Editorial GameSpy gets pissy with Fallout fans

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: BioWare; Fallout 3 (Van Buren)

Yup, <A href="http://www.gamespy.com/">GameSpy</a> has done up a little <A href="http://www.gamespy.com/counterspy/december03/spy14/">He said, He said editorial</a> written by one <s>idiot</s> person working for them. Here's the part where he gets pissy about <A href="http://www.interplay.com/fallout">Fallout</a>'s fan base getting riled up over the problems with <A href="http://www.interplay.com/falloutbos">Fallout Tactics</a>'s inconsistancies with the rest of the series:
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<blockquote>Fallout fans pull this stuff all the time. They flamed Fallout: Tactics from the minute it was announced, feeling that only they were qualified to judge the direction of the future of the franchise. I remember a long-running whine over a Tactics screenshot that drove the Fallout fans nuts because some lizard-beast had hair! "How dare you! Don't you know these things are reptiles? They don't have hair! You're ruining the franchise!"
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I reiterate - gamers are buying a game, not stock in the company. The game's creators only owe gamers their best efforts to produce a quality, bug-free product. They are not required to submit to gamers for approval if they decide to move the storyline forward or change the gameplay mechanics, nor do gamers have some divine right to a sequel to a series they enjoy. If they don't like what the developers are producing - they don't have to buy it. </blockquote>
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Two things about the above:
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<ul><li> No, I don't have to buy it. That's why I've gone from buying several games a month down to maybe five per year.</li><li> <i>If fans don't like the changes, they don't have to watch it!</i> is the kind of thinking that's keeping <i>Star Trek: Enterprise</i> in tune out land.</li></ul>
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There's also a funny little bit about <A href="Http://www.swkotor.com">Knights of the Old Republic</a> having a small development team when the manual has <i>four pages</i> of credits, two of them devoted to <A href="Http://www.bioware.com">BioWare</a> people. Thanks to <b>Puuk</b> for pointing that out in <A href="http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3156">the comment thread</a> where I spotted this on <A href="http://www.nma-fallout.com/">No Mutants Allowed</a> after <b>Rosh</b> pointed me there.
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[Vault Dweller]

The real question in the developers vs fans debate is "what does every change add to the game?" Take this hairy/non-hairy deathclaw issue, for example. Regardless of the simple fact that lizards don't have hair, what did it add to the game? Nothing. It's not even something that marketing monkeys can put on the box "Get a load of this folks! This game got lizards who got hair!!!! Is it far out or what?!!!" Nobody cares about shit like that. So the developers pissed off the fans while failed to attract new ones. That's a mistake, and the blame belongs on those who decided to show their originality and creativity in this fucked up manner, not on the fans.

As for the retarded "gamers buy games not stocks" argument, the guy who made it forgot a simple fact that gamers are the clients who may or may not decide to "do business" with this particular company. Most of businesses jump out of their pants to secure, please, and keep clients, while gaming industry treat gamers like beggars who can't be choosers, and that's where they are wrong. I really hope that FOBOS crashes and burns to prove my point.

 

[triCritical]

Any gaming fan that rags on FO fans for this are hypocrites. LIke VD said, somethings don't have hair, and its just plain stupid to give them hair. But I have yet to go to a message board for a game PnP or CRPG that had a large fanbase and not hear fans complain.

I mean what give Monte Cooke the right to complain about the 3.5 rules. He doesn't work for WotC. Take the rules and write your add-ons, nuff said.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I think someone should make a D&D game with neon orange colored Drow, personally.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I think someone should make a D&D game with neon orange colored Drow, personally.

With hairy backs, even! Oooh! And give the females facial hair! Yeah yeah!

 

[Volourn]

Woudln't bother me. I always thought the outcry over hairy deathclaws went toof ar. Then again, some DnD fans are like that too. Too me, it's just not a big deal. I jduge games on more important things. That said, it's simple, if the developers feel an unpopular chnage is worth it; they should do it. If they fans convince them otherwsie; then they can change their minds. Simple as that.

 

[Spazmo]

What--GameSpy, post something wildly stupid without any idea of what they're talking about?

Well ain't that some kinda shit.

 

[Voss]

I *love* the caption on the last screenshot:

Can you imagine the storyline of KotOR being written by committee?

With Lucas Arts invovled, I can't imagine that it wasn't. Theres simply no way that the storyline didn't have tons of restrictions, opinions and limitations tossed at it. And considering how ground breaking it isn't. 'Ok, here the player has to confront the first mini-boss, but we have to keep his lackeys flexible, so that the player can still go to the planets in any order. But at the end, the player has to work his way through an almost endless battle to get to the Big Bad. And then we have to do something to make that fight harder than normal fights, so....'
This isn't bad, per say, but it isn't as amazing as that quote makes it sound.

