Neverwinter Nights 2 OC Defense

[Lerk]

Value for dollar -- VALUE FOR DOLLAR -- I would say Neverwinter Nights 2 is the best Obsidian RPG of them all, because it made the most out of the most banal material while staying true to the aesthetics and norms of the setting

I'd maybe agree with you if you were referring to KOTOR2. Rushed out and hacked up as TSL was, it was still better than NWN2.

 

[Rake]

In the same way that the Eye of the World wasn't the best Wheel of Time novel, but set up great things to happen later.

Brain damage confirmed again.

 

[Lerk]

By the by, all the ~depth~ the King of Shadows has was added by ~Josh Sawyer~

This is highly relevant information.

 

[Gord]

Yeah well, I'm not a great fan of overthinking computer games.
But anyway I do think that NWN 2 OC (or NWN2 in general) is better than its reputation here.
It's a fairly typical Forgotten Realms module and works well enough as this, imho - for the extraordinary we later got MotB and to some lesser extend SoZ.

 

[laclongquan]

By the way, you can read subtext and symbolism in everything if you try hard enough.

Read me some subtext and symbolism in any Bethesda games, then.

Cause in that aspect their writing department suck dwarves' cocks

In the same way that the Eye of the World wasn't the best Wheel of Time novel, but set up great things to happen later.

Brain damage confirmed again.

Fuck you and your donkey that you rode on. Eye is the strangest out of all WoT book, and most confusing too. Mostly because it try to replicate the feel of Hobbit/Fellowship of the Ring.

 

[DeepOcean]

Value for dollar -- VALUE FOR DOLLAR -- I would say Neverwinter Nights 2 is the best Obsidian RPG of them all, because it made the most out of the most banal material while staying true to the aesthetics and norms of the setting

Just out of curiosity, did you played any other Forgotten Realms based game?You know, Baldur's Gate 2, Icewind Dale and etc. Where did you took this idea that because the setting is cliche the game must be boring as shit?

Man, your Obsidian fanboyism is so big that you make Infinitron look like a harsh and unbiased critic of Obsidian.:D

 

[eremita]

This whole thread is fucking RIDICULOUS! NWN2 OC is a generic fantasy piece of shit. OP, If by "depth" you mean "some interesting parts and story bits, then sure, there are those. But where aren't?! You'll find something interesting in majority of RPG unless they're made by retards. The thing is, there are so many bad decisions in that fucking game, so many generic, shallow and boring parts, that defending it is an act of ultimate fanboysm. Fucking Dragon Age: Origins is much better game than this in every single way (including amount of trash combat). Oh yeah, DnD rules are definetly better than shitty Biowarean in-house rules, I'll give Obsidian (I mean Wizards of the Coast actually) that.

I love majority of Obsidian game, but come on. This game is shitty...

 

[Ebonsword]

Unlike most folks here, I actually like the NWN2 OC. I probably played through it at least 4 times.

But even I won't pretend that the overall plot is some masterpiece of symbolism (the background story for the King of Shadows is pretty cool, though).

 

[Morality Games]

This whole thread is fucking RIDICULOUS! NWN2 OC is a generic fantasy piece of shit. OP, If by "depth" you mean "some interesting parts and story bits, then sure, there are those. But where aren't?! You'll find something interesting in majority of RPG unless they're made by retards. The thing is, there are so many bad decisions in that fucking game, so many generic, shallow and boring parts, that defending it is an act of ultimate fanboysm. Fucking Dragon Age: Origins is much better game than this in every single way (including amount of trash combat). Oh yeah, DnD rules are definetly better than shitty Biowarean in-house rules, I'll give Obsidian (I mean Wizards of the Coast actually) that.

I love majority of Obsidian game, but come on. This game is shitty...

I'm not that big of an Obsidian fan overall because I'm not that big of a storyfag overall. People are making wrongheaded assumptions about what my arguments entail about my tastes.

