Preview ToEE spotted at German thingy by RPGDot

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Temple of Elemental Evil; Troika Games

<a href="http://www.rpgdot.com/">RPGDot</a> has put up their <a href="http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=712">preview</a> of what they saw of <a href="http://www.greyhawkgame.com">Temple of Elemental Evil</a> at that German games convention. Here's their impression of it:
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<blockquote><b>First Impression</b>
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Very good. D&D veterans and hard-core CRPGers wont get around this one.</blockquote>
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So.. Yeah. Of course, there's a little more there than that, but that's the first impression.
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Thanks, <b>Myrthos</b>!

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

hey

I hope I wont have to have some real D&D knowledge to enjoy this game.

 

[Peacedog]

The 3.5 rules are much more intuitive than the 2e rules, I think. So it should be pretty easy to pick everything up. Things are more uniform compared to 2e, which was sort of all over the map. For example, higher numbers are always better (so while 18 str is better than 16, 18 ac is also better than 16 ac). In 2e, sometimes lower numbers were better (2 ac better than 5).

 

[Jed]

Re: hey

I hope I wont have to have some real D&D knowledge to enjoy this game.

Here's all the rules, for free. All ya gotta do is read. Actually this is the 3e rules, but most things haven't changed much, if at all, and the same site will have the 3.5 up soon enough.

 

[Voss]

Can't anyone in the friggin' preview business fucking write?

Semi-literate non-fact checking morons.

Very good. D&D veterans and hard-core CRPGers wont get around this one.

Won't get around this one?
Is it blocking the bloody road?
What the hell is this sentence supposed to mean? They will automatically pick it up, or not? Or its just in the way? Unavoidable?

And I'm not touching

the early pen&paper Temple of Elemental Evil modules belonged (in my opinion) to the weaker of their kind

Feh.

Oh, and the 3.5 SRDs are up on the Wizards site... people can go there.

 

[Dhruin]

Some mediocre phrasing in her non-native language on a tight schedule makes her a semi-literate moron?

What were the facts she got wrong, by the way?

She's also entitled to an opinion on the original ToEE module. From your post I presume you think the original ToEE is driven by a strong narrative? I'd love some details on that.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

The module itself left a lot of things open for the DM to decide on how they would handle things. It would basically give brief rumor reports on things so if the players wanted to go check those things out, the DM would have to use his or her imagination on what the deal was with those things. Of course, that would depend on both the players and the DM.

 

[Dhruin]

I DMed a ToEE campaign many years ago and we had a great time, despite my failings as a DM. I have fond memories of it and it's a great hack and slash module. In hindsight, though, it has some shortcomings: there's few detailed/interesting NPCs and an overly long dungeon crawl with nicely incrementing combat encounters but not a lot of originality or depth. I've no doubt a good DM could add lots of roleplay goodness to it but it's pretty reasonable to think someone might find it too combat-heavy and not much else.

Apart from having a different opinion on ToEE, I'd still like to know the facts Voss thinks Jaz got wrong.

 

[protobob]

I'll be honest, I'm mainly looking forward to the turn-based tactical combat, any rpg goodness will just be icing on the cake.

 

[Voss]

Some mediocre phrasing in her non-native language on a tight schedule makes her a semi-literate moron?

What were the facts she got wrong, by the way?

She's also entitled to an opinion on the original ToEE module. From your post I presume you think the original ToEE is driven by a strong narrative? I'd love some details on that.

Its more the trend of every review/preview site that gets posted these days to be riddlied with poor grammar, spelling, factual errors, etc. This is just the latest in a long line of poorly done reviews/previews. This one just happened to set me off, and frankly tight schedules? Come on. It could have waited a few minutesfor an editor to go over the text (all of 4 paragraphs!). It didn't even include any new information, so it certainly didn't need to be rushed. My comment on facts comes more from other previews (where say, the writers lose the abilties to count, get names wrong, etc.) more than this particular one. There aren't really enough facts in this particular one to bother writing it in the first place.

