Review Accolades for HOTU at IGN

[Spazmo]

Tags: Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark

<a href=http://www.ign.com>IGN</a> have put up their <a href=http://pc.ign.com/articles/442/442594p1.html>review</a> of <a href=http://www.bioware.com>BioWare</a>'s <a href=http://nwn.bioware.com>Hordes of the Underdark</a>, the latest NWN expansion. HOTU scores <b>8.6 out of 10</b>.
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<blockquote>There's the usual assortment of D&D character classes to choose from as well as the prestige classes added in Shadows of Undrentide. In addition, Bioware has added six new prestige classes: Champion of Torm, Dwarven Defender, Pale Master, Red Dragon Disciple, Shifter and Weapon Master. These classes tend to favor fighter and spell-caster types, and round out the prestige class offerings from Undrentide quite nicely, allowing for something special for nearly every base class.
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Bioware didn't stop with a few new classes in the expansion. Hordes offers a lot more than your average expansion pack, like a slew of new character heads, portraits, spells, monsters, feats and skills. One of the most notable new skills is crafting, both for armor and weapons, and using materials such as mithril, iron, dyes and wood to create new items or to change the appearance of existing items. This means you can customize your look much more in Hordes of the Underdark, even after creating your character.</blockquote>
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Figures. The only new features that aren't fluff are the most poorly executed aspects of Third Edition D&D. Damn you, prestige classes and epic levels, damn you to hell! And besides that, Edmontonians don't eat <a href=http://www.cs.umanitoba.ca/~gedetil/poutine.shtml>poutine</a>. They're not cool enough.
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Spotted at <a href="http://www.bluesnews.com">Blues News</a>.

 

[Volourn]

I guess itemc reation, and multiple henchmen is now considered fluff at RPGCodex/ Weird...

 

[Spazmo]

I guess itemc reation, and multiple henchmen is now considered fluff at RPGCodex/ Weird...

Given how useless and stupid NWN henchmen are, yeah, it more or less is fluff. As for item creation, the half assed implementation they've tossed into HOTU is laughable. Bitch about ToEE's buggy item crafting all you want, but at least they tried.

 

[Volourn]

Half assed? Obviously you don't know what you are talking about. Rod, scroll, and potion creation works much like it does in TOEE except you actually have more control of what level of spell can be put in. I mena, at leats you aren't stuck with one magic missle per scroll... You can't create magical weapon and armour; but you can create nonmagical ones with the skills.

As for TOEE's itemc reation. Unlike you, I thought itemc reation was done fine other than the above complaint (other than the bugs). It was one of only two things done right in TOEE.

Trying is irrevant. Failure is fialure is fialure. Don't make exuses.

As for henchmen AI in NWN being poor. It may be; but it sure beats TOEE's. I'd take NWN henchmen AI over TOEE retarded one dimensional AI any day of the week, month, year, decade, century, or eon.

 

[suibhne]

As for henchmen AI in NWN being poor. It may be; but it sure beats TOEE's. I'd take NWN henchmen AI over TOEE retarded one dimensional AI any day of the week, month, year, decade, century, or eon.

Volourn, your knee-jerk responses are getting downright nonsensical. Did you even think about what you wrote?

ToEE's henchmen don't have AI; you control them yourself. Maybe you meant the scripting (both narrative and for levelling up), which, yeah, is mostly absent in ToEE (despite the original module containing backstory for Elmo and others) - but the henchmen stories in NWN are so lame that I'd be happy to lose them in exchange for putting the brakes on their utterly st00pid combat behavior.

 

[Volourn]

Umm.. You respoinse is nonsencial. I never mentioned TOEE henchmen AI. Not even once. I was referring to TOEE AI as a whole. perhaps you shoul reread what iw rote before coming to Spazmo's rescue 9who, btw, cna handle hismelf just fine with a comback to insult me; he needs no help ).

 

[Spazmo]

*blathering*

NWN's item crafting is half assed simply because you can only make potions, scrolls and rods. Why can't I make weapons and armour? And don't tell me I now have the ability to make my armour purple or red because I don't give a shit.

As for ToEE's AI, I'd say it way better than the godawful NWN AI. The henchmen in NWN were just atrocious and the monsters weren't much better. In both games, enemies have a fairly simple "attack the player" mentality, but ToEE is better because it doesn't have the pause and play horribleness.

 

[Volourn]

Pause n play has nothing to do with AI so you need abetter reason to explain why TOEE's AI is better.

As for the lack of other item creation feats being added; sure it be nice to have them; but it doesn't mean the ones actually implemented are half assed. I mean at least a 9th levelw izard cna make magic missle scrolls that cast 5 missile instead being stuck with making magic missle scrolls that a 1st level is capable of.

 

[Jed]

Umm.. You respoinse is nonsencial. I never mentioned TOEE henchmen AI. Not even once. I was referring to TOEE AI as a whole.

You should take a Writing for Clarity class or something then, because

As for henchmen AI in NWN being poor. It may be; but it sure beats TOEE's.

says nothing other than NWN Henchman AI>ToEE Henchman AI.

And just for good measure: Itemc reation? I A;M T3H; VOL;OUR;N!!!11

 

[Taoreich]

As for henchmen AI in NWN being poor. It may be; but it sure beats TOEE's.

says nothing other than NWN Henchman AI>ToEE Henchman AI.

True, but that's not what he said. The stated relationship was "henchman AI in NWN:TOEE retarded one dimensional AI

It's all fun and games untill someone starts mis-quoting out of context

 

[Spazmo]

Pause n play has nothing to do with AI so you need abetter reason to explain why TOEE's AI is better.

