The Japs do everything better

[Lyric Suite]

They are both edited and assembled sequences of audio and images displayed on screens in an order determined before screening by its creator(s)

That's not what i fucking meant.

Here, let me rephrase it. Anime is an inferior and less serious artform to true cinema.

 

[Lyric Suite]

It's true, anime and film are incomparable. I actually care about anime lmao

Fucking weaboos you all deserve to get shot.

 

[GamerCat_]

They are both edited and assembled sequences of audio and images displayed on screens in an order determined before screening by its creator(s)

That's not what i fucking meant.

Here, let me rephrase it. Anime is an inferior and less serious artform to true cinema.

Anime and cinema are fundamentally the same artform and prior comments you've made about art on this forum make it obvious that you don't meaningfully appreciate cinema or fine art. You only appreciate art as a fetish. Your idea of "true cinema" is whatever you believe it will be empowering to be seen supporting.

 

[Lyric Suite]

They are both edited and assembled sequences of audio and images displayed on screens in an order determined before screening by its creator(s)

That's not what i fucking meant.

Here, let me rephrase it. Anime is an inferior and less serious artform to true cinema.

Anime and cinema are fundamentally the same artform

But they are not on the same level, because anime is for kids and cinema is for adults.

 

[GamerCat_]

They are both edited and assembled sequences of audio and images displayed on screens in an order determined before screening by its creator(s)

That's not what i fucking meant.

Here, let me rephrase it. Anime is an inferior and less serious artform to true cinema.

Anime and cinema are fundamentally the same artform

But they are not on the same level, because anime is for kids and cinema is for adults.

One of these is for kids. One is for adults.

 

[Morenatsu.]

One of these is for kids. One is for adults.

They're both for manchildren


I used to watch more serious stuff back in the day, but now I only watch animu for little kids about talking animals.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

> Berserk
> Genocyber
> Devilman
> For children
Lol, lmao even.

I mean, I guess they could be, from a German fairy tale perspective. Just not from your typical modern idea of what constitutes as "children's / family friendly entertainment"

 

[BosanskiSeljak]

Weebs need to be exterminated in the most painful way possible, prolonging all suffering. Pedophiles, emotionally and mentally stunted retards who cling onto the lowest form of media (even lower than the marvel consoomer manchildren) but their cope is so strong they've created some mass delusion amongst themselves that it's actually a higher art form.

 

[Lyric Suite]

> Berserk
> Genocyber
> Devilman
> For kids
Lol, lmao even.

Yes. Juvenile entertainment is what all those are. Try hard violence is generally a thing for immature people.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

It depends on your definition of art

What do you regard to be art?

 

[Morenatsu.]

You have to be brain damaged to hate anime

 

[GamerCat_]

Genocyber's great. It's Terminator, Akira, The Thing, Metropolis and Devilman all at once. The Japanese indeed do everything better.

Like running games inside a computer, tryhard violence is something the Japanese learned from America. They then built their own tradition out of it which completely overtook the original.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Eh, I found genocyber to be a bit much for me. There was that hospital scene that I really didn't like.
Its from that era of early 90s ultra violent OVAs that I'm not a big fan of overall. I get that a lot of people call Berserk ultra violent, but really it's actually quite tame in comparison and does have a story and characters to offer.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Yes, as I may have said already, something RPGs have in common with much media other than video games. Many RPGs are heavily multimedia and are mostly appreciated for their non-game elements. With the game being a best possible attempt at making it real at scale, or offering a novel experience within the greater idea. Why I keep suggesting that things other than RPGs should be of interest to RPG fans if the appreciation isn't fetishistic.

I've disagreed with others in the past about this. The same people who talk about how physical media was so great because you could spend afternoons reading the manual or gazing longingly at the map will often espouse inexplicably reductionist visions of what a game is. God forbid I use terms like "fantasy" and "illusion" to talk about a ROLEPLAYING game. Lilura represents the hilarious extreme of this position, spending her entire time writing about RPGs yet claiming RPGs are shit because their combat falls short of squad-based tactical games.

