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What is a cRPG? 2014 edition

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
FeelTheRads took me to task and did it concisely. I think his sign-of-a-primitive-mind diagnosis is unsupported, but maybe repeated experience has driven him to make that association.

My experience is with the kind of people that would ask the oh so deep and sarcastic "but what's art" when you say something is not art then laugh at you if you try to give an answer because "lol ur trying to define art wut a faggot". All the while, of course, claiming high and mighty that games are not art because suddenly they know what art is and games are definitely not it!

It's this same kind of people:
a bunch of ignorant and agenda-driven dilettantes and newfags came around and started proclaiming that everything from Legend of Zelda to Batman is a RPG.

That post I made probably made it look like I included you too with them and I apologize for that. The problem I had with what you said was that for some reason you seem opposed to the subject and called those who discuss it mentally ill.

Anyway, simulate or imitate PnP RPGs means absolutely zero to them. You'd invariably get an answer along the lines of "but Sims has stats and RPGs have stats why is Sims not an RPG??". Sure, the thread is called "what is an cRPG", but I assumed it referred more to RPGs in general. And if there's a definition for PnP RPGs why can't it be transferred or adapted to cRPGs instead of just pointing to PnP RPGs? Maybe then you'd have something more consistent to slam in the face of the above mentioned people.
 

hiver

Guest
Anyway, simulate or imitate PnP RPGs means absolutely zero to them. You'd invariably get an answer along the lines of "but Sims has stats and RPGs have stats why is Sims not an RPG??". Sure, the thread is called "what is an cRPG", but I assumed it referred more to RPGs in general. And if there's a definition for PnP RPGs why can't it be transferred or adapted to cRPGs instead of just pointing to PnP RPGs? Maybe then you'd have something more consistent to slam in the face of the above mentioned people.
yeah, that too ... i forgot to mention it above.

Mentioning PnP as a defining argument doesnt do shit for a lot of people that play games nowadays.
At best they will misunderstand that to mean something they see as boring - not visceral, awesome, epic, and other stupid shit like that.

and if we are to get some kind of definition - as some sort of quick concise explanation - it should work on everyone.
which is why its so hard to reach one.
 

No Great Name

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It's a fair point on creating your character for Bioshock. I forgot about that one. My bad. You can pick a class in Bioshock Infinite but I suppose that's not quite enough. How much differentiation needs to exist for the character creation to be adequate for you?

C5 is definitely addressed in Bioshock Infinite. There are skills that you gain, there are three classes you pick from, there are weapon skills. What more do you want from "C5: character development requires careful thought and planning?"
I don't remember any classes that you can pick from. What do you mean by that? Upgrading a weapon is a one time thing and that upgrade applies to every single weapon of that type that you find for the rest of the game. Once you upgrade a pistol, you will always find upgraded pistols for the rest of the game for example. And lastly, any development there is does not require careful thought and planning, any upgrade you have can never work against you, you will never be punished for making the wrong choices because any choice will still be adequate enough to get you through the game.
C6: You also have your NPC companion who you control. You make choices on when to use her abilities and how to position her. You make choices as to what weapons to use, what skills to use, how to use the environment to your advantage, etc.
You cannot control your companion and you cannot position her. The only thing you can make your companion do is use her ability during a fight only in the spots that the developers decided. You can't use it whenever and wherever you want to in a fight which is how I interpret NPC control. Also, you forgot the last part of C6 which is "...rather than the player's physical coordination skills." Practically everything you do in a fight is dependent on whether you can aim in the right direction or not.
E2: There are Voxophones (collectible item), there are armour sets, there are kinetoscopes, telescopes, infusion upgrades. All of these are things you can find which fulfill:

" E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory. There have to be more item types than quest items, weapons, ammunition and consumable stat boosters."
I forgot about the clothes that you can equip. I'll concede this point.

E5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg97Y43s4dg

They may not be huuuuuge changes but they exist and can be made with alternative outcomes. There are branches even though at the end everything is the same. But, I suppose if you mean to say that the branching has to be game changing or super important then that's fine and should probably be updated.
Branching means more than just a moment where you have a few choices that lead to the exact same outcome less than minutes later with no further consequences later in the game.
E7: E7: the gameworld can affect your party (=> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …)

Uhh... flames burn you? there are all kinds of traps and closed doors and things. To claim that this wasn't fulfilled makes me wonder who is trying hard to exaggerate.
I forgot about his one as well. Although now that I think about it, this particular element is rather vague in general.
E8: you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles (=> e.g. unlock locked areas, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …

There were definitely locked locations where you had to figure out how to et around them. There were things that needed to be done before progression could be done. Just because you don't think the game fits being an RPG (I agree, Bioshock Infinite isn't an RPG in my mind) doesn't mean that you should discount what actually exists in the game and how it fulfills the requirement.
You don't have to figure a way around them because the game does that for you by telling where to go and even giving an arrow that points in the direction you should go.
F2: F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls) - enemies move randomly, I'm pretty sure damage is a range of damage and not a set damage. I could be wrong but it seemed to me that shots would do variable damage unless they were head shots.
Not too sure about this one. That's something to look into.
F3: F3: Combat should be challenging (=> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible) - combat was challenging. Maybe you're a pro gamer with super skills or something but many of the encounters were tough for a lot of players and required them to do things like circle around, hide, ambush, use Elizabeth's abilities to the best of their ability, to switch guns, to use their powers, etc.

