Editorial The Rise and Fall of Troika

[Volourn]

" Before you dismiss the answer, ask yourself why Lucas Arts shipped KOTOR 2 in an unfinished state."

Bullshit. KOTOR2 was finished. It was unpolished. Huge difference. Beginning, middle, and end. Game over.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Exactly. Troika made RPGs for a niche audience.

That same audience bought Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate. Bestsellers.

The niche audience for games like Arcanum or Planescape Torment etc. also buys games like BG or NWN (like many on the codex here).
This doesn't mean it has to be the other way around.

People who watch french artful movies in little cinemas go into multiplex cinemas to watch the newest hollywood blockbuster sometimes.
14 yr old kids who watch Superman at the multiplex don't go into L'homme du train
Idiot.

Every ferrari is a car. Not every car is a ferrari. Clear enough?

The majority of gamers doesn't want to read excessive dialogue (actually, they don't want to read at all, that's why the blockbusters feature full voice overs)

That must be why Morrowind and Baldur's Gate sold so well, right?

Morrowind had dialogue?

or a complex world full of choices and consequence.

Or Gothic 2 in Europe.

LOLLERZ! Gothic 2? The codex hype for gothic games has always been ridiciolous, but even VD would admit the previous instalments of the series have been action-adventures with stats.
Besides, Gothic 2 is succesful in Germany, not in whole europe. And that is because germans love to suck german developer's cocks.

Besides, all three Gothic games have been buggy as hell upon their initial release, one worse than the next.
Moron.

Those gamers want easily accessible games that they can pick up and play casually for 1 or 2 hours without putting much thought into it. Bethesda and Bioware realize this. Troika RPGs were oldschool, that's why they didn't sell.

Bullshit. They didn't sell because they were buggy, unfinished products.

Like Gothic 2? Supossed top selling game in ALL OVER EUROPE!!!111 ? .

Parts of their games were good, but that hardly mattered when the games would run poorly and crash all the time. Beyond that, Arcanum's combat system was a piece of shit, choices and consequences stopped meaning anything once you reached the half-way mark in Bloodlines and the overhyped vignettes in ToEE were little more than 3 minute introduction sequences. Never mind the dialogue; ToEE didn't even have a storyline, so you can forget about that too. Half Life 2: Episode 1 has more of that than ToEE and it's not even an RPG.

And bloodlines beginning has more choices and consequences then than Gothic 1+2 together. Idiot.
Besides that, Arcanum was a masterpiece. The combat wasn't great. So what, you're a fan of the BG series aren't you? Hypocrite.

Give me a buggy Arcanum-like game over a not-so-buggy-but-somehow-mediacore-shit-game like NWN 2 everyday.
Give me a failed developer who produced 1 great RPG and one decent RPG/very good game over fuckwits like Obsidian, who somehow manage to survive but are spending their time with recycling bioware garbage into buggy mediacore sequels.

Everyone who still hopes that these guys will pull off something really good in the future, "after they have created a financial backup by selling mediacore games" is full of shit. Obsidian will continue to produce mediacore garbage until the end of their days.

See how that guy is pushing the lever all the way from code, over art, to design? At least they had their priotities right. The games were often buggy, but the beautifully designed game world more than made up for it, at least in my opinion.

I wouldn't call Arcanum's combat system beautifully designed.

The rest was.

NO MORE FREEEERIDEZZZ!!

 

[Vault Dweller]

" Before you dismiss the answer, ask yourself why Lucas Arts shipped KOTOR 2 in an unfinished state."

Bullshit. KOTOR2 was finished. It was unpolished. Huge difference. Beginning, middle, and end. Game over.

My mistake. I foolishly assumed that a game without an ending (showing "teh end!" slide doesn't really have the same impact for me), a game with not even removed, but torn out areas that haven't beeen completed could be described as an unfinished game.

...even VD would admit the previous instalments of the series have been action-adventures with stats.

Since when I'm a Gothic fanboy? I liked Gothic 3, and wrote a favorable review, explaining why, without ever claiming that the Gothic games are like the bestest RPGs evar.

 

[Volourn]

"I foolishly assumed that a game without an ending"

The game had an ending. You beat up the bitch, and the player goes on a long trip. Game over.

