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Oh Clocky... youre so fucking stupid and retarded. Which is the reason for that idiotic arrogance and complete dumbfucking blindness.
Didnt i tell you and can anticipate all youre going to say? i can see you inside out. You know why? because youre a fucking simpleton asshole. Whose only schtick is to try and hide that you have nothing of value to say about anything - so thats why you are playing the role of a stupid, shitfaced troll that you are.
Assume the position please.
1. he improved the character in the creation screen.
- therefore the character progression was made inside the game.
Good natured and skilled traits. - improves speech, barter, first aid, etc.
7 end, Int 8, Ag 10 and Luck 9.
lockpick, sneak and speech tagged.
2. - Runs from every random encounter.
3. - ho ho ho - goes into mutant base gets a level - LEVELS UP - increases Stealing at 3:25.
4. levels up AGAIN at 7:22 - chooses a trait, increases lock-picking.
5. Raises sneak skill AGAIN at 9:22
showing clockwork head into his ass speed run completed.
not to mention use of extreme meta knowledge which means he had to run through the whole game many times, or read a walkthrough from someone who did.
Not to mention that this isnt even 1% of the game - what is left?
Is this section he played through an RPG?
How come if you can only go through same fucking less then 1%? without any differences whatsoever?
also, my old and so far only axiom: never, ever make any conclusions or assumptions about anything - EVER- while youre going through the bad (whatever that may be). What the hell do you expect to come up with while in such a state?
I'm not really interested in participating in this discussion, but I'm going to throw this idea out here and let you guys chew on it if you want to. Note that I am not saying that this is what I, Infinitron, personally believe.
Here's the idea:
"CRPGs" don't actually exist. Only RPG elements exist. What the RPG Codex typically calls "real RPGs" or "oldschool RPGs" are actually just isometric tactical combat games with RPG elements. The fact that the genre of game known as "CRPGs", at one point in their history, became strongly associated with isometric tactical combat is nothing more than happenstance.
Obvious personal bias, nothing else. Desperate attempt to make it seem like games that suck are somehow good or True RPGs.
And in order to achieve that ...you would posit that RPGs dont exist at all?
:applaause:
by the way, nobody here is claiming that various games that do not have those specific features are not real RPGs.
Mostly its claims that they completely suck as games and as RPGs.
The thing is that isometric PoV and tactical combat enhance the importance of character skill instead of player skills.
While games with FP view and more twitch combat unavoidably increase player skill importance and influence while they decrease character skills - bethesda games, bioware games, etc.
Such games also exponentially increase the cost to make them - because graphics become very important - because such a game must sell in millions of copies to return investment, let alone profit. Which invariably lowers the amounts of resources spent on other things.
and the stronger the player skill overrides character skills - the less of a TRUE tm RPG game it is. Because that decreases the amount of believable and diverse options - since player skill is enough to get all of the content in one go.
That's all irrelevant since the video wasn't supposed to demonstrate how Fallout doesn't require you to progress (of course it does, that's the reason I was wondering about a progression-less one in the first place), as it was a reply to this point:
I'm not saying that you could take Fallout as-is, just block access to the character sheet, and play it normally. The game expects you to level up, so outside of a gimmicky low-level run it's not doable.
In which you are obviously talking about the real Fallout that requires progression and not the progression-less one I imagined. Pay a little more attention to your own damn points next time. Take your Ritalin, if necessary.
I bet you felt really smart pointing out the exact moments where he increases his skills, didn't you? CSI Hiver
not to mention use of extreme meta knowledge which means he had to run through the whole game many times, or read a walkthrough from someone who did.
Not to mention that this isnt even 1% of the game - what is left?
Is this section he played through an RPG?
How come if you can only go through same fucking less then 1%? without any differences whatsoever?
Completely linear castrated "game" is a RPG, EH?
Not to mention it was said in the context of his actual claim that without ANY character progression Fallout would still be a RPG game.
vs,
stupid backpedaling retard level fake translation by an utter imbecile:
"You cant complete the game at extremely low levels"
- while i made similar speed runs myself in reality. And played the games upside down.
All that while it is him that backpedals from his original claim and tries to desperately and disgustingly grasp for obvious strawman arguments.
...yes...that's what the entire conversation was about when you butted in...then you brought up how low level runs can't be done in Fallout, and I proved you wrong for shits and giggles...what are you trying to say now?...
...you...you don't even know what the hell is going on, do you? Jesus Christ
Genuinely wondering about your sanity now, hiver. This is not regular dumbfuck behavior, this is outright fucked in the head. Crack smoker fucked in the head. Yelling at the sky fucked in the head.
no, i did not bring up how low level runs cannot be done in fallout you stupid lying mega retarded turd.
