Editorial The Rise and Fall of Troika

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: Troika Games

<a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com>The Escapist</a> has posted an article about <a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/77/8>The Rise and Fall of Troika</a>, featuring comments from Cain, Boyarsky, and Anderson.
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<blockquote>"Right or wrong, we just needed more time to test and polish the games, and none of our three publishers were willing to give it to us. Each and every game was pulled out of our hands before we were through with it. In all fairness, I have to say that we were late and over budget, but that still does not justify giving the public an unfinished product."
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And now, the three have scattered in the wind. Boyarsky works in the industry, but wouldn't say where on record. Cain is also in the field, and told me (through Boyarsky): "I am staying in the industry but keeping a much lower profile than I did at Troika. Instead of talking about making games or trying to convince people to play (or publish) my games, I am doing what makes me very happy - making games." And Anderson is in Phoenix with his significant other, selling real estate, though he's "getting the itch to return" to games.</blockquote>Discuss.
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[Diogo Ribeiro]

Great ideas, hit and miss execution, poor testing. Troika in a nutshell, though I'd take their games over most other companies' games.

 

[LCJr.]

"Right or wrong, we just needed more time to test and polish the games, and none of our three publishers were willing to give it to us. Each and every game was pulled out of our hands before we were through with it. In all fairness, I have to say that we were late and over budget, but that still does not justify giving the public an unfinished product."

Now that's just funny. So let me see if I got this straight. Troika didn't have the resources/skills to complete projects on time and within the budget. But it's all the publishers fault? I love the redirection of blame angle "Oh the poor public. Those evil publishers.".

 

[FrancoTAU]

Great piece. One thing that caught me off guard... Tim is currently making games?

 

[Vault Dweller]

"Right or wrong, we just needed more time to test and polish the games, and none of our three publishers were willing to give it to us. Each and every game was pulled out of our hands before we were through with it. In all fairness, I have to say that we were late and over budget, but that still does not justify giving the public an unfinished product."

Now that's just funny. So let me see if I got this straight. Troika didn't have the resources/skills to complete projects on time and within the budget. But it's all the publishers fault? I love the redirection of blame angle "Oh the poor public. Those evil publishers.".

Releasing unpolished, unready games is always the publisher's fault because it's the publisher who makes this decision. A developer could be blamed for taking too long and failing to complete a project on time (which Troika never denied), but it's the publisher who decides when to ship a game.

Let's forget about Troika to avoid "u r teh biased Troika fanboi" arguments and talk about Obsidian and KOTOR 2. No matter how you look at it, it's Lucas Arts' fault for releasing the game BEFORE IT WAS FINISHED and forcing the developers to cut areas and all the endings for different characters.

Going back to Troika, and comparing HL2 - a praised blockbuster - to BL, how often HL2, a simple shooter, basically, was delayed in order to make it right, in order to make it a praised blockbuster? Well, if Troika was given at least another 6 months or maybe even a year, it could have been a fucking blockbuster. In fact, I can't even think of a really good game that wasn't delayed quite a few times and spent less then 3 years in development. Blizzard's success was 90% due to the unlimited development time the company had. And so on, and so on.

 

[JrK]

Now that's just funny. So let me see if I got this straight. Troika didn't have the resources/skills to complete projects on time and within the budget. But it's all the publishers fault? I love the redirection of blame angle "Oh the poor public. Those evil publishers.".

So basically, you agree with the publishers general greed towards fucking the public with whatever unfinished product they can get their hands on? How much time did they give Troika in the first place? A year? Maybe two? In any case I'd be willing to say they gave the developers too little time in the first place to make a great game instead of a fast made shitty game like so many of the FPS'es released (eg. SW: republic commando). Now let's shift the focus to a company like Bethesda, who managed to screw up a game in spite of having 4 or 6 years to complete it. Those are bad developers.