Beginning, middle, and end.

As for stuff not cut properly; that has nothing with the game being finished or not. It's about the lack of polish. Dumbass.

Just admit it, VD, you a Gothic fanboy who sucks the games' dicks.

LOL G3 is a full blown role-playing game. L0LLERZ!

As long as you deny that G3 is nothing but a decent Action RPG; you ar enothing but a loser G fanboy.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"I foolishly assumed that a game without an ending"

The game had an ending. You beat up the bitch, and the player goes on a long trip. Game over.

Like I said, Volly, a "game over" slide and a proper ending are two different things. If your memory is playing tricks on you, I'm referring to the crashed ship being magically repaired, the unexplained and clearly unfinished Goto thingy cutscene, the individual endings that are on the CDs, but not in the game, and so on.

As for stuff not cut properly; that has nothing with the game being finished or not. It's about the lack of polish. Dumbass.

It's like saying that a broken table isn't unfinished, but simply lacks a coat of polish. Moron.

Just admit it, VD, you a Gothic fanboy who sucks the games' dicks.

Uh, no.

As long as you deny that G3 is nothing but a decent Action RPG; you ar enothing but a loser G fanboy.

Learn to read. One of the first paragraphs in my review states that 80% of the game is combat.

 

[Volourn]

"Learn to read. One of the first paragraphs in my review states that 80% of the game is combat."

Learn to remember. You are constantly stating that Gothic isn't an Action RPG; but a full fledge role-playing agme which is complete and utter bullshit. Are you now chnaging your tune? If so, it's about time you stopped sticking your head in the sand. Moronic fanboy.



"Like I said, Volly, a "game over" slide and a proper ending are two different things. If your memory is playing tricks on you, I'm referring to the crashed ship being magically repaired, the unexplained and clearly unfinished Goto thingy cutscene, the individual endings that are on the CDs, but not in the game, and so on."

KOTOR2 is finished. Period. Just because teh ending is not satisfactory doesn't mean there isn't one. Period.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Why the hell do people constantly talk about troika? It makes my eyes misty thinking about it, really. God I miss them.

 

[made]

TalesfromtheCrypt summed it up perfectly. Arcanum did everything right that matters (to me) in an RPG. The combat was nothing spectacular, true, but I can forgive that as long as I am able to skip through it with little effort and continue with the important aspects of the game (dialogue, quests, storyline). Same is true for PST, or Ultima 6/7. I didn't even bother with combat mode and slaughtered everything in real-time; it was non-essential to progressing in the world.

Conversely, in all the Gothic games, combat was a chore. In G3, every battle against mere wolves turned into a save-and-reload fest because you were dead if you didn't get the first hit in. Spending 50% of my time reloading during trivial fights was highly frustrating and nearly broke the game for me, until I finally reached a high enough level that allowed me to obliterate everything in my path, but by that time I had realized that the game didn't have much to offer anyway.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Exactly. Troika made RPGs for a niche audience.

That same audience bought Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate. Bestsellers.

The niche audience for games like Arcanum or Planescape Torment etc. also buys games like BG or NWN (like many on the codex here).
This doesn't mean it has to be the other way around.

People who watch french artful movies in little cinemas go into multiplex cinemas to watch the newest hollywood blockbuster sometimes.
14 yr old kids who watch Superman at the multiplex don't go into L'homme du train
Idiot.

Every ferrari is a car. Not every car is a ferrari. Clear enough?

The majority of gamers doesn't want to read excessive dialogue (actually, they don't want to read at all, that's why the blockbusters feature full voice overs)

That must be why Morrowind and Baldur's Gate sold so well, right?

Morrowind had dialogue?

or a complex world full of choices and consequence.

Or Gothic 2 in Europe.

LOLLERZ! Gothic 2? The codex hype for gothic games has always been ridiciolous, but even VD would admit the previous instalments of the series have been action-adventures with stats.
Besides, Gothic 2 is succesful in Germany, not in whole europe. And that is because germans love to suck german developer's cocks.

Besides, all three Gothic games have been buggy as hell upon their initial release, one worse than the next.
Moron.