I said that such extreme low level runs (which you characterized as a run without any character progression) cannot be done in Fallout - as that video you showed proves. Since that was not such a extreme low level run and whatever it was it wasnt Fallout - and you just confessed that you meant only some kind of imagined Fallout.
>Dumbfuck backpedaling retard.
suuuuuuuuck it, suckit goood. Eat your own stupidity.
I was using skill points as a substitute for progression in general, but okay. What I'm asking is, assuming nothing about your character changes after chargen screen, why does it (start to) become a simulator?
Because the nature of the game shifts from character progression to playing a static character, thats more akin to either sims, strategy games, shooters, etc. What do you think fnv would be without it? as i said before, it becomes stalker, bioshock, etc. Point is, it isnt an RPG anymore. Character development is what makes this genre, downgrade it to just another feature of the game and it becomes something else with an rpg element tacked on, remove it and it cuts all ties to the genre.
I said that such extreme low level runs (which you characterized as a run without any character progression) cannot be done in Fallout - as that video you showed proves. Since that was not such a extreme low level run and whatever it was it wasnt Fallout - as you just confessed that you meant only some kind of imagined Fallout. >Dumbfuck backpedaling retard.
I was using skill points as a substitute for progression in general, but okay. What I'm asking is, assuming nothing about your character changes after chargen screen, why does it (start to) become a simulator?
Because the nature of the game shifts from character progression to playing a static character, thats more akin to either sims, strategy games, shooters, etc. What do you think fnv would be without it? as i said before, it becomes stalker, bioshock, etc. Point is, it isnt an RPG anymore. Character development is what makes this genre, downgrade it to just another feature of the game and it becomes something else with an rpg element tacked on, remove it and it cuts all ties to the genre.
So you're saying that even if you still have total freedom to distribute your character points before the game begins and the game will react to those choices, as long as you don't get to increase those skills and stats, it's not really a RPG anymore. Well, I disagree. Doesn't look like either of us will budge, but that's alright. It was supposed to be an offhand "what if" remark before the two dumbfucks walked in, anyway.
Just out of curiosity, are there any RPG's that don't feature stats? It seems to me that stats play a huge role in separating player skill from character skill.
Took me a while to decipher what the fuck hiver meant with that last cryptic shitpost. Turns out he put me (back?) on his ignore list. Oh god, please, not the list! I can't take it!
Calls me a dumbfuck after I stopped replying -> gets reply -> puts it on me.
Fuck off, retarded troll. My opinions on what is an RPG are in this thread. If you're too much of a dumbshit to read them it's not my problem. Your replies to anything, as proven in that reply to Lhynn above, are "well I dont agree".
So, you're a useless troll who thinks that asking the same retarded questions over and over again is stumping people because you don't get the answer you like.
For me an RPG is when the game reacts to the character(role) I play in a meaningful way. Of course that's really just what I'd consider RPG mechanics, some games can have the mechanics and not be RPGs, because the focus is clearly on another genre and the rest is an afterthought.
This can be in and out of character creation, combat or story, if it can be applied to all of those things it's probably the kind of CRPG I'd be interested in playing.
I'm a day away and this gets a total mess
But I worked on the definition.
E9 is new - thank you Trasher!
E2 is changed - thank you Morrandir!
Definition of a CRPG (V0.96)
The three core categories Character Development, Exploration and Story that need to be applied and quantified to determine if an interactive computerised game can be defined as a Computer Role Playing Game (hereafter referred to as CRPG) are listed to show the necessary component elements and qualifying factors. Any proposed or purported CRPG must contain all three core categories and their Must Have (MH) elements fulfilled to achieve CRPG status.
These core categories must maintain some form of progressive nature that will improve from when the game starts and leads to a conclusive game ending.
Each core category and the auxiliary category Combat also has a related Should Have (SH) sub list, the reviewer should make a comment if a sub list item is not fulfilled. Should one or more (SH) not be fulfilled the game is most likely a special CRPG (see Tags) or a CRPG light.
If all (MH) and (SH) are fulfilled there's no further discussion necessary -> the game is a true CRPG.
Optional elements are listed in the Nice to Have (NtH) list. With it you get precise information which optional CRPG elements are implemented in the game. A general game info questionnaire is added too, to do some rating.
I. A CRPG is a computer game that fulfills these criterions:
Character Development
Describes ways to change or enhance your characters in order to increase their effectiveness in the game.