And, in fact, you're presuming wrong. I was critiqueing the sentence itself. The original module doesn't have a strong narrative at all- its simply a list of encounter areas. Narrative wasn't Gygax's strong point, he tended to leave that entirely to the DMs.

 

[triCritical]

I think a lot of people who diss the module as hack and slash are missing the point. As many people have already mentioned it was left purposely vague so the DM can be creative. But is the hack and slash aspect really bad? Afterall combat is a large portion of playing DnD. And the 3/3.5 rules are indeed very tactical, much moreso then their previous incarnations. So the way I look at this game is as a game in which we will have the non-linearity and open-endedness we have come to miss in CRPG these days as well as an infamous setting to have some great combat.

 

[Peacedog]

As many people have already mentioned it was left purposely vague so the DM can be creative.

Cain & co have pointed out on numerous occasions they have taken this aspect of the module and then used creative liberty to create a bunch of content. I myself am not familiar with the module, but something tells me that the 36(+?) NPCs who can join the party aren't simply the 36 most colorful NPCs from the module.

But is the hack and slash aspect really bad?

Not really. I always like a little more depth, but it isn't like we've got a lot of good hack & slash options these days (and that is truly a sad statement). But it sounds like Troika will be striking a good balance between the "R" and the typical CRPG stuff (that being the killing, the looting, etc), and that's gravy as far as I am concerned. If they pull it off.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I DMed a ToEE campaign many years ago and we had a great time, despite my failings as a DM. I have fond memories of it and it's a great hack and slash module. In hindsight, though, it has some shortcomings: there's few detailed/interesting NPCs and an overly long dungeon crawl with nicely incrementing combat encounters but not a lot of originality or depth. I've no doubt a good DM could add lots of roleplay goodness to it but it's pretty reasonable to think someone might find it too combat-heavy and not much else.

Okay, look at it like this.. How many post apocalyptic games are there in the world that aren't about killing as many things as possible? The setting alone pretty much says that it's going to be a kill-o-rama and has been as long as people have made games with that setting - with the notable exception of Fallout and Fallout 2.

So, it's not like Troika's people don't have an established record of taking combaty things and making them more well rounded. That's not to say there won't be some dungeon crawling in ToEE, there will be, but I don't think it'll be a straight up crawl.

 

[Voss]

And if they flesh out Hommlet and Nulb, there are plenty of room for options, particularly RP wise. There is a lot of room for non-combat situations in the villages. Particularly deceit, betrayal, investigation and trying to find out what exactly is going on.

And isn't subdual/non lethal damage in? That sort of thing leads to prisoners, which leads to dialogue...or at least choices. And there are a fair number of captives within the temple itself, which leads to decisions about how to deal with them.
Add in the half-dozen or so factions within the temple itself, all vying for dominance...
there is definitely potential for other things in addition to combat.

 

[Volourn]

Sorry, but the original TOEE was all about dunegon hacking. Don't allow nostalgis to make you forget that. Yeha, yeah. The gods at Troika will add choices here, and there; but it still will be a combat mod with a horrible story with low role-playing since you are straightjacketed by their lame party alignment rule.

 

[Voss]

I like the party alignment thing. It makes sense and allows for very different approaches-
not having a party of CE maniacs being approached by every old woman wanting their cat saved. It actually adds more roleplaying option since it allows for an overall, consistent feel to behavior, rather than randomly choosing from 4 dialogue options that are more about getting the most (XP, gold etc) out of a particular dialogue branch. Think of it as a psychology experiment: a static model that you have to operate within at all times vs. a dynamic model that approximates bipolar conditions.

And I know the module was about dungeon hacking- but there is room for other things. And there are a lot of details for the game that have to be filled in, because they weren't in the module at all, and it won't work otherwise. (A lot of what was missing was transitional stuff and finding out what was going on. Finding certain artifacts and important pieces of information in the module was almost impossible except by randomly stumbling across it. To make the game work, Troika has to fill those things in.