Those gamers want easily accessible games that they can pick up and play casually for 1 or 2 hours without putting much thought into it. Bethesda and Bioware realize this. Troika RPGs were oldschool, that's why they didn't sell.

Bullshit. They didn't sell because they were buggy, unfinished products.

Like Gothic 2? Supossed top selling game in ALL OVER EUROPE!!!111 ? .

Parts of their games were good, but that hardly mattered when the games would run poorly and crash all the time. Beyond that, Arcanum's combat system was a piece of shit, choices and consequences stopped meaning anything once you reached the half-way mark in Bloodlines and the overhyped vignettes in ToEE were little more than 3 minute introduction sequences. Never mind the dialogue; ToEE didn't even have a storyline, so you can forget about that too. Half Life 2: Episode 1 has more of that than ToEE and it's not even an RPG.

And bloodlines beginning has more choices and consequences then than Gothic 1+2 together. Idiot.
Besides that, Arcanum was a masterpiece. The combat wasn't great. So what, you're a fan of the BG series aren't you? Hypocrite.

Give me a buggy Arcanum-like game over a not-so-buggy-but-somehow-mediacore-shit-game like NWN 2 everyday.
Give me a failed developer who produced 1 great RPG and one decent RPG/very good game over fuckwits like Obsidian, who somehow manage to survive but are spending their time with recycling bioware garbage into buggy mediacore sequels.

Everyone who still hopes that these guys will pull off something really good in the future, "after they have created a financial backup by selling mediacore games" is full of shit. Obsidian will continue to produce mediacore garbage until the end of their days.

See how that guy is pushing the lever all the way from code, over art, to design? At least they had their priotities right. The games were often buggy, but the beautifully designed game world more than made up for it, at least in my opinion.

I wouldn't call Arcanum's combat system beautifully designed.

The rest was.

NO MORE FREEEERIDEZZZ!!

It's obvious you know nothing of civility. I'm not interested in playing with you.

 

[Sol Invictus]

The niche audience for games like Arcanum or Planescape Torment etc. also buys games like BG or NWN (like many on the codex here).
This doesn't mean it has to be the other way around.

People who watch french artful movies in little cinemas go into multiplex cinemas to watch the newest hollywood blockbuster sometimes.
14 yr old kids who watch Superman at the multiplex don't go into L'homme du train
Idiot.

Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights sold many copies because of aggressive marketing, good PR and the fact that they were polished products, at least in comparison to Troika's games. Planescape: Torment had little to no advertising and a horrid colored box with some guy's gray scarred face on it. Arcanum's gold copy had been leaked 3 months prior to its actual release, which had been long enough for many people to savor its combat and character system in all of its rotten qualities. Beyond that, the multiplayer function didn't even work.

Comparing Arcanum and Torment to a critically acclaimed French art film is, mildly put, retarded. Games that cost as much as Arcanum and Torment did to make aren't designed for a small niche audience of 'artfags'. They're meant for the mainstream market, so far as RPGs appeal to the mainstream, and they failed to do so because of the reasons I stated in my first paragraph.

Good day to you, ignorant Troika fanboy.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Hey Rex, why don't you pull my dick out of your ass for just a moment and charge me for the ride? It might make you a better person.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

NO MORE FREE RIDES!

 

[User was nabbed fit]

POLOLOLOLONIUM.

 

[elander_]

They're meant for the mainstream market, so far as RPGs appeal to the mainstream, and they failed to do so...

And thank heavens they failed to do so.

 

[heiamll]

Runners-Up [best RPG]:
Neverwinter Nights 2
Marvel: Ultimate Alliance

Wtf?

We all know that smashing trash cans for health power-ups constitutes an RPG.

Its not the actual smashing that makes it an RPG.. its the choice I have on exactly how to smash the garbage can. Do I use weak or strong attack? Or do I use a mutant power? If I use a power, which one? Wolverines Xslash or Storms Lightning?

You see.. not only is it an RPG, but there is an element of strategy involved.

 

[Surgey]

Runners-Up [best RPG]:
Neverwinter Nights 2
Marvel: Ultimate Alliance

Wtf?

We all know that smashing trash cans for health power-ups constitutes an RPG.