 

[Goliath]

The party which really is to blame is the customer. The publishers are faceless, capitalist robots whose behaviour is determined by the bottom line. They know that they can ship half-finished games without suffering noticeably reduced sales, that is why they do it. So why should they give the developer another six months and more money? That would be a terrible business decision. It is the customer's task to make an informed decision and simple refuse (!) to buy half-finished products.
Now you might say "I am too weak!" - well, when continue to enjoy getting raped, because that is what happens to weak people - not just in prison!
The same applies to the RPG market in general BTW. If you buy crap like Oblivion while you actually want something like Daggerfall Bethesda has no reason to care about your demands! Why should any commercial developer release a "hardcore RPG" when all the so-called "hardcore RPG gamers" will also greedly buy all the lastest NextGen (tm) RPGs i.e. console action adventures? If you make Oblivion you can sell to every kind of RPG player (except me ) while Daggerfall 2.0 would limit you to a sub-section of the market ergo - it makes no sense to develop Daggerfall 2.0 and you can blame nobody but yourself.

 

[Atrokkus]

Great article. Love Escapist's style. (btw be sure to read the adjacent feature on localization - also a gem)

VD said it all about it, really. Blizzard is indeed a very good example, as is Half-life 2. I remember Diablo 2 expansion being delayed and hyped for so long -- and hell, it was worth it, I would never blame them for delaying it.

 

[Atrokkus]

It is the customer's task to make an informed decision and simple refuse (!) to buy half-finished products.
Now you might say "I am too weak!" - well, when continue to enjoy getting raped, because that is what happens to weak people - not just in prison!

Wrong. Troika hyped Bloodlines -- and RIGHTFULLY so, I must say. Even unfinished, it's still a VERY good game that I enjoyed immensely. And they couldn't have known that the publisher would grab the game outta their hands before it's done, so hwo could they not hype all the good stuff about the game, even if eventually some of those features never saw light? And how could we, the players, could figure that it's so unfinished? And once again, if we insisted on NOT buying it, we would have hurt Troika even more, because helll --- a total abscence of sales is just impossible, alright? It is a totally unreal scenario, given the franchise name and so forth. So the publisher would still recover all the spent capital, and the less we pay em the less Troika gets, right?
So such a standpoint doesn't do justice to Troika and their efforts, and doesn't hurt the publisher either. You can't initiate a total boycotte.

Again, it would hypocrytic of people to say that Bloodlines failed completely. Sure it might not have been your cup of tea, but would it be one had it been COMPLETELY FINISHED?

 

[Goliath]

And how could we, the players, could figure that it's so unfinished?

Reading a proper review before buying the game? It did that. That's why did not buy Oblivion, or The Guild 2, or ...

And once again, if we insisted on NOT buying it, we would have hurt Troika even more, because helll --- a total abscence of sales is just impossible, alright? It is a totally unreal scenario

Only because almost all video gamers are retarded shit eaters. What would happen if car company tried to sell a car whose engine falls to pieces after driving a few hundert kilometers? No sales! Or maybe a few by people who were not aware of this problem, but they would return the cars and every court would force the car producer to offer a full refund.

, given the franchise name and so forth. So the publisher would still recover all the spent capital, and the less we pay em the less Troika gets, right?

Of course, everyone involved in trying to shovel crap at the customer would have to suffer. But that's a one time thing, afterwards the industry would have matured and act according to the new, higher standards. Publishers would not longer rush games becomes it would not be profitable for them anymore. This is not about saving a single developer, but about fixing the market.

Again, it would hypocrytic of people to say that Bloodlines failed completely. Sure it might not have been your cup of tea, but would it be one had it been COMPLETELY FINISHED?

I have not said that any game "failed completely", but it leads us to the "weakness" I am talking about. You can still get enjoyment out of a half-finished product, so might be hard not to buy it. But if you do - you suffer the consequences.
I mean it is not like we are talking about a lone case here. Half-finished games shipped with critical bugs have become the norm - because most customers accept it!