This criteria is so subjective it defeats the purpose. What one person finds challenging another will claim as simple or brainless.
True. Challenge is subjective as it is dependent on the player's ability and a lot of times experience. This criteria should either define what is meant by challenge or should be changed to use other terms instead of the term challenge.
 

Boxer

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true CRPG [/B]
Bahahahah. Quantified states do not exist in language definitions, dumbass. So your conundrum of a 'definition' falls on its face in the goddamn principle. Also, hypothesis of true CRPG disproven by Fantasy General, which fits all the criteria. Ololololol. Your shitty checklist doesnt even attempt to give weight to each of its members, aside from the optional parts and not.

One can only assert how good of an RPG a game is. Following the reductionist logic of definitions, that is done on 3 fundamental principles:
Characters stats - evaluated on how good a game separates players skill from character skill, including player knowledge
CnC - evaluated on how distinct the consequences of your choices are
Complexity - evaluated on how complex and functionally intertwined cnc and stats are

Everyting else is irrelevant fluff, not worthy the words written about it.
 

NotAGolfer

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NotAGolfer
I'm totally aware that the borders between CRPGs, Adventures, Rogue Likes and Strategy games are fuzzy and each genre is borrowing much from each other.
Xcom, Jagged Alliance and DeusEx are Master-examples for such hybrids.
There are no borders, not even fuzzy or shifting ones. I actually like that suggestion where you define genres with prototypes and take it from there. It's very easy to communicate so it only takes you seconds to check if you are on the same wavelength.
Everything else is very open to debate (we won't even come to an agreement about if ARPGs like Gothic are true RPGs or hybrids ffs) and this one will lead nowhere ... again.

The Battle Isle game series are neither CRPGs nor do they have any CRPG features in them btw. Having units that can level up doesn't make them less undiluted, hardcore strategy games (I'm not talking about Incubation though, not sure about that one).
 
Last edited:

Whiran

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Moving on from Bioshock Infinite because it'll descend into an argument of to what degree elements on the list are satisfied. Which, if you think about it, makes the list opinion based - which defeats the purpose of having a definitive checklist doesn't it?

Name a game that you consider NOT a CRPG. (make some arguments WHY you don't think it is a CRPG)

Then goto ALL Must Haves and Should Haves conditions of my checklist (V0.96) and make comments on it.
I think most would agree that Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic is a strategy game and not an RPG.

Given that, let's look at this game through the lens of your list to see if it fits as being an RPG.


I. A CRPG is a computer game that fulfills these criterions:

Character Development
Describes ways to change or enhance your characters in order to increase their effectiveness in the game.

Must Have
C1: you can control one or more characters - Yes, definitely. You have a main mage and then you have tons of units including heros to control.
C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats and/or abilities (=> e.g. through quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …) - yes, your heroes level up. They gain XP from completing quests (given by gods) and killing
C3: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire - yes, there are slots for: head, chest, weapon, shield, 2 trinkets, plus personal inventory
Should Have
C4: you can create your characters - Yes, you can customize your wizard
C5: character development requires careful thought and planning - yes, you need to decide if you want to go magic heavy, melee heavy, or maybe sneaky or whatever
C6: tactical use of character/party skills/abilities are the primary means of problem solving, gameworld interaction and overcoming challenges rather than the player's physical coordination skills. - yes, everything is turn based and tactical. Using the correct ability in the right situation can turn the tide of combat.


Exploration
Includes how you can move through the game world, as well as everything you can find, see, manipulate or interact with, like locations, items and other objects.

Must Have
E1: by exploring the gameworld you can find new locations - yes, the world begins as an unknown. You need to explore to reveal it.
E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory. There have to be more item types than quest items, weapons, ammunition and consumable stat boosters. - Yes, there are wide variety of items ranging from armour, weapons, and various trinkets. There are cloaks, for example, that grant floating - which isn't directly beneficial to combat.
E3: you can find information sources (=> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info) - yes, there are towers that reveal the map plus gods that give info.
Should Have
E4: there are NPCs in the game - yes, there are enemy players
E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching) - there is a primary campaign where you choose which way to go
E6: you can manipulate the game world in some way (=> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …) - yes, there are chests and things to pick up. There are portals to open and go through.
E7: the gameworld can affect your party (=> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …)
E8: you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles (=> e.g. unlock locked areas, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …) - yes, given the open world there are multiple paths to overcome blocked areas or to get to new locations.
E9: the Gameworld is simulated by consistent rules and mechanics in which the character/party can interact and explore. - yes.


Story
Concerns all narrative elements like setting, lore, plot, characters, dialogue, quests, descriptions, storyline(s) and similar, including how you can interact with them.

