Interview Undrentide interview at VE3D

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide

<A href="http://www.ve3d.com/">VoodooExtreme</a> have gotten themselves a little <a href="http://www.ve3d.com/Articles.aspx?Mode=Never">chit-chat</A> with the chaps at <A href="http://www.bioware.com">BioWare</a> about <A href="http://nwn.bioware.com/shadows/">Shadows of Undrentide</a>. Not really much new in this one, but it does mention there's no plans for a demo and stuff like this:
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<blockquote><b>How about new PC classes?</b>
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All of the Prestige Classes have something cool to bring to the table. The Arcane Archer, Blackguard, Assassin, Harper Scout, and Shadowdancer are all unique classes which offer some pretty cool abilities. The Arcane Archer, for example, has a Hail of Arrows attack which hits every enemy on-screen with a single arrow. Seeing the flurry of arrows is quite spectacular.</blockquote>
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Look! Out the window! There went the class balance!
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[Spazmo]

The Arcane Archer is incredibly poorly designed. Essentially, a member of this class can craft all sorts of overpowered arrows at no cost of gold or experience, and very little time. He can put all sorts of spells into the arrows and can even make arrows of death that kill a designated enemy on contact. Game balance, indeed.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

The Arcane Archer is incredibly poorly designed. Essentially, a member of this class can craft all sorts of overpowered arrows at no cost of gold or experience, and very little time. He can put all sorts of spells into the arrows and can even make arrows of death that kill a designated enemy on contact. Game balance, indeed.

Just being able to shoot one arrow and hitting everything around him is way overpowered. Basically, you have an archer that can clear out a room in a couple of rounds. It's like having an equal number of archers as bad guys in every situation without having to deal with having an equal amount of ammo. That's just ludicrious.

 

[Rosh]

Game balance? Where do you think that had ANYTHING to do with BioWare?

As long as it has "really kewl minigun particles" for their cattle fans to drool over and munchkinism Super Cool El33t Mega Killer Klasses, then that's all GOOD to them.

I'm seriously cringing at how shitty that Star Whores game is going to be. Another dose of shitty design and crap pathfinding in 3d.

 

[Spazmo]

To be fair, Rosh, the Arcane Archer isn't BioWare's fault. It originally comes from the 3rd Ed. Dungeon Master's Guide. We still can (and will!) bitch at BioWare for using the class in the game, but Wizards should bear a portion of the blame, too.

 

[Rosh]

Uh...many people play Monty Haul campaigns and there are some modules that pretty much do support those kinds of campaigns.

I'd be the bloody fool for using them, though.

 

[Jarinor]

From what I've read, I've come to the following conclusion:

Arcane Archer = Bowazon

I'm not big on D&D (in fact, I know practically nothing compared to most of you guys), but even I can see that this is just pathetic design. Yes, ranged attacks need to be viable, because they would be in real life, but viable does not mean overpowered to make up for a perceived gap. You may not be able to do as much damage as a tank, but you aren't exactly at risk either.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I kind of wonder how that'll be implimented in real time, now that I think about it. If you fire one arrow, and it has to go around and hit every single target in the span of less than six seconds... That's going to be an issue if there's a good number of enemies around.

Yes, WotC has some responsibility for making he class in the first place, but the decision to use that class is BioWare's. There has to be classes that are less powerful than that one in the rules somewhere.

 

[Spazmo]

Yes, like all the other ones. The arcane archer reads like it was made by some twelve year old who's DMing for the first time, not Skip freakin' Williams.

As for the rael-time thing, D2 handled this by simply showing a whole lot of arrows fanning out in a (I think) ninety degree angle, and whatever is withing that angle get hit.

