Review SoU mixed feelings at Games Domain

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide

<a href="http://www.gamesdomain.com/">Games Domain</a> has put up their <a href="http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/jun03/neverwinter.html">review</a> of <a href="http://nwn.bioware.com/shadows">Shadows of Undrentide</a>, giving it a <b>3/5</b>.
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<blockquote>You can also expect more additions and enhancements in the NEXT expansion pack, coming directly from Bioware in a few months. Details are sketchy but it promises a major upgrade to the tools and DM client. The real reason to get Undrentide is for the new single-player campaign. Most of the downloadable adventures are amateurish at best, and most fans will admit that NWN wasn't well regarded for its uneven campaign. </blockquote>
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Uneven or uneventful?
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Spotted this at <A href="http://www.bluesnews.com">Blue's News</a>

 

[Volourn]

I notice that a lot of reviews that are down on the SOU expansion are down on it because they alwasy point out why buy it if you can download free mods; not on the (lack) of quality in the actual expansion. Interesting indeed...

 

[Walks with the Snails]

It does seem like a bit of a ripoff. That seems to be the general rule with expansion packs, though. For $29, you get more evidence of their mad storywriting skills, and a handful of new tiles and skills that they could have just released in a patch if they really wanted to.

 

[Rosh]

Yes, but they have to milk those insane BioWhore fanbois some more!

 

[Volourn]

Walks, true; but compared to most expansion packs, it is pretty packed. Sure, the skills and feats could have been added in patches perhaps; but I doubt it would be that eays with the spells and feats.

I think most people realize that most expansions aren't going to vastly upgrade the graphics (another common complaint in the reviews); or be jhammed pack with new stuff like an actual full fledge game). Heck, afterall, I payed more than double for the original.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I think the problem is that it costs $30, which is nearly the cost of a game, and offers very little in return for that high price tag. New desert tileset? Big deal, download one. New monsters to use? Big deal, just download some. New module to play through? Big deal, there's gobs of them out there, which is even something BioWare likes to brag about as much as possible.

Really, the only interesting thing that you can download would be the new feats and prestige classes. Of course, as you even pointed out, those prestige classes are poorly implemented since they hardcoded a bunch of limits in to the engine itself.

Of course, I'd be willing to bet the reason those things are hardcoded in to the engine are for the sole purpose of NOT ALLOWING mod makers to make their own spell sets, classes and feats, because there does have to be some reason to get people other than the Biofanbois to plop down $30 for an expansion. If NWN was as modifiable as people claim, you should be able to make your own classes, feats, etc.

 

[Spazmo]

Funny, Volourn, but Blizzard manages to put out very big and very good expansions for it's games that include heaps of new content and pretty much redefine how the game is played. Brood War, Lord of Destruction, the upcoming Frozen Throne... these are all big releases. And on top of that, Blizzard will also apply any important general gameplay fixes and new features to the original game. Case in point, Warcraft III: there's new stuff like queueing up units and upgrades at the same time in Frozen Throne that's getting tossed into the original, too.

Nobody can deny that BioWare easily has as much time, money and people at its disposal as Blizzard, and they have the help of a large and active modding community to help them fix their fuck ups, too. So why such a lackluster expansion?

 

[Volourn]

I don't play Blizzard expansions so I can't judge them. However, comparing BIO's expansions to other companys' expansions that I have tried out (most noteably BIS, and EA); BIO's tend to offer a lot of packed stuff.

I mean the 20-30 hours of game time for SOU is longer than a few games out there. Heck, TOEE is supposedly 30-50 hours and that's a full fledge game. Not to mention everything else that is included in the expansion espicially where spells and feats are concerned. 50+ of each of them.

Oh well. The bottom line is if you dislike BIO as much as some do; no matter what they do; it isn't enough.

'Tis is life.

SP: Huh? Cost of a game? In Kanadian, that adds up to $45. Most new games are worth $80+.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Walks, true; but compared to most expansion packs, it is pretty packed. Sure, the skills and feats could have been added in patches perhaps; but I doubt it would be that eays with the spells and feats.

I don't know, with patch 1.30, they dangle down the new skills and classes on the character creation screen, with them blacked out and "You must have Shadows of Undrentide installed to have access to this." Unless the spells and feats have massive new graphics, I doubt that would have taken much space, either.

'Tis is life.

You realize you've been repeatedly saying "It is is life", right?

Of course, I'd be willing to bet the reason those things are hardcoded in to the engine are for the sole purpose of NOT ALLOWING mod makers to make their own spell sets, classes and feats, because there does have to be some reason to get people other than the Biofanbois to plop down $30 for an expansion. If NWN was as modifiable as people claim, you should be able to make your own classes, feats, etc.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Volourn]

Walks, yes, I repeat mysefl a lot. 'Tis... is.. nah.. I won't do it this time.. just for you.