Must Have
S1: you can get info from information sources (=> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …) - yes, there is a campaign that has all of this.
S2: you can follow quests (=> there is at least one main quest) - yes, the campaign is a main quest
S3: you can progress through connected events (= Story) - yes, as you complete maps on the campaign you open up new ones for more story.
Should Have
S4: the story is influenced more or less by your actions and abilities - yes, if you fail a map (a region) the story is impacted plus you can pick to play the other side and get them to win.
S5: you can interact with information sources (=> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …) - yes, there are npcs to meet
S6: you can make choices in those interactions - this can be broadly defined and interpreted. Since you can follow what is suggested or do your own thing that would constitute a choice.
S7: your choices have consequences - yes, a city might remain standing or be ruined based on what you decide.
S8: advancing in the story requires thought (=> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …) - if you kill off someone that person remains dead so irreversible consequence and you need to decide if you want to or not.



Combat
Describes how combat is influenced by elements of Character Development, Exploration and Story.

Should Have
F1: Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (=> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …) - yes
F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls) - yes
F3: Combat should be challenging (=> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible) - yes



III. (Optional) Nice to Have: 115/115 = 100% (Move your mouse to reveal the content)


i. Character Development (33/33 = 100%) (Move your mouse to reveal the content)


1. Choice (13/13)

You can name your characters. - yes
You can choose a gender. - yes
You can choose looks or voice. - yes
You can choose or create through play your own class, profession or race. - yes
You can choose traits, alignment or disposition. - yes
You can choose abilities. - yes
You can choose spells. - yes
You can modify primary stats. - yes
Lots of different equipment is available. - yes
Lots of different spells or abilities are available. - yes
Abilities can unlock or block others or branch. - yes
Character classes or development paths can be changed during the game. - yes
You can have pets as party members. - non-hero units could be considered "pets" in this definition. If not there are wolves, bears, and other animals.

2. Interdependence (6/6)

(Story) Character stats can change NPC disposition towards the PC. - yes, being good means evil factions hate you, etc
(Story) Stats, abilities or spells can affect available dialogue options. - yes, there are abilities that modify relationship standings
(Story) Unique items are in the game or can be made. - yes
(Exploration) Stats, abilities or spells can affect available paths through the game world. - yes - flying can cross mountains and rivers, there are water traversing abilities, there are teleportation things
(Exploration) Stats, abilities or spells can affect the amount of things you can see, find or know in the world. - yes
(Combat) Combat can be avoided due to stats (=> e.g. enemies flee.) - yes

3. Interactivity (6/6)

You can create combos with spells or abilities. - yes
Your character's stats can be modified by using spells or abilities. - yes
Your character's afflictions can be cured by using spells or abilities. - yes
You can rest or sleep. - yes
Stats can limit in some way what you can equip or carry. - no
You can control party members or pets like your main character. - yes

4. Immersion (8/8)

You need to specialize (=> can't have everything.) - yes
You can create or choose a background story for your character. - yes
You can tweak your character lots of times over the whole game. - yes
You can wear normal clothes, not only armor. - no
Factions provide prizes for your deeds (=> e.g. houses, medals, ranks, …) - yes
Magic is in the game in some form. - yes
Your characters can be afflicted with negative status effects (=> e.g. diseases, fatigue, etc.) - yes
Your characters can eat or drink. - yes, although it's not needed, but I haven't seen a game in a long time that required eating. There are apple trees with apples that you eat to regain movement.


ii. Exploration (29/29 = 100%) (Move your mouse to reveal the content)


1. Choice (4/4)

You can follow different paths to reach a goal. - yes
You can reasonably go where you want. - yes
You can return to previously visited locations. - yes
There are few artificial borders, rare level loading. - yes

2. Interdependence (6/6)

(Character) Char development choices can affect available paths through the game world. - yes; depending how you build up a hero you can open up new locations or even new dimensions (shadow realm)
(Character) Char development choices can affect the amount of things you can see, find or know in the world. - yes
(Story) You can find and recruit new party members or tame pets. - yes
(Story) Exploring off the beaten path yields rewards, e.g. optional quests, secrets or interesting locations. - yes
(Story) You can visit and make use of social locations (=> e.g. taverns, inns, marketplaces). - yes, there are taverns in the game, arenas, other cities, circuses
(Combat) Combat can be avoided through sneaking or gameworld manipulation. - yes

3. Interactivity (10/10)

You can collect items (=> there is an inventory.) - yes
You can trade items for currency and better equipment. - no
You can interact with items. - yes
You can break or destroy items. - yes
You can repair items. - no
You can move items. - yes
You can combine or disaggregate items. - no
You can gather pieces of flora or fauna for later use. - no
You can craft equipment, spells or items (e.g. alchemy). - yes
Inventory size is limited. - yes

4. Immersion (9/9)

There is a place you can call home. - yes, your starting city
You can explore lots of unique, beautiful and interesting locations. - this is incredibly subjective but yes
Locations can evolve or change (=> e.g. town / destroyed town) - yes
There are non-hostile creatures (=> e.g. wildlife) - yes
Types of creatures make sense in the area they are encountered in. - yes
Creatures are wandering persistently (=> no random encounters). - yes
Looting makes sense (no shield on a dead wolf.) - yes
Time is measured (=> e.g. there is a day/night cycle). - yes-ish, there are years and time moves on
Time affects the game world (=> e.g. some things are only available at night). - no


iii. Story (29/29 = 100%) (Move your mouse to reveal the content)


1. Choice (6/6)

You can reasonably do what you want when you want to do it (=> quest order doesn't matter much.) - yes
Some quests depend on each other. - yes
Some quests rule others out. - yes (god of war quests cancel out god of order quests)
Quests can be solved in more than one way. - yes, it's up to you to figure out how to do them
You can join factions, though not all at the same time. - yes (alliances)
You can make moral choices (or romance choices). - yes - do you raze a town? do you exterminate an entire race?