Must Have
C1: you can control one or more characters C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats and/or abilities (=> e.g. through quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …) C3: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
Should Have
C4: you can create your characters C5: character development requires careful thought and planning C6: tactical use of character/party skills/abilities are the primary means of problem solving, gameworld interaction and overcoming challenges rather than the player's physical coordination skills.
Exploration
Includes how you can move through the game world, as well as everything you can find, see, manipulate or interact with, like locations, items and other objects.
Must Have
E1: by exploring the gameworld you can find new locations E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory. There have to be more item types than quest items, weapons, ammunition and consumable stat boosters. E3: you can find information sources (=> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info)
Should Have
E4: there are NPCs in the game E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching) E6: you can manipulate the game world in some way (=> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …) E7: the gameworld can affect your party (=> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …) E8: you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles (=> e.g. unlock locked areas, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …) E9: the Gameworld is simulated by consistent rules and mechanics in which the character/party can interact and explore.
Story
Concerns all narrative elements like setting, lore, plot, characters, dialogue, quests, descriptions, storyline(s) and similar, including how you can interact with them.
Must Have
S1: you can get info from information sources (=> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …) S2: you can follow quests (=> there is at least one main quest) S3: you can progress through connected events (= Story)
Should Have
S4: the story is influenced more or less by your actions and abilities S5: you can interact with information sources (=> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …) S6: you can make choices in those interactions S7: your choices have consequences S8: advancing in the story requires thought (=> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …)
Combat
Describes how combat is influenced by elements of Character Development, Exploration and Story.
Should Have
F1: Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (=> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …) F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls) F3: Combat should be challenging (=> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible)
Tags are computer game tags that qualify the CRPG label even further:
Adventure-RPG: the main emphasis of the game are on Exploring and Story, less on Character Development
Rogue-like: the main emphasis of the game are on Exploring and Character Development, less on Story. Often features permanent death if a character dies and random generated levels.
Hack & Slash: many enemies, most of them easy to kill, respawning of enemies, much loot
J-RPG: Manga Style graphics, turn based combat, Eastern style CRPG
W-RPG: Western style CRPG
MMORPG: Many players are questing simultaneously online
Puzzle-RPG: the game's main emphasis are puzzles
Non-Combat: the game features no combat
Action: the combat is real time without pause
Strategic: additional troop (not your party) management available
Tactical: the game puts an emphasis on player tactical skill over character skill, often multiple squads (party splitting) are possible
Sneaker: combat is possible, avoiding it with stealth is better
Thief-like: combat is possible, avoiding it with stealth is better, thief-skills are essential (lock picking, ambush, hiding, sneaking,…)
Shooter: combat is mostly ranged and requires hand eye coordination and reflexes from the player
Sandbox: open environment where a lot of content is organized around simulation rather than story
Dungeon Crawler: closed environment where a lot of content is organized around dungeon interaction (traps, levers, buttons, teleports, riddles…) rather than story.
Fantasy
Historical
Modern
Post-apoc
Sci-fi
Steampunk
Technofantasy
Real World
Massive
Single + MP
Single-player
Co-Op
PvP
PvE
Real-time with pause: the real time combat can be paused any time
Real-time: the combat is real-time -> Action CRPG
Turn-based: the combat is turn-based
1st-person
3rd-person
Isometric
Top down
Floating camera: adds rotational control allowing full 3D navigation
Full control: full control over every party members action in combat
AI control: you only control part of the party directly, others are controlled by AI while they may accept general commands
subdued
realistic
whimsical
dazzling
1. Choice (13/13)
You can name your characters.
You can choose a gender.
You can choose looks or voice.
You can choose or create through play your own class, profession or race.
You can choose traits, alignment or disposition.
You can choose abilities.
You can choose spells.
You can modify primary stats.
Lots of different equipment is available.
Lots of different spells or abilities are available.
Abilities can unlock or block others or branch.
Character classes or development paths can be changed during the game.
You can have pets as party members.
2. Interdependence (6/6)
(Story) Character stats can change NPC disposition towards the PC.
(Story) Stats, abilities or spells can affect available dialogue options.
(Story) Unique items are in the game or can be made.
(Exploration) Stats, abilities or spells can affect available paths through the game world.
(Exploration) Stats, abilities or spells can affect the amount of things you can see, find or know in the world.
(Combat) Combat can be avoided due to stats (=> e.g. enemies flee.)
3. Interactivity (6/6)
You can create combos with spells or abilities.
Your character's stats can be modified by using spells or abilities.
Your character's afflictions can be cured by using spells or abilities.
You can rest or sleep.