Its also funny that he compares them to TV, movies and books, and comments how different games are. Um. No. The exact same things happen. People praise, people bitch, people whine. Fan sites, FAQs, Fanfics, encyclopedic knowledge that sometimes exceeds the creator's? Check. See Star Wars, Star Trek, Buffy, Harry Potter.

As for the negative side. Sure, you have to filter the tons of crap you get from fans. Most of it is just a personal opinion from someone that wants more of one aspect. Which you can't necessarily give, because other people want something else.
Its when those desires become clearly overwhelming that you need to start paying attention.

The point about (above, not there) the deathclaws is good. Change that'll irritate people and bring nothing? Stupid. Change that the devs think will be positive and a handfull of fans bitch about because they're scared of change? If its well thought out and adds something, its probably good.
The bottom line is: Fans, in mass, are a useful guideline. Don't piss em off more than you have to, otherwise you'll lose sales.

Edit: Why the writer decided to make himself sound like an ass is a mystery only gamespy can answer.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Don't piss em off more than you have to, otherwise you'll lose sales.

Exactly. And what really pisses me off about the whole thing is these idiots who come around and say "Well, if you don't like it then don't buy it."

Okay, fucktard, let me explain something to you. If I don't like it, chances are alot of my friends don't like it because we pretty much know what we want in a game. And, while we may not be a majority, my friends have friends that I don't know about who have friends that they don't know about, etc. etc. on and on ad nauseam....

The point is, the minority that is I and my friends can quickly become a majority if someone doesn't at least listen and try to understand our needs. Granted, going into a forum and flaming is not the way to get what you want. That's like giving a screaming brat their way. Not gonna happen. But constructive criticism and heartfelt suggestions should definitely be paid heed to.

Well Mr. "Don't Like It, Don't Buy It", guess what? I won't. And I will tell all my friends what a piece of crap it is and they'll tell all their friends, and so on and so on. Granted, some of those people may still buy the game, and they would have every right to do so. But the bottom line in the end equals lost sales. Now take my minority group there and place quite a few more all over the world and you can begin to see a pattern unfolding there.

Fans are important. Listen to them. Alot of time they know what's gonna sell the game. Not some muppet in a suit sitting alone in their office spouting out what HE thinks will sell. Yeah, right.

 

[EEVIAC]

What--GameSpy, post something wildly stupid without any idea of what they're talking about?

Well ain't that some kinda shit.

On the plus side Spazmo, at least there's another company to add to the "people RPG Codex has pissed off" list. I'm sure this Fuckpy is going to having so many great gaming moments with FOBOS, even though the vast majority of hardcore FO Fans, whoever the fuck they are, have been saying that the game is going to be shit, not because its RT, not because its a console game, but because almost every single design decision that has been made public makes it seem so probable as to be true.

The most galling aspect of this guy's rant is the assumption that the people who play the games have no idea about gameplay design/dynamics, and therefore have no right to opine on those things. Sure, I can't write code, I can't do 3D art, but I'm arrogant enough to think that I have some good ideas on how games can be made more fun, (what about quad-wielding, one weapon in each hand, and another two for the dragon disciple wings. :wink: .)

The best games come from a person or a team with a vision and the guts to bull through marketing weasels and lowest-common denominator thinking. That's what gets you a Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic or a Legend of Zelda. Making a game for the "Average gamer" only gets you an average game.

The only constructive comment in the entire mire of shit. Wasn't this the whole purpose of most of the criticism of FO, DX, Star Wars, whatever fans? Make a good game that adheres to the true nature of the world/franchise/progenitor and not an average piece of crap whose sole purpose is to widen demographics.

I make comments about shitty game/game design because I can. Some of us have the option of remaining objective while not recieving T-Shirts, commemerative coffee mugs, and $50 hooker kickbacks.

 

[DemonKing]

I thought it was a reasonably balanced article...afterall he did note that there are problems when the fans are ignored (citing Commandos 3 as an example).

Of course, daring to criticise the Fallout fans no doubt strikes a nerve in some quarters...since they are often illogically opposed to any Fallout spin-off that isn't entitled "Fallout 3"...personally I don't care for console titles but if FOBOS can make enough money for BIS to produce some new quality PC CRPGs I'm not going to complain.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

BIS's last "new quality PC CRPG" was released 4 years ago, and the people who were involved have pretty much all moved on to greener pastures. I have only slightly less faith in Origin to make "new quality PC CRPGs" by this point.

As for the Fallout stuff, we really need position papers or something here. It really gets tiresome explaining the same thing over and over again to those folks out there who just happen to have the kind of piercing insight lesser mortals lack.

 

[Rosh]

BIS's last "new quality PC CRPG" was released 4 years ago, and the people who were involved have pretty much all moved on to greener pastures. I have only slightly less faith in Origin to make "new quality PC CRPGs" by this point.