2. Interdependence (7/7)

(Character) Character stats can change NPC disposition towards the PC. - yes
(Character) Char development choices can affect available dialogue options. - not really but YES because dialogue via diplomacy is impacted by character development choices
(Character) Unique items are in the game or can be made. - yes (this is redundant)
(Exploration) You can find and recruit new party members or tame pets. - yes (redundant)
(Exploration) Exploring off the beaten path yields rewards, e.g. optional quests, secrets or interesting locations. - yes (redundant)
(Exploration) You can visit and make use of social locations (=> e.g. taverns, inns, marketplaces). - yes
(Combat) Combat can be avoided through dialogue. - yes

3. Interactivity (6/6)

Dialogue is fleshed out (=> there are multiple options in one conversation). - this has already been asked
There is more than one game ending. - yes
You can have conversations with party members or take care of pets. - yes
There are many side quests. - yes
State of the game changes in accordance with the player's actions. - yes
You can solve or create conflicts between factions. - yes

4. Immersion (10/10)

Lore is provided (=> context, faction rules, laws, history, …) - yes
There are different factions (races, groups, guilds). - yes
NPCs or party members are well developed (=> expansive background stories, etc.) - subjective but yes
NPCs or party members interact with each other. - yes, they interact with one another but probably not how it is meant
NPCs have schedules. - no
There are surprises and twists. - sure? yes? no? does any game? subjective
The storyline is character-driven (=> character development within the narrative.) - yes
There is a proper ending or sense of closure. - yes
There are memorable antagonists. - sure? subjective
Your main character is defined. - yes subjective


iv. Combat (Meta) (24/24 = 100%) (Move your mouse to reveal the content)


1. Character Development (9/9)

Combat can be avoided due to stats (=> e.g. enemies flee). - yes, already listed
You can control at least six characters. - yes (how does controlling at LEAST six characters have anything to do with an RPG?)
Your characters are specialized (=> different battlefield roles). - yes
Enemies are specialized (=> require different tactics.) - yes
Resource management is necessary. - yes
Units have multiple attack options. - yes
Delayed attacks are possible (=> counterattacks, attacks of opportunity, etc.) - yes
Movement-focused special abilities are available. - yes
Units have multiple resistance options (=> e.g. armor, elemental resistance, etc.) - yes

2. Exploration (9/9)

Combat can be avoided through sneaking or gameworld manipulation. - yes, already listed
You can get a good sense of space (=> e.g. there is a grid.) - yes
Combat can start at variable distances. - yes
Directional facing plays a role (=> e.g. more damage from behind, flanking). - yes
Terrain is variable (=> e.g. natural choke points, cover, combat bonuses). - yes
Terrain can be manipulated (=> e.g. you can create barriers). - yes
There are elevation effects (=> e.g. combat bonuses from higher grounds.) - yes
There can be zones or items on the battlefield that reward units who get there in time. - yes; occupying the highground rewards you with better sight / archery bonuses. Being on top of a wall, etc etc
There can be Zones of Danger on the battlefield (=> e.g. environmental damage). - yes

3. Story (6/6)

Combat can be avoided through dialogue. - yes
Combat can have different win scenarios (=> e.g. keep NPC alive, defend town). - yes
Combat can have side objectives aside from "win/loss". - yes; like bring X to Y? By definition successfully completing an objective is winning the goal
Characters don't die immediately but can be revived during combat. - yes
Decisions on the battlefield have character development consequences. - yes
There are memorable bosses. - yes; subjective
 

Abelian

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Basically HiddenX, your list of all possible game features in history can only tell someone what kind of a cRPG a cRPG game is. (while your main Must Have list is ridiculous)

It does not answer the question "what is a cRPG game?" in the sense of providing a definition of it.
Or ... anything substantial in that sense, really.

Some of the actually important features are only contained in the "should have" list - and explained pretty badly too.

- on the other hand, if you only meant to create a list of features that can point at what kind of a cRPG game some RPG game is - then its a pretty detailed list, where only "Should haves" and "Must haves" should exchange places.
I see your point about the important features being listed "should haves," but I think it is due to necessity based on how wide the spectrum of cRPGs is. The "should haves" are much more restrictive than the "must haves," since for every listed "should have" somebody will point out a cRPG that doesn't have it.

The "must haves" represent the intersection of all cRPGs, so they must be very general and loose criteria. Sure, the "must haves" allow some non-cRPGs to qualify, but that's where HiddenX's mention of fuzzy set theory and my mentioning of prototype theory comes in: the question of how much RPG-like a game is will be determined by the "should haves."
 

hiver

Guest
which only means you made that intentionally so you can include anything and everything.

