrative is located somewhere else.

True. Sauron is probably the most obvious example of that. TW3 is a story about the father-daughter relationship of Geralt and Ciri more than anything else, so it could very well work without a particularly strong villain.

Still, making your main villain into an evil guy in a scary suit of armour with just a few cliché one-liners spoken with a gravely voice is pretty disappointing in a game that otherwise has such strong characterization as far as the main characters are concerned.

Terrible example. Sauron is in many ways portrayed as a force of nature and representative of a concept which in and of itself is the antagonist of the plot. Namely that power corrupts. If Sauron assumed human form and went 1v1 with Aragorn it would have been immensely stupid. Instead he is more like a tornado if you will.

Eredin has no such framing. He is a power hungry king who leads a band of inter-dimensional slaver elves to save his people by using Ciri for....the shitty plot doesn't explain but regardless, he is incredibly shallow and without any sort of depth. Witcher 3 fanboyism maybe strong but fortunately the devs are bit more reserved. Why? Because it was stated in multiple interviews that Guanter was a reaction to the villains of the base game.

Eredin wants Ciri's power to open a huge portal to send the entire invasion through. It's actually explained a couple of times, IIRC.

 

[Lhynn]

The narrative is tight, it may be weak in some places, but its pretty tight. Which by the sheer size of the game is a feat in and on itself.
The witcher 3 production values still astound me, its such an impeccably made game.

 

[prodigydancer]

We need a Codex review on this. The Witcher 3: best writing since William Shakespeare.

 

[Ludo Lense]

to save his people by using Ciri for....the shitty plot doesn't explain but regardless.

Oh c'mon do I need to spell it out this much? Obviously that is what the saving his people part is about. The question is how?

Does he want to make a child with her like the whole Auberon thing before?

Does he want her for her placenta blood like Vilgefortz?

Does he simply want to break her mind and make her work for him?

Note he says "I'd planned to kill Zireael quickly, painlessly....But now...I shall not deny myself the pleasure." which future muddles things up.

All these questions and more are not answered.

 

[sser]

to save his people by using Ciri for....the shitty plot doesn't explain but regardless.

Oh c'mon do I need to spell it out this much? Obviously that is what the saving his people part is about. The question is how?

I just answered that -- by opening a portal so his people can come in.

Does he want to make a child with her like the whole Auberon thing before?

Does he want her for her placenta blood like Vilgefortz?

Does he simply want to break her mind and make her work for him?

Note he says "I'd planned to kill Zireael quickly, painlessly....But now...I shall not deny myself the pleasure." which future muddles things up.

All these questions and more are not answered.

These are questions of 'why' and are also answered.

When you teleport through the worlds you come into one that's been utterly destroyed by the cold -- that apocalypse is the White Frost. This inevitable doom is what those Elven folks are trying to escape. I think it's mentioned multiple times that the White Frost has killed many planets across multiple dimensions. Avallach sees Ciri not as a way to escape the doom, but to kill off the doom itself. Eredin is single minded and power hungry which is his flaw. It's why Avallach no longer works beside him. There's some power struggle between Eredin and the others, but the game does pretty quickly rush it over. Eredin has a history with both Geralt and Yennefer which is why he says a lot of cruel shit to him.

As far as his thought processes go, Eredin is a lot like Loghain in Dragon Age. Loghain was doing what he thought was right by his people but in doing so failed to see the big picture. Eredin is a little more "obviously evil" in this regard, though, and in DA they actually did something quite a bit more interesting with Loghain in the end (you could get him as your companion).

 

[Sykar]

...

The problem is that the well written games have set a very high bar that the Twitcher 3 doesn't even come close to, it doesn't matter that there aren't a lot of well written games. That's why it's very far away. Not to mention that I don't work with favorites, so "best written game ever" is a vapid statement. KotOR2, MotB, maybe Bloodlines, maybe even Redemption (I'm loathe to mention PST, but yeah, that too), for example, are on a completely different level than Twitcher 3. Answering the why of it is a very hard and almost pointless endeavor, so don't ask. Let's give an example in mediums that people are going to understand - it's like comparing Game of Thrones to Hannibal (for example), GoT (representing TW3) is lazy and simply manipulative, only good if you don't know what good is, while Hannibal is on a completely different level and can't be compared to GoT. I know decline is very favored among some Codexers, so sucking Twitcher's cock is customary, but have some respect for yourselves :p

None of the games you mentioned come even close to the sheer scale and scope of TW3. The combat in KotoR and MotB is pure garbage. Bloodlines is an average shooter and terrible 3rd person slasher at best and do not even get me started on Planescape's combat which outside of magic is outright laughable. Redemption? What was good about Redemption? It was an utterly boring Hack&Slash which did not even have any resemblence of the old Vampire:The Masquerade rules present.