 

[voodoo1man]

The DNF thread in general discussion inspired me to Google Scott Miller to see what he was up to. I found this interview. Here is what he has to say about 3d Realms' publishing process:

Well, we have a simply philosophy that if you’re going to make a game, do it right. Another words, the game comes first. Most publishers do not see the value of this philosophy, and therefore the majority of their games are not hits. Also, since we retain ownership of our game brands, it is in our best interest to insure that our games are big hits, because not only do we like those fat royalty checks, we also like to see the valuation of our brands exceed 10’s of millions of dollars. In 2002 we (us and Remedy) sold the Max Payne brand for nearly $50 million, and that was after earning some $25 million in royalties. So, was it worth the 4.5 years to make Max Payne right?

 

[HardCode]

Well, we have a simply philosophy that if you’re going to make a game, do it right. Another words, the game comes first. Most publishers do not see the value of this philosophy, and therefore the majority of their games are not hits. Also, since we retain ownership of our game brands, it is in our best interest to insure that our games are big hits, because not only do we like those fat royalty checks, we also like to see the valuation of our brands exceed 10’s of millions of dollars. In 2002 we (us and Remedy) sold the Max Payne brand for nearly $50 million, and that was after earning some $25 million in royalties. So, was it worth the 4.5 years to make Max Payne right?

Did he do the dialog for NWN2?

 

[OccupatedVoid]

Well, we have a simply philosophy that if you’re going to make a game, do it right. Another words, the game comes first. Most publishers do not see the value of this philosophy, and therefore the majority of their games are not hits. Also, since we retain ownership of our game brands, it is in our best interest to insure that our games are big hits, because not only do we like those fat royalty checks, we also like to see the valuation of our brands exceed 10’s of millions of dollars. In 2002 we (us and Remedy) sold the Max Payne brand for nearly $50 million, and that was after earning some $25 million in royalties. So, was it worth the 4.5 years to make Max Payne right?

Did he do the dialog for NWN2?

 

[Voss]

Wow. Nice avoidance of fiscal realties, here.

Keep in mind that delaying games amounts to giving the developers more money (for wages, at the least, and other development costs). For games that are almost certainly going to be blockbusters (half life 2, blizzard games), this decision makes sense. For not so certain things like Vampire, it doesn't. The projected sales (and I assume the publisher works some numbers in this area), don't change because the game is delayed. So it becomes of a matter of expected profits vs. yet more money. It becomes pretty clear when yet more money exceeds expected profits.

So they keep to the original schedule (agreed to by both parties way back in the process), which Troika couldn't manage. And by the third failure (by publisher's standards), I doubt Activision was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Shipping the game in the not quite finished state is a matter of getting back some of their investment. After all, we know what happens to companies that repeatedly scrap projects (interplay).


I like the Tim quote, by the way. 'I give up. I'll make shit. Screw my dreams.' A nice message.

 

[Volourn]

Hip hip horrya for blaming otehrs for your screw ups. Troika founders are 'typical Amerikans'. Hahahaha! I kid, I kid.

Still, Troika is 100% responsibgle for THEIR failures. Period.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Keep in mind that delaying games amounts to giving the developers more money (for wages, at the least, and other development costs).

Obviously.

For games that are almost certainly going to be blockbusters (half life 2, blizzard games), this decision makes sense.

Whoa, let's slow down a bit here. There is no magic compass that will tell you what game is going to be a blockbuster. Originally (remember those old screenshots), Starcraft was going to suck. Bliz took its time and MADE it a blockbuster, by spending enough time and money on it to make it shine. God knows there's been no shortage of RTS games, and yet Starcraft was and still is a great game. If Half-Life 2 was released a year earlier, it would have sucked and would have joined the ranks of the "yet another crappy shooter" legion.

Great games are made, not forecasted, and making them takes time and money.

The projected sales (and I assume the publisher works some numbers in this area), don't change because the game is delayed.

I wouldn't assume anything. Releasing the game on the same day with the highly anticipated HL2 was a suicide mission, illuminating Activision's incompetence in many business areas.

Shipping the game in the not quite finished state is a matter of getting back some of their investment. After all, we know what happens to companies that repeatedly scrap projects (interplay).

Interplay is a different story. They killed projects for different reasons (BG3, FO3), and as for Torn, they didn't have much done and were years away from having something that could be released.

