Development Info Inside the Broken Hourglass engine

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Tags: Planewalker Games; The Broken Hourglass

This week, <b>Jason Compton</b> of <a href=http://www.planewalkergames.com/>Planewalker Games</a> fame brings us a <a href=http://www.planewalkergames.com/content/view/75/1/>modding tutorial</a> for the WeiNGINE powering his upcoming RPG, <a href=http://www.planewalkergames.com/content/view/32/46/>The Broken Hourglass</a>, where he talks about several aspects of sprite creation.<blockquote>If it walks, talks, swings a weapon or just gently moves across the screen in The Broken Hourglass, chances are that it's a sprite. Because WeiNGINE uses 2D graphics techniques, most animated objects, from heroes to water fountains, are represented by sprites. Conceptually, sprite animation works much like a flip-book. Instead of pages, the engine flips through small PNG images. To make a character walk across the screen from right to left, that character's sprite has 12 frames which represent a complete, looping walk cycle.
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In theory, these images could all be drawn by hand. In practice, this would be impractical. Animating a single humanoid hero requires roughly 4,600 frames. Add in the full roster of available equipment for a hero sprite, and the total leaps to nearly 30,000 frames! As a result, the frames are generated not with traditional 2D drawing techniques but through 3D animation software. Models are created, rigged, and animated in a 3D rendering package and then the results are saved as sequences of PNG frames, specially labeled so that the sprite files used in the engine can find the right images at the right time.
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</blockquote>If you're interested in all kinds of sprite trivia, give it a read.
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Thanks, <b>jcompton</b>!

 

[Sir_Brennus]

<b>Jason Compton</b>

In theory, these images could all be drawn by hand. In practice, this would be impractical. Animating a single humanoid hero requires roughly 4,600 frames. Add in the full roster of available equipment for a hero sprite, and the total leaps to nearly 30,000 frames! As a result, the frames are generated not with traditional 2D drawing techniques but through 3D animation software. Models are created, rigged, and animated in a 3D rendering package and then the results are saved as sequences of PNG frames, specially labeled so that the sprite files used in the engine can find the right images at the right time!

Yes, and in the end you'll get a band of characters who stroll around, jerking from left to right, flopping around and looking like chinese theatre or like Cartman from South Park.

Jeez, I really would like to love BROKEN HOURGLASS, but c'mon that system looked already silly in the IE games.

But... I know I am in the minority (as always) here at the codex where nostalgia makes sprite based games look better than polygon based ones. But try for yourself: compare
this from BG1 (sprite based)
http://video.google.com/url?docid=8...qHY6_o&usg=AL29H210auW5TVOK5Y1vvAr6yFmSVtJZyw

with the ingame scenes from PoR2 (polygon based charcters)
http://video.google.com/url?docid=-...TKvQSk&usg=AL29H20VMnOCP66aY4CBSMvR4jbniKvkxA

Which looks better and feels right?

BTW: Even AoD uses polygon characters, doesn't it?

 

[Fez]

Hand drawn art tends to age better, but I can accept the practicality of using polygons.

 

[Ladonna]

Yes, lets all hate Broken Hourglass because it might not have uber graphics. I heartily agree. :!:

By the way....what do I need to type in for a salute smily?

 

[Fez]

The URL to the image on DAC that everyone else is using.

 

[Sir_Brennus]

Yes, lets all hate Broken Hourglass because it might not have uber graphics. I heartily agree. quote]


I don't talk about uber grafx. I just mentioned that I think that poly characters look and feel better and are more versatile. And I don't think that giving the best effort will hurt the sales of an indie project.

I repeat: Does AoD use ASCII grafix - No? It uses 3D graphics and poly based characters - and it makes the look of the game feel right. Sprites on prerendered backgrounds don't feel right to me.

So, why is it stupid to point out a fact that might be a problem for "Gfx whores" like me? (Yeah, the one playing DISCIPLES OF STEEL ...)

 

[jcompton]

I don't talk about uber grafx. I just mentioned that I think that poly characters look and feel better and are more versatile. And I don't think that giving the best effort will hurt the sales of an indie project.

Except that the sprites are in fact obtained from 3D models, or "poly characters" as you put it. So while I respect the fact that you have an objection (and must in turn make it clear that there's nothing we're going to do about it) I am confused as to the exact nature of the objection. Rather than having the game render the characters and their equipment in realtime from 3D models, the 3D models have been prerendered as hundreds of thousands of PNG frames which are played back on-demand. (This was true for the BG games as well--they used Lightwave, I believe, for their models. Our artists are using different packages but the basic idea is the same.)

In any event, we do not employ sprites out of any sort of religious or throwback preference, but because the engine we are using for the game does not have a 3D renderer in it, nor can we integrate one at a reasonable cost*. We are playing the hand we dealt ourselves, so to speak.

* - ("cost" referring not only to money but to time, stability, learning curves, and so forth--we are quite aware that perfectly serviceable 3D rendering game engines are available at little to no cost, but none can easily be made to support our scripting system.)

 

[mister lamat]

you do know it's 2007, yea?

 

[Hazelnut]

you do know it's 2007, yea?

What? Is pragmatism somehow passe now we're in '07 or something?