I see your point about the important features being listed "should haves," but I think it is due to necessity based on how wide the spectrum of cRPGs is.
ill repeat one more fucking time... the list of Must haves contains features that ANY FUCKING Game has.

it is not a list of rpg features, it is a list of game features.
 

HiddenX

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Whiran

thank you for your effort.
It seem Ages of Wonders has a lot of CRPG elements.

And it would be called Strategic Tactical CRPG (see informative tags) by definition 0.96.

Is this completely wrong?

I could built in an easy "Kill-Switch" to exclude strategy games into the character category:
We have this genre tag already in the informative tag list.
Strategic:
additional troop (not your party) management available

Another characteristic feature of strategy games that comes to mind is the so called "battlefield view", but this can be found in some CRPGs, too.
Have you another suggestion for a condition to exclude Strategy games?
What is a feature that every Strategy has, that doesn't exist in CRPGs?
 

Akratus

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I think, having to define the games with 4 pages of text is definition enough. Just compare that to "You race cars" or "You shoot guns".
 

Lhynn

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I think, having to define the games with 4 pages of text is definition enough. Just compare that to "You race cars" or "You shoot guns".
We are so past that point that it went from it not being funny, to being funny, to not being funnny again.
 

HiddenX

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Thanks for the feedback ->

C1 changed -> exclude pure strategy games with troops
E1+ E9 = new E1 (was too similar)
E8 changed (was too vague)
S4 changed (was too vague)
F3 changed (was to subjective)

Definition of a CRPG (V0.97)

The three core categories Character Development, Exploration and Story that need to be applied and quantified to determine if an interactive computerised game can be defined as a Computer Role Playing Game (hereafter referred to as CRPG) are listed to show the necessary component elements and qualifying factors. Any proposed or purported CRPG must contain all three core categories and their Must Have (MH) elements fulfilled to achieve CRPG status.

These core categories must maintain some form of progressive nature that will improve from when the game starts and leads to a conclusive game ending.

Each core category and the auxiliary category Combat also has a related Should Have (SH) sub list, the reviewer should make a comment if a sub list item is not fulfilled. Should one or more (SH) not be fulfilled the game is most likely a special CRPG (see Tags) or a CRPG light.

If all (MH) and (SH) are fulfilled there's no further discussion necessary -> the game is a true CRPG.

Optional elements are listed in the Nice to Have (NtH) list. With it you get precise information which optional CRPG elements are implemented in the game. A general game info questionnaire is added too, to do some rating.


I. A CRPG is a computer game that fulfills these criterions:

Character Development
Describes ways to change or enhance your characters in order to increase their effectiveness in the game.
  • Must Have
    C1:
    you can control one or more unique characters (Not only uniform troops)
    C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats and/or abilities (=> e.g. through quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …)
    C3: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
  • Should Have
    C4:
    you can create your characters
    C5: character development requires careful thought and planning
    C6: tactical use of character/party skills/abilities are the primary means of problem solving, gameworld interaction and overcoming challenges rather than the player's physical coordination skills.

Exploration
Includes how you can move through the game world, as well as everything you can find, see, manipulate or interact with, like locations, items and other objects.
  • Must Have
    E1:
    the Gameworld is simulated by consistent rules and mechanics in which the character/party can interact, explore and find new locations.
    E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory. There have to be more item types than quest items, weapons, ammunition and consumable stat boosters.
    E3: you can find information sources (=> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info)
  • Should Have
    E4:
    there are NPCs in the game
    E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching)
    E6: you can manipulate the game world in some way (=> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …)
    E7: the gameworld can affect your party (=> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …)
    E8: to progress or overcome obstacles (=> e.g. unlock locked areas, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …) you have to enhance your characters abilities or solve some quests or puzzles.

Story
Concerns all narrative elements like setting, lore, plot, characters, dialogue, quests, descriptions, storyline(s) and similar, including how you can interact with them.
  • Must Have
    S1:
    you can get info from information sources (=> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …)
    S2: you can follow quests (=> there is at least one main quest)
    S3: you can progress through connected events
  • Should Have
    S4:
    the story is influenced by your actions and character stats/abilities/skills
    S5: you can interact with information sources (=> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …)
    S6: you can make choices in those interactions
    S7: your choices have consequences
    S8: advancing in the story requires thought (=> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …)


Combat
Describes how combat is influenced by elements of Character Development, Exploration and Story.
  • Should Have
    F1:
    Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (=> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …)
    F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls)
    F3: Combat should provide some challenge (=> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible)

Tags are computer game tags that qualify the CRPG label even further:

  • Adventure-RPG: the main emphasis of the game are on Exploring and Story, less on Character Development
  • Rogue-like: the main emphasis of the game are on Exploring and Character Development, less on Story. Often features permanent death if a character dies and random generated levels.
  • Hack & Slash: many enemies, most of them easy to kill, respawning of enemies, much loot
  • J-RPG: Manga Style graphics, turn based combat, Eastern style CRPG
  • W-RPG: Western style CRPG
  • MMORPG: Many players are questing simultaneously online
  • Puzzle-RPG: the game's main emphasis are puzzles
  • Non-Combat: the game features no combat
  • Action: the combat is real time without pause
  • Strategic: additional troop (not your party) management available
  • Tactical: the game puts an emphasis on player tactical skill over character skill, often multiple squads (party splitting) are possible
  • Sneaker: combat is possible, avoiding it with stealth is better
  • Thief-like: combat is possible, avoiding it with stealth is better, thief-skills are essential (lock picking, ambush, hiding, sneaking,…)
  • Shooter: combat is mostly ranged and requires hand eye coordination and reflexes from the player
  • Sandbox: open environment where a lot of content is organized around simulation rather than story
  • Dungeon Crawler: closed environment where a lot of content is organized around dungeon interaction (traps, levers, buttons, teleports, riddles…) rather than story.
  • Fantasy
  • Historical
  • Modern
  • Post-apoc
  • Sci-fi
  • Steampunk
  • Technofantasy
  • Real World
  • Massive
  • Single + MP
  • Single-player
  • Co-Op
  • PvP
  • PvE
  • Real-time with pause: the real time combat can be paused any time
  • Real-time: the combat is real-time -> Action CRPG
  • Turn-based: the combat is turn-based
  • 1st-person
  • 3rd-person
  • Isometric
  • Top down
  • Floating camera: adds rotational control allowing full 3D navigation
  • Full control: full control over every party members action in combat
  • AI control: you only control part of the party directly, others are controlled by AI while they may accept general commands
  • subdued
  • realistic
  • whimsical
  • dazzling
1. Choice (13/13)

  • You can name your characters.
  • You can choose a gender.
  • You can choose looks or voice.
  • You can choose or create through play your own class, profession or race.
  • You can choose traits, alignment or disposition.
  • You can choose abilities.
  • You can choose spells.
  • You can modify primary stats.
  • Lots of different equipment is available.
  • Lots of different spells or abilities are available.
  • Abilities can unlock or block others or branch.
  • Character classes or development paths can be changed during the game.
  • You can have pets as party members.
2. Interdependence (6/6)

  • (Story) Character stats can change NPC disposition towards the PC.
  • (Story) Stats, abilities or spells can affect available dialogue options.
  • (Story) Unique items are in the game or can be made.
  • (Exploration) Stats, abilities or spells can affect available paths through the game world.
  • (Exploration) Stats, abilities or spells can affect the amount of things you can see, find or know in the world.
  • (Combat) Combat can be avoided due to stats (=> e.g. enemies flee.)
3. Interactivity (6/6)

  • You can create combos with spells or abilities.
  • Your character's stats can be modified by using spells or abilities.
  • Your character's afflictions can be cured by using spells or abilities.
  • You can rest or sleep.
  • Stats can limit in some way what you can equip or carry.
  • You can control party members or pets like your main character.
4. Immersion (8/8)

  • You need to specialize (=> can't have everything.)
  • You can create or choose a background story for your character.
  • You can tweak your character lots of times over the whole game.
  • You can wear normal clothes, not only armor.
  • Factions provide prizes for your deeds (=> e.g. houses, medals, ranks, …)
  • Magic is in the game in some form.
  • Your characters can be afflicted with negative status effects (=> e.g. diseases, fatigue, etc.)
  • Your characters can eat or drink.
1. Choice (4/4)

  • You can follow different paths to reach a goal.
  • You can reasonably go where you want.
  • You can return to previously visited locations.
  • There are few artificial borders, rare level loading.
2. Interdependence (6/6)

  • (Character) Char development choices can affect available paths through the game world.
  • (Character) Char development choices can affect the amount of things you can see, find or know in the world.
  • (Story) You can find and recruit new party members or tame pets.
  • (Story) Exploring off the beaten path yields rewards, e.g. optional quests, secrets or interesting locations.
  • (Story) You can visit and make use of social locations (=> e.g. taverns, inns, marketplaces).
  • (Combat) Combat can be avoided through sneaking or gameworld manipulation.
3. Interactivity (10/10)

  • You can collect items (=> there is an inventory.)
  • You can trade items for currency and better equipment.
  • You can interact with items.
  • You can break or destroy items.
  • You can repair items.
  • You can move items.
  • You can combine or disaggregate items.
  • You can gather pieces of flora or fauna for later use.
  • You can craft equipment, spells or items (e.g. alchemy).
  • Inventory size is limited.
4. Immersion (9/9)

  • There is a place you can call home.
  • You can explore lots of unique, beautiful and interesting locations.
  • Locations can evolve or change (=> e.g. town / destroyed town)
  • There are non-hostile creatures (=> e.g. wildlife)
  • Types of creatures make sense in the area they are encountered in.
  • Creatures are wandering persistently (=> no random encounters).
  • Looting makes sense (no shield on a dead wolf.)
  • Time is measured (=> e.g. there is a day/night cycle).
  • Time affects the game world (=> e.g. some things are only available at night).
1. Choice (6/6)