Its not the actual smashing that makes it an RPG.. its the choice I have on exactly how to smash the garbage can. Do I use weak or strong attack? Or do I use a mutant power? If I use a power, which one? Wolverines Xslash or Storms Lightning?

You see.. not only is it an RPG, but there is an element of strategy involved.

Well, yeah. The original name of the game was "Marvel: Every Trash Can, a Consequence." Don't forget you could also smash the trash can on an enemy, which will lower his faction standing with you. In a manner of a speaking. Also, you got to choose which character got the health powerup, so more choices!

It's got a pretty decent character building system.

On a serious note, agreed, but having RPG elements doesn't constitute an RPG. Although, to be fair, there really weren't much good RPG's in 2006, so I guess they had to put something in the runners-up. I mean, the game is fun, but it's no RPG.

 

[Davaris]

I think a big part of Troika's problem was they put the game before the money making. Whereas the successful developers find out what the largest slice of the market wants which seems to be fantasy.

I've also seen several comments by developers that said if you don't make stock standard sword and sorcery RPGs, you're going to get poor sales because average Joe customer just doesn't get RPG's that aren't fantasy.

Here's a site I found a few years back:

http://www.mmogchart.com

Take a look at the Market Share By Genre section.

 

[Volourn]

"Whereas the successful developers find out what the largest slice of the market wants which seems to be fantasy."

Except the fatc all three of Troika's games were fantasy games. R00fles!


"I think a big part of Troika's problem was they put the game before the money making"

Bullshit.

Must explain TOEE being as is, must explain the two combat modes in Arc 9which I believe they calim to be force dinto), and BL's horrible and suppsoedly non Troika's Rt combat.

L0LLERZ!

And, if they truly put the game ahead of the money, their games wouldn't have been so buggy on release with suck a lack of support. R00flers!

 

[Davaris]

Except the fatc all three of Troika's games were fantasy games. R00fles!

Sorry I wasn't clear enough. When I said fantasy I meant stock standard swords and sorcery (like D&D).

And, if they truly put the game ahead of the money, their games wouldn't have been so buggy on release with suck a lack of support. R00flers!

If they put the business before the money, they would have been given the funds to complete their games, because their market would have been much larger (take a look at the link).

I didn't say I liked the situation. I've been bored with swords and sorcery fantasy for years. All I'm saying is the people running Troika were artists who made what they wanted to make, rather than business people who make what the largest portion of the market wants.

 

[Bradylama]

Pull your head out of your ass. Of course all of the Troika RPGs were fantasy becuase they're in fantasy worlds, i.e. fiction. Idiot!

 

[Gnidrologist]

Fallout is teh bestast phantasy geam evar!

 

[Uz0rnaem]

Whereas the successful developers find out what the largest slice of the market wants which seems to be fantasy.
-------------------------------
When I said fantasy I meant stock standard swords and sorcery (like D&D).

Arcanum featured (and emphasized on) those elements, too. Even the box art screamed "DON'T WORRY, WE HAVE ELVES 'N SHIT!". Not to mention that ToEE was a D&D game.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

KOTOR2 is finished. Period. Just because teh ending is not satisfactory doesn't mean there isn't one. Period.

It has an ending, but neither the game nor the ending are finished, in the context of this discussion. It is a simple logic concept to grasp, i believe - even for you.

Comparing Arcanum and Torment to a critically acclaimed French art film is, mildly put, retarded. Games that cost as much as Arcanum and Torment did to make aren't designed for a small niche audience of 'artfags'. They're meant for the mainstream market, so far as RPGs appeal to the mainstream, and they failed to do so because of the reasons I stated in my first paragraph.

About Arcanum i could agree with you, but about Planescape? Maybe it's developers went insane and thought it had a chance to be mainstream, but the very nature and theme of their creation is not so, in any way or shape - and i do not believe the developers thought for a second the theme and focus of Torment were going to make it a hit outside the market of Die-Hard Role Players.

And not all art films cost two pennies to make, as you seem to believe.

 

[kingcomrade]

Except the fatc all three of Troika's games were fantasy games

Steampunk is a subgenre of science fiction, not fantasy. There's nothing supernatural about steam power.

 

[aweigh]

Also, I fail to see how Vampire could even remotely be considered part of the fantasy genre, as we know it today.