That is pretty funny since nearly all of the original Origin people went their separate ways. I really can't remember if any of the original people (pre-Electronic Asshats) are still there in Austin.

Hell, Origin didn't just help make the CRPG genre what it was today. Back in its prime, they did nearly everything and they did it damn near perfect. They actually QA'd the games, the developers hell-bent on finding the bugs more than the people who are paid to find them.

That's why people's faith in Interplay, especially with their known handling of spin-offs, swirled down the shitter. It really looked like the programmers were spewing out the code to give to the testers to figure out what, if anything, is broken. The poor QA guy looks at it and mentally cries as they don't know where to begin, while the words "No trabaja..." softly whisper from his lips in a sort of mantra.

 

[DemonKing]

BIS's last "new quality PC CRPG" was released 4 years ago, and the people who were involved have pretty much all moved on to greener pastures. I have only slightly less faith in Origin to make "new quality PC CRPGs" by this point.

Well I personally think IWD (and to a lesser extent its sequel) where high quality PC CRPGs, but if you're the kind of person that thinks Arcanum was god's gift to gamers then I can see your problem.

However given the rather large staff-turnover at BIS of late and interplay's financial woes you may be right as far as BIS' chances to produce further quality titles.

 

[Rosh]

Well I personally think IWD (and to a lesser extent its sequel) where high quality PC CRPGs, but if you're the kind of person that thinks Arcanum was god's gift to gamers then I can see your problem.

You're a rare breed, it appears.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Rare breed? I think that the iply forums are full of people like him, let's see here:
Fallout fans hate any game that is not FO3 - check
FOBOS' success will result in quality RPG titles (that's too funny to type) - check
IWD and IWD2 were hight quality RPGs - check
Arcanum sucked - check

Yep, it's pretty much the standard profile. There is nothing special or rare about the boy

 

[Azael]

I'm curious about his dislike of fans. After all, fans are often the people who not only buy the game, but also provide free advertisement for it by creating fan sites, telling about the game to their friends, make mods for it, etc. In mostlines of business, catering to your customers is considered important, but apparently not in the computer games industry where fans should shut up and open their wallets. Of course, that's not to say that developers should slavishly follow the fans word, since fans tend to be a fairly heterogeneous crowd.

 

[voodoo1man]

The best games come from a person or a team with a vision and the guts to bull through marketing weasels and lowest-common denominator thinking. That's what gets you a Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

Oh, the irony, the irony! It is too much, sir!

 

[Seven]

Rare breed? I think that the iply forums are full of people like him, let's see here:
Fallout fans hate any game that is not FO3 - check
FOBOS' success will result in quality RPG titles (that's too funny to type) - check
IWD and IWD2 were hight quality RPGs - check
Arcanum sucked - check

Yep, it's pretty much the standard profile. There is nothing special or rare about the boy

Yes I too agree. Those boards are filled with this type, and so Arcanum didn't have the best graphics and combat balance was shit. The game still compensated; the fact that I'm still playing it is a testament to its greatness. Additionally, I've noticed a lot of new posters in the forum, a lot of them get flamed and never return, but this new trend of posters is still disturbing.

 

[Seven]

The best games come from a person or a team with a vision and the guts to bull through marketing weasels and lowest-common denominator thinking. That's what gets you a Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

Oh, the irony, the irony! It is too much, sir!

Who posted that?

 

[Sheriff05]

The best games come from a person or a team with a vision and the guts to bull through marketing weasels and lowest-common denominator thinking. That's what gets you a Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

Oh, the irony, the irony! It is too much, sir!

screw irony, That quotes a fucking joke, right?? :shock:

 

[triCritical]

Don't get me wrong, I like KotOR, but it is the epitome of lowest common denominator thinking, cliche plot devices, gay pary banter for teenagers, everyone will have fun kind of game, lets vote on features for the game, and use the most popular Star Wars crap developed game I have ever seen.

But it's got atmosphere, in the Morrowind sense and I dig those things.

 

[Montez]

screw irony, That quotes a fucking joke, right?? :shock:

If you think that's funny, check out the caption to the KOTOR screenshot at the bottom of the article.

 

[DemonKing]

Rare breed? I think that the iply forums are full of people like him, let's see here:
Fallout fans hate any game that is not FO3 - check
FOBOS' success will result in quality RPG titles (that's too funny to type) - check
IWD and IWD2 were hight quality RPGs - check
Arcanum sucked - check

Yep, it's pretty much the standard profile. There is nothing special or rare about the boy

OK - let's be fair.

I didn't say "Fallout fans hate any game that is not Fallout 3", only that some Fallout fans only want Fallout titles to be CRPGs (as opposed to console or strategy games). Check.