I'm once again misrepresenting Lilura to force her out of hiding. Please, I'm a huge fan! Let me serenade outside your window!

Also worthy of consideration are roguelikes. Games like Dwarf Fortress and CDDA are still abstract, they have stats and such, but they've also gone off the deep end in simulating aspects of reality, to the point where many consider them "not fun anymore". In fact, everyone seems to have a different opinion on what constitutes "too much" in this regard. The CDDA community is now split into "simulationist" and "game design" camps, for example.

This is what I meant about certain creators becoming fetishistic. What exactly are these guys doing at this point when they keep adding? What does this depth of simulation mean to them?

I think the devs find it genuinely fun to create complex, interwoven systems like that. They're building a thing, they're proud of it. It's easier to explain it from their perspective; after all, they're autistic coders, fun for them is making code work. The inevitable crisis manifests in the players. Most people who'd play a game like this agree it's fun to build a solar-powered, armored death mobile, or to mutate into an octopus after drinking sewer water. Where else can you do that? Not everyone wants to watch their vitamin intake so they don't get sick, or spend hours organizing their pockets with keybinds.

I don't think there's a ready answer for what is "too much" or "not enough", it's highly specific. With these iterative development games, the player is forced to confront the question of "what is this game about, anyway?". Many decide to rollback to a previous version, to install mods, install a forked variant of the game, etc. Something similar to this can be seen in mainstream games with long modding histories. Vanilla Morrowind is often considered just a starting point by fans. From their viewpoint, the game has been in development for 20 years. The choice of mods often says a lot about the player.

Before derailing this topic too much, let me just note that these seem like things that preoccupy Western game development more than the Japanese. They like their simulations too, but they apparently see it as its own separate thing. None of the JRPGs I've played give any thought to stuff like "what other towns does this town trade with?" or "what kind of character would be able to use a computer?". It's OK, I don't play them for that, even if I can't help notice some things, such as "where do people that visit the Gold Saucer in FF7 come from?". That's unavoidable when you grow up playing Ultima VII.

It is a tendency which carries over from game-logic to world-logic. They're very comfortable with making accommodations to form. Final Fantasy can just be like that. I love it. The Gold Saucer is amazing.

Yes, it is. I'm glad they didn't make it "plausible" at the expense of their original creative vision. This approach works in Final Fantasy, it'd be very disappointing in some western games.

 

[Lyric Suite]

It depends on your definition of art

What do you regard to be art?

If we are talking about art in the "higher" sense, i'd say the central element is the nature of what is being expressed combined with the craft (or rather genius) required to bring it about. Sometimes this genius is a result of individual talent. Sometimes it is contained in the forms used themselves, as in the case of sacred art (though who knows where the forms originate).

But when it comes to games i don't think they even qualify as art at all. What is being expressed by Tetris? Some will say, what about games like Torment? Isn't the writing in that game art? Yes, the writing is, but not the game. You could probably take a championship match of chess and add all sorts of art, graphics, music or even a great narrative over it, and maybe those embellishments might even result in a more compelling experience but in truth you didn't do anything to change what chess is in essence.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Tetris is sacred art.

 

[Saldrone]

Weebs need to be exterminated in the most painful way possible, prolonging all suffering. Pedophiles, emotionally and mentally stunted retards who cling onto the lowest form of media (even lower than the marvel consoomer manchildren) but their cope is so strong they've created some mass delusion amongst themselves that it's actually a higher art form.

Not only specefically weebs. Japanophiles in general are reddit-tier cancerous

 

[GamerCat_]

Eh, I found genocyber to be a bit much for me. There was that hospital scene that I really didn't like.
Its from that era of early 90s ultra violent OVAs that I'm not a big fan of overall. I get that a lot of people call Berserk ultra violent, but really it's actually quite tame in comparison and does have a story and characters to offer.