 

[udarnik]

Yes, when he wrote "hits every enemy on-screen with a single arrow" he means every enemy is struck by one arrow each (as opposed to a "flurry" of arrows that struck one target). This doesn't make the ability any less unbalancing, but it makes it easier to regulate by making ammunition scarce in much the same way that IWD2 regulated spell power by controlling when you got scrolls.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, this thing about hitting everything at once is a once per day, one target per level ability so it should not have a huge effect, but the other abilities like imbue arrow and arrow of death make it way unbalanced, and totally unnecessary for an archer.

As for the bowazon comparison, don't forget that the main goal of D2 was to level up through killing stuff and as such the ability to kill as much and as fast as you can was an important factor. This is hardly the case for a D&D game even the one as shitty as NWN and its expansion/sequels/whatever.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

hey

This game is so going to bomb, after the huge dissapointment of NWN I doubt this game will sell as to expected. Even some Bioware fanboys are starting to hate it.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yes, like all the other ones. The arcane archer reads like it was made by some twelve year old who's DMing for the first time, not Skip freakin' Williams.

If you can combine the death arrow with the ability to hit everything on the screen with one arrow, then that's completely ass. Have a high dex and a few arrow feats, and you're the walking hand of death.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

You can only have one arrow of death at a time. The arcane archer is still totally silly. I hate the Blackguard more, though, simply because he makes Paladins pointless.

I'm waiting for them to toss in the Ur-Priest in the next expansion. For the low low price of 10 levels, you get 1st-9th level priest spells. And you can steal the special powers of your enemies at will. Teleport Without Error, Gate, Wish, Time Stop; collect them all!

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

The arcane archer reads like it was made by some twelve year old who's DMing for the first time,

And no, I did not make it.

D&D is to rules based. Ive gotten into old-skool PAranioa recently. Our Computer is one of the funniest people youll ever meet.

This game is so going to bomb, after the huge dissapointment of NWN I doubt this game will sell as to expected. Even some Bioware fanboys are starting to hate it.

BioWare=Money.
You=Dumass.

I hate the Blackguard more, though, simply because he makes Paladins pointless.

I still think an Anti-Paladin could be cool, but the Blackguard is still stupid.

 

[Section8]

Considering 99% of the monsters encountered in NWN needed only a single arrow to kill them, the arcane archer sounds like a marked improvement in gameplay terms. Now if only there was a prestige class that instantly unlocked every container on the screen, then you'd be able to circumvent all the boring portions of the game very quickly. Of course then Bioware would have to compensate by actually adding some depth and we can't have that...

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You can only have one arrow of death at a time. The arcane archer is still totally silly.

One would be all you needed to clear every monster on the screen if one arrow can hit every monster on the screen. How long does it take to make them also? Considering how they fudged the resting in D&D for NWN, it wouldn't shock me if you could make an arrow, wipe out a horde, rest, make an arrow, repeat.

I hate the Blackguard more, though, simply because he makes Paladins pointless.

Especially when that class sounds more powerful than the paladin.

I'm waiting for them to toss in the Ur-Priest in the next expansion. For the low low price of 10 levels, you get 1st-9th level priest spells. And you can steal the special powers of your enemies at will. Teleport Without Error, Gate, Wish, Time Stop; collect them all!

If they're tossing crap like this in, why even bother having the normal classes?

D&D is to rules based. Ive gotten into old-skool PAranioa recently. Our Computer is one of the funniest people youll ever meet.

West End Games' Paranoia is probably one of the best dark future, post apocalyptic role playing games ever.

Traitor.

Considering 99% of the monsters encountered in NWN needed only a single arrow to kill them, the arcane archer sounds like a marked improvement in gameplay terms. Now if only there was a prestige class that instantly unlocked every container on the screen, then you'd be able to circumvent all the boring portions of the game very quickly. Of course then Bioware would have to compensate by actually adding some depth and we can't have that...

No kidding. It really wouldn't shock me if BioWare's next CRPG allowed you to play an immortal diety who could strike down anything at will, never took damage, and so on. That's the route they seem to head.