And let us not even get started on graphics, presentation, etc. which blows these games out of the water, even if you account for age and compare what other games from the same year looked like in comparison.

So let's play Advocatus Diaboli and give you the argument that these games really have better writing, which I find debatable for at least Bloodlines and Redemption, it still does not prove that TW3 is badly written.

Also how many people on the Codex actually claimed that TW 3 has the best writing ever for games? I'd be curious where you get that from.

 

[funkadelik]

Stories and writing are lame. The only question is, can I press a button and do something awesome in TW3?

 

[Ludo Lense]

to save his people by using Ciri for....the shitty plot doesn't explain but regardless.

Oh c'mon do I need to spell it out this much? Obviously that is what the saving his people part is about. The question is how?

I just answered that -- by opening a portal so his people can come in.

Does he want to make a child with her like the whole Auberon thing before?

Does he want her for her placenta blood like Vilgefortz?

Does he simply want to break her mind and make her work for him?

Note he says "I'd planned to kill Zireael quickly, painlessly....But now...I shall not deny myself the pleasure." which future muddles things up.

All these questions and more are not answered.

These are questions of 'why' and are also answered.

When you teleport through the worlds you come into one that's been utterly destroyed by the cold -- that apocalypse is the White Frost. This inevitable doom is what those Elven folks are trying to escape. I think it's mentioned multiple times that the White Frost has killed many planets across multiple dimensions. Avallach sees Ciri not as a way to escape the doom, but to kill off the doom itself. Eredin is single minded and power hungry which is his flaw. It's why Avallach no longer works beside him. There's some power struggle between Eredin and the others, but the game does pretty quickly rush it over. Eredin has a history with both Geralt and Yennefer which is why he says a lot of cruel shit to him.

As far as his thought processes go, Eredin is a lot like Loghain in Dragon Age. Loghain was doing what he thought was right by his people but in doing so failed to see the big picture. Eredin is a little more "obviously evil" in this regard, though, and in DA they actually did something quite a bit more interesting with Loghain in the end (you could get him as your companion).

I love how you have to explain the plot to someone who clearly knows it.

You still haven't answered my initial question which is simply: How does Eredin want to use Ciri to open a portal?

Also:

Avallac'h is retconned back and forth. He is nothing like his character in the books and there is no reasonable presentation to justify his transition. But even with that in mind, his outlook on life is clearly fatalistic in the plane hopping mission. He says that the White Frost is the fate of every world and that the knowledge of the apocalypse will not rule over him as it does Eredin. When asked why he helps Ciri he says that she is a danger to everyone and that her power must not fall in Eredin's hand, nothing about stopping the apocalypse. Then this gets retconned in the same game by the cataclysmic ass pull that was the final White Frost segment which comes completely out of left field.

The White Frost and the prophecy are retconned also. The White Frost is a future event where the axial tilt of the planet changes and the child of Elder Blood will lead people south to survive. In the books it is hammered home that Ciri's child not Ciri herself that is the chosen one.

Eredin saying the whole "SWORD OF DESTINY" speech in the trailer literally makes no sense. Even ignoring the Witcher 1 interpretation (which Witcher 3 most certainly did), Eredin has no reason and no personality to justify this "Wrath of Khan" style hatred for Geralt and it is not even present in game. He completely ignores frozen Geralt at Kaer Morhen. In Witcher 3 the relation between the two is "that annoying bastard that keeps getting in my way", Eredin is utterly focused on Ciri.

Loghain is willfully ignorant and this is actually present in the writing, I don't find it believable but it is there. Eredin has a total of twelve lines outside of combat barks. He is not badly written in the technical sense but in the not fucking finished sense.

tl;dr Witcher 3 has the best writing=Bloody Baron is a very good character.