Berserk is really in a class of its own.

Genocyber is the strange happy accident of two remarkable craftsmen/artists (Koichi Ohata and Sho Aikawa) being applied to the same fairly stock junk OVA premise and elevating the thing with the sheer amount of character they imbue their work with. Ohata's designs and Aikawa's unrepentant chud misanthropy.

It depends on your definition of art

What do you regard to be art?

If we are talking about art in the "higher" sense

Nobody said that.

, i'd say the central element is the nature of what is being expressed combined with the craft (or rather genius) required to bring it about. Sometimes this genius is a result of individual talent. Sometimes it is contained in the forms used themselves, as in the case of sacred art (though who knows where the forms originate).

Abysmal. 4/10. See Mister Norwood after class.

But when it comes to games i don't think they even qualify as art at all.

Why not?

What is being expressed by Tetris?

Tetris is not an expressive work. The art in it is how elegant and brilliant a game it is. If Tetris isn't art, can a watch be art?

Some will say, what about games like Torment? Isn't the writing in that game art? Yes, the writing is,

Why? Does writing make something art? Is Frieren art? It has writing.

but not the game.

The game part is shit (I also don't care for then writing).

You could probably take a championship match of chess and add all sorts of art, graphics or even a great narrative over it, and maybe those embellishments might even result in a more compelling experience in truth you didn't do anything to change what chess is in essence.

What a dumb, dumb, dumb line of approach.

Again, this is the closest fit to the line you want to take (assuming there's any good faith here, massive leap).

 

[Ash]

As for Japanese games, outside of outliers like FromSoft, i still struggle and will likely never come to terms with them. For me reality > fun. When my friend tried to get me into shmups the ones i instantly latched on where the first two DoDonPachi games. Why? They felt grounded, with realistic looking visuals and level design etc. I played five seconds of Tohou and when i saw it was just pure abstraction with retarded animu shit on top of it i instantly quit.

I'm currently playing Nioh and while it is an entertaining game it's not even in the same planet as Sekiro for me. It's ironic since it seems i have a little bit of talent for arcade stuff but it's still not "my" thing.

Oof. Sad to witness a lost soul. Are you sure you're not just understandably offended by low effort anime artstyles and cringey stylization like I am? There are still lots of Japanese GOATs with nice art style and down to earth stylization, especially late 90s. I don't necessarily want realistic, that is misguided, but tasteful, grounded and mature to a degree. Even if fantasy themes. I just don't want pedo shit, low detail art, and retarded cringey stylization. In summary, I dont want games made by tasteless dweebs, the western equivalent being Bioware games or Fable (among many others).

Even though you do not deserve it as you are talking shit without having a fucking clue, I will push you in the right direction with some samples. I wont bother with modern games as you're clearly already exploring what little good there is while ignoring history:

Resident Evil 2 (1998):

Spoiler

Parasite Eve (1998):

Spoiler

Devil May Cry (2001):

Spoiler

Final Fantasy 7 (1997):

Spoiler

Ninja Gaiden (2004):

Spoiler

Brahma Force (1996):

Spoiler

Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (1997):

Spoiler

Silent Hill (1998):

Spoiler

If you haven't played these games (and many more) you simply have no idea what the Japanese are capable of.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Some will say, what about games like Torment? Isn't the writing in that game art? Yes, the writing is,

Why? Does writing make something art? Is Frieren art? It has writing.

but not the game.

The game part is shit (I also don't care for then writing).

This bit is exactly why i don't engage in pyramid quoting, least of all with faggots who like to argue for the sake of arguing.

So you start with a strawman and end with a non-sequitor after splitting a single sentence into two parts drepriving each of their context.

Who the fuck would want to engage with this kind of shit?