  • You can reasonably do what you want when you want to do it (=> quest order doesn't matter much.)
  • Some quests depend on each other.
  • Some quests rule others out.
  • Quests can be solved in more than one way.
  • You can join factions, though not all at the same time.
  • You can make moral choices (or romance choices).
2. Interdependence (7/7)

  • (Character) Character stats can change NPC disposition towards the PC.
  • (Character) Char development choices can affect available dialogue options.
  • (Character) Unique items are in the game or can be made.
  • (Exploration) You can find and recruit new party members or tame pets.
  • (Exploration) Exploring off the beaten path yields rewards, e.g. optional quests, secrets or interesting locations.
  • (Exploration) You can visit and make use of social locations (=> e.g. taverns, inns, marketplaces).
  • (Combat) Combat can be avoided through dialogue.
3. Interactivity (6/6)

  • Dialogue is fleshed out (=> there are multiple options in one conversation).
  • There is more than one game ending.
  • You can have conversations with party members or take care of pets.
  • There are many side quests.
  • State of the game changes in accordance with the player's actions.
  • You can solve or create conflicts between factions.
4. Immersion (10/10)

  • Lore is provided (=> context, faction rules, laws, history, …)
  • There are different factions (races, groups, guilds).
  • NPCs or party members are well developed (=> expansive background stories, etc.)
  • NPCs or party members interact with each other.
  • NPCs have schedules.
  • There are surprises and twists.
  • The storyline is character-driven (=> character development within the narrative.)
  • There is a proper ending or sense of closure.
  • There are memorable antagonists.
  • Your main character is defined.
1. Character Development (9/9)

  • Combat can be avoided due to stats (=> e.g. enemies flee).
  • You can control at least six characters.
  • Your characters are specialized (=> different battlefield roles).
  • Enemies are specialized (=> require different tactics.)
  • Resource management is necessary.
  • Units have multiple attack options.
  • Delayed attacks are possible (=> counterattacks, attacks of opportunity, etc.)
  • Movement-focused special abilities are available.
  • Units have multiple resistance options (=> e.g. armor, elemental resistance, etc.)
2. Exploration (9/9)

  • Combat can be avoided through sneaking or gameworld manipulation.
  • You can get a good sense of space (=> e.g. there is a grid.)
  • Combat can start at variable distances.
  • Directional facing plays a role (=> e.g. more damage from behind, flanking).
  • Terrain is variable (=> e.g. natural choke points, cover, combat bonuses).
  • Terrain can be manipulated (=> e.g. you can create barriers).
  • There are elevation effects (=> e.g. combat bonuses from higher grounds.)
  • There can be zones or items on the battlefield that reward units who get there in time.
  • There can be Zones of Danger on the battlefield (=> e.g. environmental damage).
3. Story (6/6)

  • Combat can be avoided through dialogue.
  • Combat can have different win scenarios (=> e.g. keep NPC alive, defend town).
  • Combat can have side objectives aside from "win/loss".
  • Characters don't die immediately but can be revived during combat.
  • Decisions on the battlefield have character development consequences.
  • There are memorable bosses.
1. Interface

  • How often is gameplay interrupted with loading? (rarely, sometimes, often)
  • How would you rate the game's interface? (intuitive, clunky, …)
2. Difficulty

  • How difficult is the game? (easy, normal, hard)
  • Can difficulty be adjusted?
  • How balanced is trading? (good, not-so-good, bad)
  • How balanced is combat? (good, not-so-good, bad)
  • How much reloading is necessary to beat the game (little, some, much)
  • How good is the AI? (good, medium, bad)
  • How much handholing is there? (little, some, much)
3. Gameplay features

  • Are there Easter Eggs?
  • Are there minigames?
4. Exploration

  • Is Auto-Mapping available?
  • Is Fast Travelling available?
  • Are there quest markers?
  • Is there a quest compass?
  • How much realism is there? (little, balanced, much)
  • How much looting is in the game? (little, some, much)
5. Character Development

  • Are there useless skills?
  • How would you rate character progression? (fast, balanced, slow)
  • Is there auto-leveling of some sort?
6. Story

  • Does the story follow clichéd paths?
  • How linear is the game? (linear, network-like, non-linear)
  • How would you rate the suspense? (boring, gripping, fun, …)
  • Are there pre-selected options (choice is reduced)?
7. Combat

  • How much fighting is in the game? (little, some, much)
  • Grinding: Is filler combat necessary to develop your character?
 
Last edited:

Abelian

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I see your point about the important features being listed "should haves," but I think it is due to necessity based on how wide the spectrum of cRPGs is.
ill repeat one more fucking time... the list of Must haves contains features that ANY FUCKING Game has.

it is not a list of rpg features, it is a list of game features.
I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition. :)

Here is a list of must-haves that, in my opinion, do not apply to many RTS or simulation games. I also think they do not apply to most adventure games, with the exception of E2 and E4.

C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats and/or abilities (=> e.g. through quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …)
C3: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory.
E4: there are NPCs in the game
E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching)
S4: the story is influenced more or less by your actions and abilities
S6: you can make choices in interactions
S7: your choices have consequences

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
P.S. Does this thread remind anyone else of Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition skit?
 