 

[Bradylama]

With each successive Troika title the sales were getting poorer and poorer. If anything, that should've been the consumer response that should've given publishers the clue that Troika's notoriety for making buggy games was wittling sales.

Q&A, however, is something that has to be fronted by publishers. Troika games weren't properly tested because they didn't have the money or the manpower to do it with. They were already overbudget with little to no testing, what makes you think it's fair to presume that all of their failures were their own?

Publishers have to properly support titles if they want A releases, but they're too short-sighted for it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

With each successive Troika title the sales were getting poorer and poorer.

Is that a fact?

http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... &start=100

Leon: "I don't have any actual numbers at hand (nor do I know whether I can reveal numbers per our contract, since I don't have that with me at the moment either), but to the best of my knowledge, ToEE was our best seller - or at least our fastest. The reason it's difficult to say is because our numbers were often being adjusted after the fact for arcane business reasons (on the publisher's end). I believe Arcanum is close to ToEE in sales, but Arcanum has been out alot longer and is at a much lower price point. Vampire hasn't been out long enough to really judge how well it will eventually do, as our games tend to continue to sell (as do all RPGs) longer than most. "

 

[Gambler]

Unfinished and buggy games do sell bad. So what? Doesn't stop Vivendi and Atari.

First, it's unrealistic to expect buyers to ignore a game completely. A publisher can always bribe a couple of reviewers, do some marketing and sell something.

Second, popular magazines and websites do not publish quality reviews on a daily basis. It's not profitable.

Third, most of the games you see in stores are published by a handful of publishers. They are too big to care about a few minor titles.

Fourth, in order to be "major" a game has to be mainstream.

Fifth, whenever an unfinished game is published, the press usually blames developers.

This entire business model is rotten. Sites like totalgaming.net might be the future.

 

[Bradylama]

Is that a fact?

I recall somebody posting sales figures for the games, yeah. In General RPG I think.

I can't search worth shit on this forum but I did find the article where the figures were posted:

http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/static/EEpAZpklyFCxoEqUsh.php

Arcanum was the company's best selling game, and it only managed to sell 234K units and generate sales of $8.8 million, according to the NPD Group. It was downhill from there; The Temple of Elemental Evil sold 128K units ($5.2 million) and Bloodlines sold a paltry 72K units ($3.4 million). It didn't help either that Bloodlines, which was published by Activision and powered by the Source/Half-Life 2 engine, was released at the same time as Valve's blockbuster first-person shooter sequel.

That was March 1st. I don't know how old Leonard's comment is, but whatever.

 

[Vault Dweller]

See the first post in the thread I posted. It's the same article that you quoted. As usual, there was a long discussion, and then Leon showed up and I asked him to comment on the numbers.

 

[Krafter]

This is my favourite part :

...and a third Fallout is in the works at Bethesda (when I asked Boyarsky what he thought about Interplay selling the rights, he said, "It felt as if our ex wife had sold our children that she had legal custody of,"...

Bethesda gets to make Fallout 3 and Troika is gone for good? What a sad state we are in right now.

 

[Volourn]

Leon: "I don't have any actual numbers at hand (nor do I know whether I can reveal numbers per our contract, since I don't have that with me at the moment either), but to the best of my knowledge"

LOL Leon doesn't even know for sure.

Bradyl;ama may not have the 'facts'; but neither does Monsieur Leon.

R00fles!

 

[aweigh]

How was it restrictive?

EDIT: TWD deleted his post. He said that Troika screwed themselves by going with the Source engine, as that was too restrictive on the "RPG elements".

 

[FrancoTAU]

Unfinished and buggy games do sell bad. So what? Doesn't stop Vivendi and Atari.
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That wasn't the best example you could throw out there. The new "Atari" is a cunthair away from going under. Mostly because their shitty reputation and bad management.

I'm not sure how anyone can think that rushing a title out is ever good. If you're at death's door like Interplay or Infrogames/Atari and you need to pay the rent, than I can at least understand. How can you argue with companies like Blizzard & Valve who do massive QA and churn out blockbusters each time? Who are the publisher/developer who rush shit out there and still done well in the long run?