 

[Dagon]

Hmm It's quite interesting, but i think these graphics are really nice.
Of course with 3D models the game would be easier to modify, like adding newlooking weapons etc. But with sprites it looks better than it would with the low-poly models.

 

[kingcomrade]

Sprites 4evah. 2d>3d

 

[[Jez]]

as long as it looks better than Geneforge no one can complain

 

[Sir_Brennus]

Sprites 4evah. 2d>3d

Thanky you for your statement kc, but did you actually compare the two videos I posted or is it more like a american heartland-like believe, means dogma?

 

[Ladonna]

as long as it looks better than Geneforge no one can complain

A fair comment.

The graphics look fine. Make sure the User interface is nice, and focus on the gameplay now please. Polish it until it shines, and you will have a winner (As long as its everything you say it is....).

If you take the graphics comments to heart, it will be on the backburner for the next 2 years and then new whiners will leap in and flame.

If you get enough money to continue your hobby to the next level, sweet. Maybe then think about updating your engine. But if you have the oldschoolers interests at heart, you can get away with this by innovating with gameplay and having a polished product*


*A polished product. Very rare these days, while graphics are a dime a dozen.

 

[Sir_Brennus]

as long as it looks better than Geneforge no one can complain

A fair comment.

The graphics look fine. Make sure the User interface is nice, and focus on the gameplay now please. Polish it until it shines, and you will have a winner (As long as its everything you say it is....).

If you take the graphics comments to heart, it will be on the backburner for the next 2 years and then new whiners will leap in and flame.

If you get enough money to continue your hobby to the next level, sweet. Maybe then think about updating your engine. But if you have the oldschoolers interests at heart, you can get away with this by innovating with gameplay and having a polished product*


*A polished product. Very rare these days, while graphics are a dime a dozen.

Valid argument. They should come forward with the project, earn some ca$h and think about what needs to be upgraded.

We might resurrect this topic then :D

 

[Ladonna]

Valid argument. They should come forward with the project, earn some ca$h and think about what needs to be upgraded.

We might resurrect this topic then

Indeedydo.

The reason old RPG's had shite graphics was because the people making them were throwing most of their time into creating the engine under the hood. Action games largely did things the opposite way. Sure, the graphics eventually got better, but they were always behind vs action games.

Where has super graphics gotten us with RPG's in regards to the industries inputs? A slow dumbing down of mechanics and Roleplaying, and into the realms of action gaming basicly. More time spent on candy than the inner workings.

I hope these indy guys do things the old fashioned way.

 

[Higher Game]

I'd rather have nice looking sprites instead of cheap 3d models, but I'd rather have good gameplay more than anything else. There is simply something beautiful about hand drawn art and animation, though...

 

[Annonchinil]

What I want is variety in environments, FEAR had amazing graphics, but there is something about seeing the same thing again and again that lowers the presentation.
I just finished replaying MGS3 and the fact that the environment changed was one of the things that kept me interested in the game and the new areas.

Since TBH is set in a single city how much variety in the environments can we expect? Will there be places that seem original or will there be sewers? Is there going to be any really atmospheric setting, sort of like the docs district in BGII? So far Planescape looks better that TBH, why can’t there be better character sprites than generic with different color setting from BGII? The city is under some sort of siege, is it actually going to look like that, or is it going to be an enlarged version of the screenshots, where you can’t tell that there is trouble in the city?

There are lots of ways to add to the visual presentation of a game that go beyond, sprite and pixel, in which you are clearly disadvantaged, would you care some time in the future to explain what you are doing to improve the presentation of certain areas, hopefully with new screenshots?

 

[Globbi]

2d can be as good or as ugly as 3d and it doesn't really depend on the engine. I don't see much quality difference between characters in PoR2 and in BG.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Valid argument. They should come forward with the project, earn some ca$h and think about what needs to be upgraded.

The use of a $ in the word cash, is making you look cool, and not silly in any way. Keep it up.

 

[OccupatedVoid]

Valid argument. They should come forward with the project, earn some ca$h and think about what needs to be upgraded.

The use of a $ in the word cash, is making you look cool, and not silly in any way. Keep it up.

What about "Micro$oft"?

 

[Jasede]

Ah, this reminds me-
89% of all people that bitch about Microsoft are stupid, said Dr. J. R. Farnsworth in a worldwide study conducted 2004, published in Scientific Inquirer No. 167.

 

[Naked Ninja]

DP is the expert in looking silly, so pay attention when he speaks on this topic.

3D looks so much better than 2D, agreed, and is generally more efficient on the gfx card these days, but pragamtism is king. Coding up a new 3D engine is a hefty undertaking. If you ever feel like moving to 3D, check out Torque, nice engine, cheap, helpful community, powerful scripting language. Combined with a database it really rocks.

 

[Jasede]

3D looks so much better than 2D

I stopped reading there. Who says so? It's not true. It's just not true.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Simply the ability to move your camera around to a view that feels most comfortable to the player makes it superior. 2D always gets annoying when you walk behind tree leaves or houses or whatever. None of the solutions, from making the obstacle transparent to outlining your char is as elegant as simply being able to swing your camera around to have a better view.

Oh, and the abvility to look up. Looking up is fun. Always having to be the hovering eye in the sky gets tedious. Choice is better, isn't that the Codex mantra?