 

[GamerCat_]

Yes, as I may have said already, something RPGs have in common with much media other than video games. Many RPGs are heavily multimedia and are mostly appreciated for their non-game elements. With the game being a best possible attempt at making it real at scale, or offering a novel experience within the greater idea. Why I keep suggesting that things other than RPGs should be of interest to RPG fans if the appreciation isn't fetishistic.

I've disagreed with others in the past about this. The same people who talk about how physical media was so great because you could spend afternoons reading the manual or gazing longingly at the map will often espouse inexplicably reductionist visions of what a game is. God forbid I use terms like "fantasy" and "illusion" to talk about a ROLEPLAYING game. Lilura represents the hilarious extreme of this position, spending her entire time writing about RPGs yet claiming RPGs are shit because their combat falls short of squad-based tactical games.

I'm once again misrepresenting Lilura to force her out of hiding. Please, I'm a huge fan! Let me serenade outside your window!

I enjoyed the old pre-fandom Fallout wiki more than playing Fallout 1 and 2. All the pictures and ways that the world simulates its life laid bare. Great stuff. Wikis used to be really fun places.

Also worthy of consideration are roguelikes. Games like Dwarf Fortress and CDDA are still abstract, they have stats and such, but they've also gone off the deep end in simulating aspects of reality, to the point where many consider them "not fun anymore". In fact, everyone seems to have a different opinion on what constitutes "too much" in this regard. The CDDA community is now split into "simulationist" and "game design" camps, for example.

This is what I meant about certain creators becoming fetishistic. What exactly are these guys doing at this point when they keep adding? What does this depth of simulation mean to them?

I think the devs find it genuinely fun to create complex, interwoven systems like that. They're building a thing, they're proud of it. It's easier to explain it from their perspective; after all, they're autistic coders, fun for them is making code work. The inevitable crisis manifests in the players. Most people who'd play a game like this agree it's fun to build a solar-powered, armored death mobile, or to mutate into an octopus after drinking sewer water. Where else can you do that? Not everyone wants to watch their vitamin intake so they don't get sick, or spend hours organizing their pockets with keybinds.

I don't think there's a ready answer for what is "too much" or "not enough", it's highly specific. With these iterative development games, the player is forced to confront the question of "what is this game about, anyway?". Many decide to rollback to a previous version, to install mods, install a forked variant of the game, etc. Something similar to this can be seen in mainstream games with long modding histories. Vanilla Morrowind is often considered just a starting point by fans. From their viewpoint, the game has been in development for 20 years. The choice of mods often says a lot about the player.

The white man has this problem with building the World on a Wire. The Japanese never seem to have a problem with what is this about? It's indeed all highly specific. Too much or not enough. It depends why you're working. A lot of western PC games are basically a white guy fucking around at a computer, following the patterns and trails of game design but actually just making stuff. Trying to veer these two tendencies into each other haphazardly tends to have questionable results. Things that are fun to fuck around with until you hit the why-wall? Maybe people should consider explicitly developing these kinds of projects as engines or tools rather than games. Then sooner or later some more artsy autist will realise it's perfect for his really specific vision (not necessarily a Japanese person). The project zomboid team obviously don't know what they're doing beyond adding features to an engine. Never make the story. Some other guy has a zombie movie in his head he'll never get to film. Maybe he can crowbar it into shape with their engine. Who knows?

I wrote a bit of this post and then wandered off to other stuff so I'm a bit scattered. Another discussion about the possibilities of modding in relation to artists and technicians could be a lot of fun.

Before derailing this topic too much, let me just note that these seem like things that preoccupy Western game development more than the Japanese. They like their simulations too, but they apparently see it as its own separate thing. None of the JRPGs I've played give any thought to stuff like "what other towns does this town trade with?" or "what kind of character would be able to use a computer?". It's OK, I don't play them for that, even if I can't help notice some things, such as "where do people that visit the Gold Saucer in FF7 come from?". That's unavoidable when you grow up playing Ultima VII.