Stats can limit in some way what you can equip or carry.
You can control party members or pets like your main character.
4. Immersion (8/8)
You need to specialize (=> can't have everything.)
You can create or choose a background story for your character.
You can tweak your character lots of times over the whole game.
You can wear normal clothes, not only armor.
Factions provide prizes for your deeds (=> e.g. houses, medals, ranks, …)
Magic is in the game in some form.
Your characters can be afflicted with negative status effects (=> e.g. diseases, fatigue, etc.)
Your characters can eat or drink.
1. Choice (4/4)
You can follow different paths to reach a goal.
You can reasonably go where you want.
You can return to previously visited locations.
There are few artificial borders, rare level loading.
2. Interdependence (6/6)
(Character) Char development choices can affect available paths through the game world.
(Character) Char development choices can affect the amount of things you can see, find or know in the world.
(Story) You can find and recruit new party members or tame pets.
(Story) Exploring off the beaten path yields rewards, e.g. optional quests, secrets or interesting locations.
(Story) You can visit and make use of social locations (=> e.g. taverns, inns, marketplaces).
(Combat) Combat can be avoided through sneaking or gameworld manipulation.
3. Interactivity (10/10)
You can collect items (=> there is an inventory.)
You can trade items for currency and better equipment.
You can interact with items.
You can break or destroy items.
You can repair items.
You can move items.
You can combine or disaggregate items.
You can gather pieces of flora or fauna for later use.
You can craft equipment, spells or items (e.g. alchemy).
Inventory size is limited.
4. Immersion (9/9)
There is a place you can call home.
You can explore lots of unique, beautiful and interesting locations.
Locations can evolve or change (=> e.g. town / destroyed town)
There are non-hostile creatures (=> e.g. wildlife)
Types of creatures make sense in the area they are encountered in.
Creatures are wandering persistently (=> no random encounters).
Looting makes sense (no shield on a dead wolf.)
Time is measured (=> e.g. there is a day/night cycle).
Time affects the game world (=> e.g. some things are only available at night).
1. Choice (6/6)
You can reasonably do what you want when you want to do it (=> quest order doesn't matter much.)
Some quests depend on each other.
Some quests rule others out.
Quests can be solved in more than one way.
You can join factions, though not all at the same time.
You can make moral choices (or romance choices).
2. Interdependence (7/7)
(Character) Character stats can change NPC disposition towards the PC.
(Character) Char development choices can affect available dialogue options.
(Character) Unique items are in the game or can be made.
(Exploration) You can find and recruit new party members or tame pets.
(Exploration) Exploring off the beaten path yields rewards, e.g. optional quests, secrets or interesting locations.
(Exploration) You can visit and make use of social locations (=> e.g. taverns, inns, marketplaces).
(Combat) Combat can be avoided through dialogue.
3. Interactivity (6/6)
Dialogue is fleshed out (=> there are multiple options in one conversation).
There is more than one game ending.
You can have conversations with party members or take care of pets.
There are many side quests.
State of the game changes in accordance with the player's actions.
You can solve or create conflicts between factions.
4. Immersion (10/10)
Lore is provided (=> context, faction rules, laws, history, …)
There are different factions (races, groups, guilds).
NPCs or party members are well developed (=> expansive background stories, etc.)
NPCs or party members interact with each other.
NPCs have schedules.
There are surprises and twists.
The storyline is character-driven (=> character development within the narrative.)
There is a proper ending or sense of closure.
There are memorable antagonists.
Your main character is defined.
1. Character Development (9/9)
Combat can be avoided due to stats (=> e.g. enemies flee).
You can control at least six characters.
Your characters are specialized (=> different battlefield roles).
Enemies are specialized (=> require different tactics.)
Resource management is necessary.
Units have multiple attack options.
Delayed attacks are possible (=> counterattacks, attacks of opportunity, etc.)
Movement-focused special abilities are available.
Units have multiple resistance options (=> e.g. armor, elemental resistance, etc.)
2. Exploration (9/9)
Combat can be avoided through sneaking or gameworld manipulation.
You can get a good sense of space (=> e.g. there is a grid.)
Combat can start at variable distances.
Directional facing plays a role (=> e.g. more damage from behind, flanking).
Terrain is variable (=> e.g. natural choke points, cover, combat bonuses).
Terrain can be manipulated (=> e.g. you can create barriers).
There are elevation effects (=> e.g. combat bonuses from higher grounds.)
There can be zones or items on the battlefield that reward units who get there in time.
There can be Zones of Danger on the battlefield (=> e.g. environmental damage).
3. Story (6/6)
Combat can be avoided through dialogue.