I didn't say FOBOS's success will equal high quality titles - I said that I hope that the money they make if it is a success can keep BIS around long enough to continue creating high quality PC titles. PC! Check.

I really enjoyed IWD (and as I said to a lesser exent IWD2). Ok they were linear - but the graphics, gameplay, music and sound were all fantastic, particulary in the original. I also enjoyed the Fallout series...so what? Check

I didn't say Arcanum sucked. I finished it, but decided that its weaknesses (graphics, combat, dialog system - by which I mean everyone on the planet was rude to my half-orc but decided to acept him once I pointed out that they were being a little unfair, useless NPCS) did not match its strengths (non-linearity, large world). However some people like this kind of game more than others, just like I like IWD more than you. Check.

Seems to me you're fitting the standard profile for an RPG Codex poster rather more than I fit the profile for a BIS forum poster, but hey, if you're afraid to break away from the pack and say something original...then don't let me stop you.

Yes I too agree. Those boards are filled with this type. Additionally, I've noticed a lot of new posters in the forum, a lot of them get flamed and never return, but this new trend of posters is still disturbing.

Well don't worry - I for one intend to stay around and express my honest opinions...but don't worry, just because I like IWD it doesn't mean that I didn't think the NWN OC was shit.

 

[Rosh]

Who let this clueless blunder last this long around here?

OK - let's be fair.

Let's.

I didn't say "Fallout fans hate any game that is not Fallout 3", only that some Fallout fans only want Fallout titles to be CRPGs (as opposed to console or strategy games). Check.

Good boy for swallowing Chuck's bullshit. Good little mindless toadie. You fell for it like a champ chump. Back in the real world, Fallout fans are really only upset if a game has the name of Fallout but lacks to have the setting of such. Now, since you have the apparent intelligence to use a browser, I will assume you are able to do enough research on the subject.

How many of the Fallout spin-offs haven't skullfucked the setting mercilessly?

I didn't say FOBOS's success will equal high quality titles - I said that I hope that the money they make if it is a success can keep BIS around long enough to continue creating high quality PC titles. PC! Check.

You, sir, are an idiot. You have NO CLUE about Interplay's budgeting schedule or their methods. Do you honestly think that BIS is likely to stay around for long in its current form? Interplay has lost a LOT of their top level talent there, the rest are likely just staying around to see one final thing done before they leave or chance some Interplay office gimp coming by and trying to nervously explain why Interplay can't pay them. Buying FOS will not be any assurance that the money will go towards BIS; thinking such is unbelievably stupid. Buying Fallout Tactics didn't help Interplay any more with making better games because the quality controls bit them in the ass (again, about the setting thing). Buying FOS will really have no other effect aside from giving Interplay a bit of money that will be sponged up by standing debts, holes that will undoubtedly be thirsty for more money to fill them as they are quite deep. If anything, it will only be encouragement for their marketing department to push for more console titles and the money made off of it may be enough to obtain another license to toy around with. What, do you seriously think that if you believe hard enough that they'll read your mind when you buy the game and follow your desires and give the money to BIS? It isn't going to happen, kid.

Let's also take a look at when the game is scheduled to be released. After the Christmas season, just in time for a direct release into the bargain bin.

So, hopefully, it will also put a stop to Interplay/Titus' "method" of buying a license or acquiring one in another means, making a crappy, one-dimensional game off of it, and then moving to the next while floating off of the "profits" made from the sale of company assets. The ONLY time when they ever strive for anything other than mediocrity in setting design would be when they have a high profile license like Hunter or D&D, where it would really bite them in the legal ass if they skullfucked the setting. Take a look at their "original" console games recently versus the high profile licenses. There's a reason why Run Like Hell and its ilk didn't fare so well.

In addition, I doubt you have looked at the current financial state of Interplay, else I doubt you wouldn't have made such grotesquely stupid statements.

I really enjoyed IWD (and as I said to a lesser exent IWD2). Ok they were linear - but the graphics, gameplay, music and sound were all fantastic, particulary in the original. I also enjoyed the Fallout series...so what? Check

Many still play Diablo 2, which came out at the same time as Asswind Dale. Guess why? It's because nearly every game is the same in IWD while you can get together with friends easily in Diablo 2 and have fun tearing stuff up without the weak ass pretense of a story that IWD "possesses".

I didn't say Arcanum sucked. I finished it, but decided that its weaknesses (graphics, combat, dialog system - by which I mean everyone on the planet was rude to my half-orc but decided to acept him once I pointed out that they were being a little unfair, useless NPCS) did not match its strengths (non-linearity, large world). However some people like this kind of game more than others, just like I like IWD more than you. Check.

There's a reason why half-orcs aren't regarded too well, Spanky. Before you go into a twitch bitch again, you may want to look that up. In addition, you might also want to look up the definition of NPC as well, and please do not resort to the Sheriff Fuckwit "definition".