It is a tendency which carries over from game-logic to world-logic. They're very comfortable with making accommodations to form. Final Fantasy can just be like that. I love it. The Gold Saucer is amazing.

Yes, it is. I'm glad they didn't make it "plausible" at the expense of their original creative vision. This approach works in Final Fantasy, it'd be very disappointing in some western games.

Final Fantasy has more conventions than giant chickens, people named 'cid', and standing in a line to fight. It's beyond expected that incredible things exist in isolation with no explanation or plausibility in the world of Final Fantasy. They can and do accomplish a lot with that established leeway and faith from their audience. It's fantastic.

 

[Ash]

I am still waiting for a high effort anime game.

Why can't Japanese anime-inspired art styles in video games look like this:

Pictured: Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Dorohedoro, Nausicaa: Valley of the Wind, Ninja Scroll, Appleseed, Cyber City OEDO 808 File 2.

It would be absurdly expensive, but it is doable.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

If we are talking about art in the "higher" sense, i'd say the central element is the nature of what is being expressed combined with the craft (or rather genius) required to bring it about.

So your definition is in agreeance with most common notion (which as been the dominant one since the 17th century)
Which holds that Art is an activity that involves creative or imaginative talent in order to produce a work expressive of conceptual ideas and evaluated by its degree of technical proficiency, beauty and emotional power (plus the merit of said ideas)

Videogames still fit in this definition
Perhaps not all, but I think most do and that one could still make a good argument for the rest

What is being expressed by Tetris?

Logistical excellence
Though admittedly this is closer to the most ancient definition of art (an equivalent of skill or craft), which you have disregarded
Although Tetris makes evident the universality of Mathematics

Some will say, what about games like Torment? Isn't the writing in that game art? Yes, the writing is, but not the game.

The game reinforces the themes of the writting and the writting shapes the game
Though the game part is "superior" because it could survive without the writting, while the writting would fail outside of the game as it wasn't created to be independant of the game
Therefore, the game is the key artistic element as its what gives the writting meaning
And I say this as someone who doesn't like PS:T

Also play Pathologic 2

You could probably take a championship match of chess and add all sorts of art, graphics, music or even a great narrative over it, and maybe those embellishments might even result in a more compelling experience but in truth you didn't do anything to change what chess is in essence.

We're kinda back at the start of the argument, again the question of "why mechanics prevent art" remains
Still, to move this along I'll take your example

All those addicional qualities enchancing the match expand the context of the match and produce artistic expressions
But ultimately it was the game's mechanics which dictated those qualities (because they had to be made to accumadete them, not the other way around) and determined the resulting expressions
In conclusion, the mechanical nature is the fundamental element of this artitic experience

Further more, Chess still fits with the above definition - its a creative activity that expresses conceptual ideas (ideas even more "tangible" than many present in famous works of art, since chess deals with Tactics) and emotional catharsis, through the exercise of logical and mathemical finesse

Also, I think the logic from the previous argument could still be applied here...

 

[Ash]

Pretending video games can't be art is some peak pretentious pseudo-intellectual bullshit LMAO. Even as far back as the late 80s/early 90s it was pretty much definitively proven in my book. Perhaps if you don't live under a gaming rock!

 

[Lyric Suite]

I don't see how video games fit that notion, not as qua games.

The writing in Torment is art but the writing is not the "game" and could exist just as well outside of it.

Tetris is not art. Pong is not art. Once you reduce games to the essential element that makes them games you have removed any conception of art. You can add art to a game and it can make the experience of playing the game better but doesn't make the game itself art. I loved the music in the arcade version of Tetris:



And in fact the music was one of the main reasons i found the game attractive as a kid. But the game is still not art. Just because you added Bach to your game doesn't mean Tetris was intended to express what the music is expressing:



Certainly not via the gameplay. When i downloaded the mobile version of Tetris it had shitty techno music i instantly despised. But other than that the game was still the same thing.