 

[Psilon]

It really wouldn't shock me if BioWare's next CRPG allowed you to play an immortal diety who could strike down anything at will, never took damage, and so on. That's the route they seem to head.

Why not try beating Throne of Bhaal, then using the drop-everything trick to import your level 578 badass into BG2 with all your equipment intact? That'll get you pretty close when you can cast Wail of the Banshee in the Athkatla circus.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

One would be all you needed to clear every monster on the screen if one arrow can hit every monster on the screen. How long does it take to make them also? Considering how they fudged the resting in D&D for NWN, it wouldn't shock me if you could make an arrow, wipe out a horde, rest, make an arrow, repeat.

Just looked at the description for hail of arrows, and it's not quite so extreme as we thought. You just get a maximum of one shot for each level of arcane archer you get, so basically you're just shooting super fast. If I were DMing (not that I'd allow most prestige classes anyway), I'd rule each shot takes an arrow. With Bioware, who knows. I think the assumption is it's supposed to take a separate arrow, though.

The arrow of death takes a day to make, but it's free. So, yeah, it would be perfect for shoot, rest, shoot, rest in a CRPG.

I hate the Blackguard more, though, simply because he makes Paladins pointless.

Especially when that class sounds more powerful than the paladin.

Yup. If it's any consolation to the good guys, the other paladinesque prestige classes introduced elsewhere seemed to use the Blackguard as the template. Net result is there's no reason to be a paladin, you'd pretty much always do better picking up 5 or so levels of fighter and then getting one of the holy warrior type prestige classes.

I'm waiting for them to toss in the Ur-Priest in the next expansion. For the low low price of 10 levels, you get 1st-9th level priest spells. And you can steal the special powers of your enemies at will. Teleport Without Error, Gate, Wish, Time Stop; collect them all!

If they're tossing crap like this in, why even bother having the normal classes?

I have no idea. Prestige classes outdo pretty much every class. The fighting ones have very nice special abilities and sometimes throw in a few feats to boot. Fighting/spellcasting ones let you cram in the spells a paladin or ranger would get much more quickly and give you a bunch of nice abilities to boot. Spellcaster classes pretty much always let you continue your spellcasting advancement right on schedule and give you a host of special abilities on top of that. Sticking to one class once you can get a prestige class just downright pointless.

Then you have even sillier ones like the Ur-Priest that really make regular classes into chumps. Haven't seen a wizard equivalent, but I'm sure there's one out there.

 

[Spazmo]

What bugs me is the cleric prestige classes. Beyond first level, clerics get absolutely nothing beyond hit die, extra spells, skills, etc. Then, along comes a big 'ol prestige class that still lets them keep the exact same spell progression and hit dice, but with a heap of special abilities and probably extra skill points to boot.

The blackguard is funny because it encourages horrible role-playing, or at the very best, extremely cliched role-playing. When a paladin falls and becomes a blackguard, he can choose a number of special abilites based on how many paladin levels he had before the multi-classing, which makes ex-paladin blackguards more powerful than the vanilla kind. This either encourages evil characters to start out as paladins for more power, or to assume the extremely cheesy archetype of the fallen hero. Yawn.

Ultimately, in my view, prestige classes are a good idea at the core, but are very poorly executed.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

I think prestige classes with wizards and sorcerers are worse, really. Sorcerers gain exactly nothing past 1st level but spells, and wizards get just a feat every 5 levels. They lose absolutely nothing going to a prestige class, even less than other classes.

Clerics at least usually lose their turn undead progression with prestige classes, unless the new one has it as well. That would sort of be balanced, only falling behind in turn undead isn't exactly the supreme sacrifice. Of course why bother with that, just take hospitaler, get your regular spell progression, lay on hands, remove disease, warrior BAB progression, a bonus feat every two levels, and advance in turn undead starting at 3rd level.

I agree that they'd be a good idea, it's just as a rule you're getting something for nothing with them.