Combat can have different win scenarios (=> e.g. keep NPC alive, defend town).
Combat can have side objectives aside from "win/loss".
Characters don't die immediately but can be revived during combat.
Decisions on the battlefield have character development consequences.
There are memorable bosses.
1. Interface
How often is gameplay interrupted with loading? (rarely, sometimes, often)
How would you rate the game's interface? (intuitive, clunky, …)
2. Difficulty
How difficult is the game? (easy, normal, hard)
Can difficulty be adjusted?
How balanced is trading? (good, not-so-good, bad)
How balanced is combat? (good, not-so-good, bad)
How much reloading is necessary to beat the game (little, some, much)
How good is the AI? (good, medium, bad)
How much handholing is there? (little, some, much)
3. Gameplay features
Are there Easter Eggs?
Are there minigames?
4. Exploration
Is Auto-Mapping available?
Is Fast Travelling available?
Are there quest markers?
Is there a quest compass?
How much realism is there? (little, balanced, much)
How much looting is in the game? (little, some, much)
5. Character Development
Are there useless skills?
How would you rate character progression? (fast, balanced, slow)
Is there auto-leveling of some sort?
6. Story
Does the story follow clichéd paths?
How linear is the game? (linear, network-like, non-linear)
How would you rate the suspense? (boring, gripping, fun, …)
Are there pre-selected options (choice is reduced)?
7. Combat
How much fighting is in the game? (little, some, much)
Grinding: Is filler combat necessary to develop your character?
Just out of curiosity, are there any RPG's that don't feature stats? It seems to me that stats play a huge role in separating player skill from character skill.
There are CRPGs that work with abilties/skills only instead of traditional stats. Most CRPGs feature stats and skills of some sort where the skills often depend on the stats in some way. I played some exotic games (I think they were JRPGs) in which character stats were completely replaced by equipment stats.
So you're saying that even if you still have total freedom to distribute your character points before the game begins and the game will react to those choices, as long as you don't get to increase those skills and stats, it's not really a RPG anymore.
Is the sims an RPG? what about divekick, is divekick an RPG? are there any RPGs that dont let you progress your character past character creation? (if it even has character creation).
Well, I disagree. Doesn't look like either of us will budge, but that's alright. It was supposed to be an offhand "what if" remark before the two dumbfucks walked in, anyway.
True enough, but it is an interesting question nevertheless, because its the real answer to the question the OP made, what is an RPG? not what do you think is, or what do you think an RPG must have.
I am a librarian, to me RPG is just a tag, it does not tell me anything about the quality of the game, but it does tell me what to expect. And what i can expect from the RPG "Nebula VII" or the RPG "Monster master" or any other random rpg is character progression, im not sure if it will have dialogue, or character creation, or how much reactivity will i find (if at all), inventory (not even sure if it will have items) or if it will feature a main quest, or if it will be an open world, or a sandbox, or a mix of both, but im p. sure they will feature some form of character growth.
i know its a broad definition, but genres are meant to be broad characterizations of stuff that share qualities. we have subgenres, like cRPGs, ARPGs, JRPGs, dungeon crawlers, etc. To further describe the game, we also have classic mechanics like turn based, real time, real time with pause, phase based (?). or how it looks, blobber, isometric, first person, third person, etc.
Then what is their primary purpose (aside from min-maxing )? I thought that stats are supposed to be an abstraction of a character's attributes, skills, and abilities.
Stats, skills, traits, abilities, gender, race etc. characterize a charcacter and often limit the roles/professions the character is able to chose.
The progression/degression of stats, skills and abilties over time shows (simulates in a way) how the characters develops by roleplaying/questing/fighting.
Stats, skills, traits, abilities, gender, race etc. characterize a charcacter and often limit the roles/professions the character is able to chose.
The progression/degression of stats, skills and abilties over time shows (simulates in a way) how the characters develops by roleplaying/questing/fighting.
At the end of the day the problem with your "definition" is that it is not a definition.
It's a checklist.
That's all it is.
A game can hit every single one of your criteria and still not be an RPG therefore your "definition" is not a useful definition since it doesn't define anything.
A lot of games that are not considered RPGs meet all of your "must have" requirements and all of your "optional" criteria. There are a plethora of examples of games that are not RPGs fulfilling every one of your criteria.
So, all of this leads me to wonder: what is the point of listing out all the possible features that RPGs have had in the past thirty-five years when you are still not coming to any kind of comprehensive definition of what an RPG is?
)? I thought that stats are supposed to be an abstraction of a character's attributes, skills, and abilities.