Generally speaking, almost nobody would say that the first books of most Fantasy novel trilogies are the best of their trilogy. The Eye of the World is not the greatest of the Wheel of Time, the Fellowship of the Ring is not the greatest of the Lord of the Rings, the Game of Thrones isn't the greatest of the Song of Ice and Fire. Nonetheless, the events of those novels were logical and necessary story choices given the fundamentals of their settings and what happened later.

What I said was that in terms of structure and pacing (and not symbolism, I have no idea where people acquiring this idea about symbolism) Neverwinter Nights 2 first acts were logical and necessary given the confinements of the Neverwinter campaign setting. There is no figurative meaning in that statement.

Unlike most folks here, I actually like the NWN2 OC. I probably played through it at least 4 times.

But even I won't pretend that the overall plot is some masterpiece of symbolism (the background story for the King of Shadows is pretty cool, though).

Yeah, well, I won't pretend that either.

Stuff

No need to complicate things, NVN 2 sucked because:
Combat encounter design sucked
Level design sucked
Artistic direction sucked
Story sucked (and no it wasn't because it was cliche but because all the characters sucked and had no personality unless you think that boring druid woman, funny but not so funny gnome, whinny wizard, obvious evil ranger are good characters, if this is the case you have pretty shitty taste).

They were fine given the limitations of the Neverwinter campaign setting and the challenge of making it interesting. When your entire setting is about being a beacon of civilization and egalitarianism in the middle of harsh Darwinistic environment, you have to draw upon all the elements of culture that exist in that civilization and work out how they would respond to the challenges.

Every character in your party is the sort that would exist in Neverwinter. Their motivations are the sort people in Neverwinter would have, based on the conflicts that the people of Neverwinter generally face.

 

[Rake]

In the same way that the Eye of the World wasn't the best Wheel of Time novel, but set up great things to happen later.

Brain damage confirmed again.

Fuck you and your donkey that you rode on. Eye is the strangest out of all WoT book, and most confusing too. Mostly because it try to replicate the feel of Hobbit/Fellowship of the Ring.

All WoT books are varying degrees of shit... Eye was no exception.

 

[DeepOcean]

They were fine given the limitations of the Neverwinter campaign setting and the challenge of making it interesting. When your entire setting is about being a beacon of civilization and egalitarianism in the middle of harsh Darwinistic environment, you have to draw upon all the elements of culture that exist in that civilization and work out how they would respond to the challenges.

Every character in your party is the sort that would exist in Neverwinter. Their motivations are the sort people in Neverwinter would have, based on the conflicts that the people of Neverwinter generally face.

Man, where do you get your dope? It must be good stuff, I want some.

 

[Bizarro Jimmy Olsen]

When I was much younger, I played D&D with a DM who was basically a frustrated fiction writer He dreamed of one day being a published fantasy novelist, and he used our D&D sessions as an opportunity to push his stories on us. He had the plot so strictly laid out that we, the players, had little or no choice. The story's the thing! The plot must push forward! And it made those gaming sessions kind of suck.

NWN2 (and Dragon Age and so many other RPGs of the last 10 years or so) have reminded me of that DM I used to play with. You're barely given any choices and when you are it's the blue pill and the red pill, but they're both placebos. It's basically about the game designer's ego: he's convinced he's conceived of such a wonderful story, such a moving and engrossing and compelling plot, that you won't notice or care about the lack of choices. You can't wait to see what happens in that next cut-scene.

What really concerns me is that -- and I'm assuming here because I don't keep up with the industry honchos the way most of the Codex seems to -- most of those old Obsidian guys are working on the new stuff that's supposed to be our long-awaited Incline. I fear we're going to get the same frustrated novelist stuff. "Chapter 1: It was a dark and stormy night..."

 

[Rake]

When I was much younger, I played D&D with a DM who was basically a frustrated fiction writer He dreamed of one day being a published fantasy novelist, and he used our D&D sessions as an opportunity to push his stories on us. He had the plot so strictly laid out that we, the players, had little or no choice. The story's the thing! The plot must push forward! And it made those gaming sessions kind of suck.