Actually, from what I've seen in mods, NWN is very moddable. Though; there is no doubt that BIO like all other companies like people to buy their games and will do what they can to sell people on it. That shouldn't be surprising.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Oh well. The bottom line is if you dislike BIO as much as some do; no matter what they do; it isn't enough.

Kind of funny you're saying this when we're talking about why the reviewers on various sites have said this. I really don't think Spazmo, me, or anyone else here works for PC.IGN or GamesDomain. Hell, the reviewers from those sites cut NWN a lot of slack when they reviewed the original release of the game.

SP: Huh? Cost of a game? In Kanadian, that adds up to $45. Most new games are worth $80+.

SoU is $30US. Many new games are just $10-15US more.

 

[Volourn]

That line was refeerring to Walk's line about SOU noty offering enouh. It may or may not be; but from my experience it is jam packed with stuff compared to other expansions that I have tried.

As for $; well for me; it's less than half the price I palyed for the original; so that's a big differene. I'm not too worried about how much costs Amerikans.

 

[triCritical]

Oh well. The bottom line is if you dislike BIO as much as some do; no matter what they do; it isn't enough.

Bottomline is Bioware is not interested in making a good RPG. They are interested in making top dollar by selling something to the great number of people. Often times that means not including a discriminating audience. So it should not surprise you that most people here will dislike Bioware no matter what, especially since there best game was not that good only getting kudo's on its slight non-linearity.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I just think that if Bethesda, Blizzard and those guys who made Kohan can offer expansion packs that completely change the way a game is played, BioWare in all of its unlimited amount of time and resources should damn well be able to accomplish a similar feat. Case in point, Bethesda's Tribunal expansion pack added countless new features specially created for mod-making purposes which allowed the design of many new powerful mods, such as the 'Dwemer Clock' which adds a neat watch into the game and the GIANTS 2.0 mod which adds countless hours of gameplay into Morrowind.

Another case in point, Blizzard's Lord of Destruction expansion pack added two completely new classes such as the Assassin, whose character control could damn well pass itself off as a tribute to the King of Fighters arcade series, and the Druid which adds a whole new dimension of gameplay with his summoning, shapeshifting and spellcasting abilities. Not to mention the fact that the expansion pack added Elite class items, and a slew of new horadric cube recipes. Don't forget the fact that the upcoming 1.10 patch, which is FREE from Blizzard is going to completely change the way both Diablo 2 and the expansion pack are played, especially on the new ladder.

Last case in point has got to be the Frozen Throne expansion pack for Warcraft 3 which not only adds tons of new interface features such as research update messaging and improved build queues but also rebalanced units, heroes, new heroes for each race, mercenary heroes (Pandaren!), critters and for Battle.net - a clan support system and improved ladder! Best thing of all is that people without the expansion pack are going to have access to all of the new Battle.net features.

Now think, would BioWare ever do that?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Anyone remember the Total Annihilation expansion pack? Core Contingency offered totally new maps, a map editor, 75 new units including new classes of units like hovercraft and seaplanes, gobs of new multiplayer maps, a new campaign, and so on. It was only $20. How about the BattleZone expansion which offered a new campaign and not only new units, but a totally new side for $20?

 

[Astromarine]

Or the Viking expansion for Medieval:Total War (the BEST strategy game around) and it's predecessor, the Mongol expansion for Shogun

 

[Moondog]

Anyone remember the Total Annihilation expansion pack? Core Contingency offered totally new maps, a map editor, 75 new units including new classes of units like hovercraft and seaplanes, gobs of new multiplayer maps, a new campaign, and so on. It was only $20. How about the BattleZone expansion which offered a new campaign and not only new units, but a totally new side for $20?

In terms of value for money, that was the best expansion ever released. There was more gameplay in that than most full games released these days

 

[Volourn]

Quite frankly, I don't thinke xpansion should change 'how a game is played'. If I wanted to play a different game; I'd buy a different one.

How many new feats,skills, and spells like things did MW or D2's expansion add? Did they have a 20-30 hour camapign to go with it? How many new monsters? etc., etc. There are also a lot of new items in SOU? In fact, there were too many new items. And, the toolset got its share of additions as well.

The Frpozen Throne expansion seems to have added a good number of stuff. The MW, and Diablo 2 one doesn't sound like a whole lot.

 

[Vault Dweller]

How many new feats,skills, and spells like things did MW or D2's expansion add

Well, let's see, D2 exp added 2 classes which, in a game that focuses on playing a class, means 40% gameplay value increase. So to answer your question, they added 60 new skills, new act, 17 new monsters, gameplay updates (increased stash size, increased resolution, skill tweaks for all characters, barb hireling, etc), tons of items including elite items for high level characters, HC recipes, runes, and jewels.