 

[Volourn]

Quite frankly, the restrictive alignment system is so anti the spirit of the dnd alignment system it's sad. The alignment system is about giving oppurtunity for characters; not restricted in your outlook. In TOEE's world there are no fallen paladins, there are no redeemable villains, and that is so completely lame; it saddens me and should sadden true dnd gamers. Then again, you aren't really role-playing an individual; but a multi headed monster.

I agree. I expect Troika to add in a lot of this extra cool stuff. One example is the ability to choose how you reate your characters, and swalling frogs (awesome effect) amongst other stuff. These are the reasons why despite my alignment problems with TOEE, as well as the pathetic story; I am still very much looking forward to the game. I expect it to be a more sophiticated IWD. I expect it to be better than the NWNs, PSTs, Arcanums, and IWDs, and below the BGs, and FOs.

We shall see...

 

[Psilon]

The alignment system is about giving oppurtunity for characters; not restricted in your outlook. In TOEE's world there are no fallen paladins, there are no redeemable villains, and that is so completely lame; it saddens me and should sadden true dnd gamers.

No, there's just no opportunity to create a fallen paladin, which no other game gives you either. Did NWN or IWD let you choose any alignment other than LG when creating a paladin?

It looks like you can still drop towards Chaotic Evil by slaughtering townsfolk and recklessly tossing fireballs. You just can't have two paladins taking orders from a group of blackguards and CN assassins. Which they wouldn't anyway, barring exceptionally good player performance or exceptionally bad DMing.

As for the disappearing dialogue options, it just removes anarchist options from lawful parties, psychopath options from NG parties, and so on. Sure beats finding out I slipped two points toward evil just for renegotiating a reward.

 

[Voss]

The alignment system in DnD has never been about opportunity. Its a guideline for a rather simple nine-aspected world view.
I like the idea of having to have a actual system of ethics and morals rather than one that can shift from one conversation to the next. Seems more like real people to me. (well, OK, not really, since I've never met actual people that deviate very far from self-interest)

And honestly, true D&D gamers? There are a lot of different ways to play any game. There isn't any such thing as a true or false gamer.

And I like non-redeemable villains. There is no such thing as forgiveness, redemption or atonement. A fall is unforgiveable and eternal.

 

[Volourn]

I like non redeemable villains. However, NOT everyone is irredeemable though it is admittedly harder to be redeemed than it is to fall..

Anyways, TOEE's alignments isn't about individual characters (other than what characters can be in what parties). It's all about the Collective... err.. Borg... err... 5 Headed Monster. Not to mention, the silly alignment shceme they have won't even allow for my fave pnp party to be recreated as is. Talk about lameness in nonsensical ultra foolishness of the highest order.

 

[Voss]

You're getting a bit incoherent. Why not leave it at you don't like it?

 

[Araanor]

Anyways, TOEE's alignments isn't about individual characters (other than what characters can be in what parties). It's all about the Collective... err.. Borg... err... 5 Headed Monster. Not to mention, the silly alignment shceme they have won't even allow for my fave pnp party to be recreated as is. Talk about lameness in nonsensical ultra foolishness of the highest order.

Blah blah. The silly alignment scheme every other game uses means it doesn't friggin matter. TOEE is making sure it does matter. A game can't have the watchful eye of a DM so certain measures need to be taken if you want to tailor the adventures.

 

[Jed]

Considering that Volourn's flagship C"R"PG is NWN (or Bio in general, at least), in which you can "be" any alignment you choose but it doesn't have any effect on the game whatsoever (except maybe gold count), I don't take his contrarian comments too seriously.

 

[Volourn]

Once again, you lose. If the best defense of Troika's lame alignment scheme is that "Volourn likes BIO" than you have already lost the argument. Not surprising though. Oncce again, Troika promised that they would be very dedicated to D&D rules, and their alignment schme is an affront to those very D&D rules. Alignment is not a straight jacket; but a tool. It is also an individual rating system; not a party system. Please try again; but next time make sense.


P.S. Actually, my flagship CRPG for role-playing in the actual game would be FO1&2; but hey if you continually forget that that just shows how blind you are.

 

[Psilon]

Out of curiosity, what IS your "fave party," Volourn? I suspect that's closer to the root of your discontent.