HiddenX

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Abelian

keep in mind that the Must Haves C1/ E1/ E2 and the Should Have S4 are even harder conditions now in V0.97.

C1: you can control one or more unique characters (Not only uniform troops)
E1: the Gameworld is simulated by consistent rules and mechanics in which the character/party can interact, explore and find new locations.
E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory. There have to be more item types than quest items, weapons, ammunition and consumable stat boosters.
S4: the story is influenced by your actions and character stats/abilities/skills
 

hiver

Guest
Oy, oy!

x5h0fpK.jpg


You cant set up a joke and then do the punchline yourself. Only the SPANISH INQUISITION CAN DO THAT!

gefuBW0.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

NotAGolfer

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Here is a list of must-haves that, in my opinion, do not apply to many RTS or simulation games. I also think they do not apply to most adventure games, with the exception of E2 and E4.

C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats and/or abilities (=> e.g. through quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …)
C3: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory.
E4: there are NPCs in the game
E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching)
S4: the story is influenced more or less by your actions and abilities
S6: you can make choices in interactions
S7: your choices have consequences
A decent dungeon crawler CRPG does neither need E4 nor E5 or any of the S points (except S6 if you mean choosing a different party composition; you either fail or not depending on your party and how you use its strengths and overcome its weaknesses). Most of the existing ones didn't have the stuff you claim they must have.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
P.S. Does this thread remind anyone else of Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition skit?
HiddenX iterating again and again on his useless checklist?
No, not at all. :lol:
 

HiddenX

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NotAGolfer

Even Wizardry 1 meets the Must Haves

S1: you can get info from information sources (-> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …)
S2: you can follow quests (-> there is at least one main quest)
S3: you can progress through connected events

Dungeon crawlers are one cause for E4 to E8 and S4 To S8 are only Should Haves.

According to the definition violating Should Haves means: qualify the CRPG tag with more tags:

Wizardry 1 is a Dungeon Crawler CRPG with turn based combat

see informative tag under subgenre:
Dungeon Crawler: closed environment where a lot of content is organized around dungeon interaction (traps, levers, buttons, teleports, riddles…) rather than story.

and combat style:
Turn-based: the combat is turn-based

before critisizing something please read it completely.

Bier & Bratwurst? - schöner Tag zum Grillen heute... :)
 
Last edited:

NotAGolfer

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NotAGolfer

Even Wizardry 1 meets the Must Haves

S1: you can get info from information sources (-> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …)
S2: you can follow quests (-> there is at least one main quest)
S3: you can progress through connected events

Dungeon crawlers are one cause for E4 to E8 and S4 To S8 are only Should Haves.

According to the definition violating Should Haves means: qualify the CRPG tag with more tags:

Wizardry 1 is a Dungeon Crawler CRPG with turn based combat

see informative tag under subgenre:
Dungeon Crawler: closed environment where a lot of content is organized around dungeon interaction (traps, levers, buttons, teleports, riddles…) rather than story.

and combat style:
Turn-based: the combat is turn-based

before critisizing something please read it completely.
I didn't respond to your checklist, but Abelian's.
Maybe yours is better, dunno, I still don't buy that approach and don't believe that you have to define CRPGs as more than games revolving around character building while using every other genre imaginable (like squad based TB games ... that would be similar to PnP, action (everything "twitchy"), adventures etc.) for gameplay and always taking into account the character skills (you need them for your char to get better enabling him to overcome road blocks preventing story progression, or to achieve other goals worth your while). Pulling these connected requirements out of context and putting them in some checklist is counterproductive imo.

Bier & Bratwurst? - schöner Tag zum Grillen heute... :)
In der Tat. :D
Unser erster Urlaubstag auf Balkonien, heut Mittag gabs Steak und Bratwürstchen. ^^
 
Last edited:

Abelian

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HiddenX and NotAGolfer , I purposely used HiddenX's V0.96 checklist instead of V0.97, since when hiver posted the comment to which I replied, V0.96 was the most recent version. Anyway, my point was just to show that while criteria are loose, they can still a non-trivial amount of games.

Also, while some games that fulfill many of the requirements on the checklist and are not considered cRPG's, I posit that it simply means that they have RPG elements (although, it seems that nowadays every other game claims to have RPG elements). For example, I found games squad-based tactics games like Commandos, XCOM, and Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate to have an RPG vibe, probably because they are all based/influenced by the PnP war games.

Ich bin nicht Deutsch, aber ich liebe Steak und Würstchen.
 

Abelian

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Well, now that we have that settled, we should turn our attention to another existential question: What can change the nature of an RPG?
 

HiddenX

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Well, now that we have that settled, we should turn our attention to another existential question: What can change the nature of an RPG?

Poison for RPGs:

Handholding
Quest markers
Auto Leveling of characters
Auto Leveling of enemies
Predefined colored good/evil answers in dialogs
Dumbed down inventory
No choices
No consequences
Action sequences
Stupid minigames
Meaningless Stats
Linearity in Exploring & Story
Mindless Action combat
No Skill checks
Endless Respawning
...
 

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