I did not play any of MW's 2 expansions yet, but according to people who did the expansions deliver plenty as well. New lands to explore, new monsters, new quests, the werewolf thing, new items, lotsa dungeons, better journal, etc.

So, it's kinda silly and very biased of you to say that MW and D2 exp do not sound like a lot more. You don't need to prove that most expansions suck to prove that SoU is not that bad. :wink:

 

[Volourn]

I never said most expansion sucks.I said, from my experience, SOU adds more than most expansions I have played. Also, I'm sorry to say, but on this baord, one shouldn't be accusing anyone of being bias. Lots of bias here. :wink: That's sadi, I fully amdit I'm "bias" towards NWN. Afterall, I like the game, so I should be bias. Of course, bias aside, there are things I know full well that the game des have its weaknesses.

From wHAt you just wrote, D2 seems like it be a good expansion for those who like the game; hwoever from the details you and others have given about MW's two ones; I'm not that impressed - espicially since from my experience ES dungeons are literally carbon copies of each other. Though; I'm sure the werewolf would be a fn addition. This, along with the vampire, is something BIo should think of adding to NWN. Heh.

 

[Binary]

Just adding my $0.02 to this conversation.

First, I have to say that I prefer 3rd person RPGs to 1st person RPGs (by a mile). Even so, I preferred MW to NWN for dozens of reasons: story, plot, graphics, soundtrack, engine...

But one thing, the way I see it, is unquestionable:

What did MW bring new to the genre? Nothing. It's just a technically improved, moddable, smaller Daggerfall

NWN did bring something new to the genre: the possibility for a human to play the role of the "Dungeon Master", a burden taken by the CPU on the rest of the existant RPGs.

How many times have there been such innovations to the genre in the last years? Since the release of Windows 95, I remember only 3 times this has happened:

Might & Magic 6 (improved on M&M7 and 8): a 1st person combat system switchable between real time and turn based.

Faery Tale Adventure 2: A 3rd person combat system that switched between RT and TB depending on how fast you were controlling your players (know it sounds confusing, has to be played to fully grasp the concept)

Diablo 1 (much improved on Diablo 2): random drops made out of a list of suffixes and prefixes

Even if some people like them and others don't, It's these kinds of innovations that might keep the CRPG genre from stagnating.

So for the innovation stated above, I take my hat off to NWN (even though it's an average game at best)

 

[Volourn]

To be fair, NWN isn't the first game to have a DM. That (dis) honour belongs to Vampire The Masquarde. However, it bombed in every way that matter - sales, critics, & fans did not like it at all, overall. As per usual, there are exemptions. Still, it was the first.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

In all honesty, SoU does seem to add a bit. You want to go by the numbers, there are quite a few more options. The problem from what I've seen is that it's rather hit-or-miss. I don't think they really thought things through, just randomly bestowed a few godlike things here and there while basically ignoring others, like barbarians. Druids they got about right, they seemed to suck before but are pretty decent now. They badly needed a wisdom boosting spell since all their attack spells depend on it for the saving throw, and they got persuade to spend some of their excess skill points on. Paladins, on the other hand, sucked before and trash everything now. They've got stackable 2nd level spells that give +2-5 and +4 charisma, and two new feats which fully exploit that capability, once divine might gets fixed. Clerics got some unneeded boosts, too. They were already most powerful class IMO, did they really need 1st level spells that eventually give +5 to hit and damage, +5 to AC, and 20% concealment? And the consensus from what I've seen is that the prestige classes are largely useless, because they couldn't be bothered to revamp the spellcasting system in exchange for everyone's 30 bucks.

If they are indeed responsible for the campaign, it does represent an improvement, though. Still not perfect, but a step in the right direction. People say things go downhill, though.

 

[Volourn]

Yeah, the prestige classes are definitely the most dissapointing. I haven't actually tried them yet so I can't say for sure. The prestige classes aren't bad; but they ain't really prestige though except for the possibly of Hide In Plain Sight. That sounds mighty powerful, and pehaps even unbalancing. I think they really need to do the extra work needed to allow for prestige classes to gain spells like normal.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Yeah, the prestige classes are definitely the most dissapointing. I haven't actually tried them yet so I can't say for sure. The prestige classes aren't bad; but they ain't really prestige though except for the possibly of Hide In Plain Sight. That sounds mighty powerful, and pehaps even unbalancing. I think they really need to do the extra work needed to allow for prestige classes to gain spells like normal.

Yeah, and Hide in Plain Sight is first level, too. Just tack a level of Shadowdancer onto your rogue and you're good to go.

I never thought I'd say prestige classes need boosting, but really compared to the regular classes, they don't seem to have much to offer. Even the non-spellcasting classes give you more.