 

[sser]

I love how you have to explain the plot to someone who clearly knows it.

You still haven't answered my initial question which is simply: How does Eredin want to use Ciri to open a portal?

By having her use her powers. The whole game is about chasing someone who has extremely powerful teleporting powers. If you want the exact minutiae of how Eredin would use her I'm pretty sure the game doesn't go that far. Avallach gets her to willingly use her power at the end, so most likely that but with a bit more coercion. I don't think the story would have been better served by spelling it all out, IMO. From Geralt's point of view, he just knows they want her and that's really all that's needed to push the plot.

Also:

books

The games and books are separate as far as I know.

Eredin has no reason and no personality to justify this "Wrath of Khan" style hatred for Geralt and it is not even present in game. He completely ignores frozen Geralt at Kaer Morhen. In Witcher 3 the relation between the two is "that annoying bastard that keeps getting in my way", Eredin is utterly focused on Ciri.

Eredin has a total of twelve lines outside of combat barks. He is not badly written in the technical sense but in the not fucking finished sense.

Eredin is focused on Ciri because she's his lifeline. I got the feeling he doesn't give a shit about Geralt from a threat perspective. The way he walked into Kaer Morhen reminded me of Vader walking into that ship to get Leia. People of that power don't care about the pawns, and in a way their lack of care makes their determination a bit scarier. Also, Eredin was 100% about to get what he wanted and nothing was going to stop him one way or another. Had Ciri not imploded with rage the story simply would have ended there.

As for lines... dunno. Seems fine to me. He wanted Ciri and I as the player understood that. Didn't really need a big spiel about this and that shit. Pretty much everyone you talk to more or less talks for him. It's the other two lieutenants of Eredin's that are poorly written if anything.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

whats so good about bloody baron quest/characters? he is alcoholic with anger issues and his wife is a cheating whore. big fucking deal. definitely not the first time in crpgs where both sides are fucking assholes yet people are cumming over them like it was second coming of christ.

and lets not even talk about actual gameplay. watch cutscene->choose from 2 fuckng dialogue options leading to the same outcome->follow quest compass->watch another cutscene.

ffs by the time i was done with novigrad i couldnt stand anymore of those quests and "mature" writting. literally every quest giver was going to betray or lie to you. every quest was choosing between shitt and dog shitt. if you are going to put "twist" in every single storyline its not surprise anymore

 

[prodigydancer]

None of the games you mentioned come even close to the sheer scale and scope of TW3.

Yeah, TW3 is basically Skyrim+ (or, from a modder's perspective, Skyrim-).

it still does not prove that TW3 is badly written.

Decent writing != best writing ever.

 

[Sykar]

None of the games you mentioned come even close to the sheer scale and scope of TW3.

Yeah, TW3 is basically Skyrim+ (or, from a modder's perspective, Skyrim-).

it still does not prove that TW3 is badly written.

Decent writing != best writing ever.

Except Lacrymas thinks that TW 3 us utter shite in terms of writing if you read all the posts.

 

[prodigydancer]

Except Lacrymas thinks that TW 3 us utter shite in terms of writing if you read all the posts.

He's a true Codexian. Everything's shit according to him.

 

[Sykar]

Except Lacrymas thinks that TW 3 us utter shite in terms of writing if you read all the posts.

He's a true Codexian. Everything's shit according to him.

I see so essentially all games are shit and are not worth playing so this forum is essentially pointless. Gotcha!

 

[Ludo Lense]

The games and books are separate as far as I know.

The Witcher 3 literally ends the main story-line of the novels...

It is by far the most dependent of the 3 on the books to make sense of scenes with characters such as Fringilla Vigo that shows up for fanservice basically. If you haven't read the books she is just some random badly written woman.

Ciri's powers are complete bullshit, there is no foreshadowing for the rage moment. It is a "she can do this by the way!" moment.

Also Caranthir's teleportation powers far outclass Ciri's. The most she does in terms of teleportation is warp both her and Geralt. Caranthir warps an entire ship and tears holes between dimensions to let the White Frost loose. Great job on showing how "powerful" and necessary Ciri is.

 

[anvi]

To quen or not to quen, that is the quenstion.