NWN2 (and Dragon Age and so many other RPGs of the last 10 years or so) have reminded me of that DM I used to play with. You're barely given any choices and when you are it's the blue pill and the red pill, but they're both placebos. It's basically about the game designer's ego: he's convinced he's conceived of such a wonderful story, such a moving and engrossing and compelling plot, that you won't notice or care about the lack of choices. You can't wait to see what happens in that next cut-scene.

What really concerns me is that -- and I'm assuming here because I don't keep up with the industry honchos the way most of the Codex seems to -- most of those old Obsidian guys are working on the new stuff that's supposed to be our long-awaited Incline. I fear we're going to get the same frustrated novelist stuff. "Chapter 1: It was a dark and stormy night..."

PST, KotOR2, and MotB were story focused games and they offered a good degree of choices.

 

[DeepOcean]

You're barely given any choices and when you are it's the blue pill and the red pill, but they're both placebos. It's basically about the game designer's ego: he's convinced he's conceived of such a wonderful story, such a moving and engrossing and compelling plot, that you won't notice or care about the lack of choices. You can't wait to see what happens in that next cut-scene.

All cRPGs are guilt of that in a way or another, some more, others less but that didn't stopped them from being good. People, stop creating excuses, NVN 2 is just shit.

 

[Commissar Draco]

NVN 2 is just shit.

Amen, only games which made Commissar suffer more were DA2, Avadon and Oblibion; what a waste of time. Even Obsidian agrees given that you don't need NWN2 OC character to play MotB.

 

[l3loodAngel]

They were fine given the limitations of the Neverwinter campaign setting and the challenge of making it interesting. When your entire setting is about being a beacon of civilization and egalitarianism in the middle of harsh Darwinistic environment, you have to draw upon all the elements of culture that exist in that civilization and work out how they would respond to the challenges.

Every character in your party is the sort that would exist in Neverwinter. Their motivations are the sort people in Neverwinter would have, based on the conflicts that the people of Neverwinter generally face.

Man, where do you get your dope? It must be good stuff, I want some.

Just lock him with prosper and let's not talk about this again. Your nonsense reminds me of this well know scientific article

 

[godsend1989]

I really enjoyed this game, i didnt play any other expansion for NWN 2 but this will not change my opinion on it.

 

[Rake]

NVN 2 is just shit.

Amen, only games which made Commissar suffer more were DA2, Avadon and Oblibion; what a waste of time. Even Obsidian agrees given that you don't need NWN2 OC character to play MotB.

Add NWN to your list. For all it's faults, NWN2 was better than the first one

 

[Lhynn]

Add NWN to your list. For all it's faults, NWN2 was better than the first one

You are going to have to clarify.
Which module compared to which module?

 

[Commissar Draco]

NWN1 OC? what Commissar has missed? Also NWN1 was Bioware game you don't expect much from them, games Commissar mentioned did disspointed him greatly.

 

[Morality Games]

They were fine given the limitations of the Neverwinter campaign setting and the challenge of making it interesting. When your entire setting is about being a beacon of civilization and egalitarianism in the middle of harsh Darwinistic environment, you have to draw upon all the elements of culture that exist in that civilization and work out how they would respond to the challenges.

Every character in your party is the sort that would exist in Neverwinter. Their motivations are the sort people in Neverwinter would have, based on the conflicts that the people of Neverwinter generally face.

Man, where do you get your dope? It must be good stuff, I want some.

I don't smoke, just drink. I get my bourbon from the liquor store like everyone else.

Anyway, it's all rather transparent. The companions are colorless on their own terms, but as described in an earlier post they are permutations of different aspects of the Neverwinter setting. All Obsidian companion Influence systems have some tie to the primary theme of the game they belong to. In Neverwinter Night 2's case, society.

Khelgar -- fantasy equivalent of a biker. He goes and taverns and gets into brawls while his clan and society struggle against monolithic threats. Protagonist shows him how to respect the order that both his clan and Neverwinter need to survive and administer true justice.

Elanee -- social outsider who doubts society and its institutions. Is eventually shown (and comes to respect) the power of civilization through the actions of the protagonist.

Neeshka -- belongs to the criminal underbelly of Neverwinter's lawful good society. Like most criminals, she is a social outcast who has a grudging fondness for the city despite its aversion to her. Protaginist provides her with acceptance.

Sand -- lived in a despotic society where the law was administered unfairly and arbitarily. Didn't like it and ran away. Order is everything to him in both the application of magic and the organization of society, as shown in how he moonlights as a lawyer. His betrayal of a chaotic protagonist reflects that. He respects a protagonist who respects law as the force that maintains a civilization, ahead of what's good or what's bad.

Qara -- spoiled highborn girl. Like most teenangers, just wants to have her version of a good time and doesn't have respect for society or the forces that protect it. Her betrayal of a lawful protagonist reflects that. She respects a protagonist who is in it for his own kicks, ahead of what's good or what's bad.

Casavir -- Lawful Good Paladin who justifies his renegade actions based on the premise that the people in and outside Neverwinter, not Nasher, embody the force of law he adheres to.

Bishop -- inversion of the protagonist. The protagonist has a group of companions while Bishop is the consummate loner. Both come villages and went to the city to rise up in the ranks, but Bishop's hostile relationship with his village results in them disbelieving him when he tries to warn them about how Luskan is going to destroy them, so he destroys both the village and his own men in an attempt to break all bonds and all obligations. Wants the protagonist to be like him.

Ammon Jerro -- will sacrifice his soul, his family, morality, and the order of the Planes to protect his civilization. He is the ultimate personification of the maxim, "My country, right or wrong -- but my country." He respects that the protagonist is able to protect Neverwinter without depending on infernal pacts or deals, as in, the protagonist has the strength that Ammon lacked.

The Influence system in Neverwinter Night 2's is governed around the premise of trying to keep an entire society of wayward and disaffected individuals from breaking civilization apart. The inter-party dialogues and companion quests reflect the same tensions that are always tearing Neverwinter apart in the PnP and the game.

NVN 2 is just shit.

Amen, only games which made Commissar suffer more were DA2, Avadon and Oblibion; what a waste of time. Even Obsidian agrees given that you don't need NWN2 OC character to play MotB.

No, it's sort of like the Dollars trilogy. Only the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly gets serious attention for being a great movie, and its works by itself, but all the films resonate with each other.

That's not limited just to Mask of the Betrayer though. It resontes both with the Forgotten Realms metaseries that started with Baldur's Gate and also with all Obsidian games.

Planescape: Torment -- Regret, and whether to take responsibility for your actions (good) or transcend them (evil option).

Knights of the Old Republic II -- Betrayal, and what exactly treachery is.

Mask of the Betrayer -- Justice, and whether it is a force of law or balance.

Neverwinter Nights 2 OC -- Civilization, and the forces that defend and destroy it.

 

[Infinitron]

and Grobnar.

 

[Morality Games]

and Grobnar.

Yeah, Grobnar has no purpose that I can see (or want to admit).

 

[Percy]

This is the video game equivalent of a scat fetish.

 

[throwaway]

I thought the OP (and Nwn2) had some, granted limited, merits but there is just no defending Neeshka, the walking cliche, or Qara whose only redeemable characteristic was providing you the opportunity to slaughter her.
More importantly while I like others thought there was something good about the main villain backstory the rest of the main themes are really just competent while suffering at times from extreme degrees of blandness. I really see no commentary that Kotor, Da: o or if you want to stretch it Oblivion didn't provide. The iron crisis in BG1 was a smarter problem then any of those encountered in the city of neverwinter.