I'm not trying to say it's better--I don't feel like starting some long series of idiotic stories where you saw a bugbear do something silly. I'm saying that even if the AI is simplistic, ToEE's combat is better than NWN's because it's in proper TB.

That said, NWN's henchman AI is still completely worthless.

As for the lack of other item creation feats being added; sure it be nice to have them; but it doesn't mean the ones actually implemented are half assed. I mean at least a 9th levelw izard cna make magic missle scrolls that cast 5 missile instead being stuck with making magic missle scrolls that a 1st level is capable of.

Item creation is half assed because item creation means creating items. D&D provides rules for creating a variety of magic items. Basically, if it exists, you can make it (artifacts aside). In HOTU, however, only potions, scrolls and rods are creatable. That is half assed.

 

[Volourn]

Unlike some named X; at least Spamzo is coherrent and can discuss things, and he can also read too.

We'll just leave it at that Spazmo before the troll takes over the thread.

 

[triCritical]

Pause n play has nothing to do with AI so you need abetter reason to explain why TOEE's AI is better.

I haven't played either of the expansion packs, but ToEE's henchment and NPC's general have AI personality with alterior motives, and different fighting styles. NWN at OC had none of this. Hence ToEE AI is better, why? Because the AI does more, whether its buggy initially or not is irrelevant, because while one game encumbered their NPC's the other forgot to use their magic abilities.

 

[Jed]

It's all fun and games untill someone starts mis-quoting out of context

I'm not entirely convinced that it's out of context, considering Volourn's legendary lack of both coherence and consistency. At any rate, you'll hopefully forgive me if I can only bear to skim the V-Man's posts: they tend to give me a headache.

By the way, it's all fun and games regardless.

Unlike some named X; at least Spamzo is coherrent and can discuss things, and he can also read too.

More 3rd grade schoolyard smackdown--Volourn style! Until you can offer up an actual critique of ToEE's AI with more than one example of its alleged flaws and provide a few comparitve examples of why you think NWN's is better, I simply can't and won't stomach your T03333 IZ TA SUX0R CUZ NWNNNNN i5 t3h R0XXXXXXX0r!!11 LOL MOG!!1fanboi flamebait. Sorry, but this isn't the IPLY forums. Not yet at least.

And by examples, I mean ones that are based on reality, not your mysterious computer that's never experienced a bug with NWN but can only experience bugs with ToEE.

 

[suibhne]

Umm.. You respoinse is nonsencial. I never mentioned TOEE henchmen AI. Not even once. I was referring to TOEE AI as a whole. perhaps you shoul reread what iw rote before coming to Spazmo's rescue 9who, btw, cna handle hismelf just fine with a comback to insult me; he needs no help ).

Gotcha. I can now see that, although I hope you understand that discussing ToEE's entire bag o' AI vs. NWN's henchmen AI isn't strictly parallel, in a rhetorical sense.

Given that you've highly praised ToEE's combat, though, and that ToEE's AI is entirely enemy AI and exists only in combat, I'm still not sure how you can say that NWN's henchmen AI is better than ToEE's AI period. Otoh, I'm getting lost in acronyms and I think it's time to return to my whiskey sour.

 

[Jed]

Because the AI does more, whether its buggy initially or not is irrelevant, because while one game encumbered their NPC's the other forgot to use their magic abilities.

I'll never understand why Bioware stepped backwards on the AI. At least in the IE games you could tell your NPCs to auto-switch between ranged and melee depending on the situation. At the very least, you could write your own AI script and plug it into the game. Oh wait, I forgot: NWN's not a game, but a "good tool for making mediocre games." My bad.

 

[AlanC9]

I haven't played either of the expansion packs, but ToEE's henchment and NPC's general have AI personality with alterior motives, and different fighting styles. NWN at OC had none of this. Hence ToEE AI is better, why? Because the AI does more, whether its buggy initially or not is irrelevant, because while one game encumbered their NPC's the other forgot to use their magic abilities.

Huh? Your ToEE companions are completely under the player's control, and enemy NPCs don't have any special behaviors that NWN NPCs don't have. Bugbears use Trip, Bio NPCs use Knockdown if they have the feat. And Bio NPCs will use any magic abilities they have. In fact, the AI is too eager to use magic.

As for "alterior motives," I have no idea what you're talking about, except that you probably mean "ulterior."

But there is a grain of truth lurking here. The original NWN AI was the same for all creatures. There's one big DetermineCombatRound function that handles all NPC combat behavior. Not quite the way I would have set it up. At least they finally put the hooks in for custom behaviors.

Incidentally, saying that the the ToEE AI is "buggy initially" is misleading. The ToEE AI is going to be buggy forever.

 

[AlanC9]

I'll never understand why Bioware stepped backwards on the AI. At least in the IE games you could tell your NPCs to auto-switch between ranged and melee depending on the situation. At the very least, you could write your own AI script and plug it into the game.

And you can make your own AI scripts in NWN, of course. Though you have to modify everyone's AI at once unless you really pull the scripts apart.

Auto-switching ranged/melee weapons was in SoU at one point. It was pulled because it was buggy, apparently. A couple of the community AI packs have it back in and working fine..

 

[Volourn]

Subhime, no problem. Yes, I praise TOEE's combat overall because overall it is done well. Of course, some here liek to think its' perfect.

X, just to give you another to chance to throw lame cool speak words (which, btw, you seem to enjoy kewl speak more than anyone else I've seen); I ahve very much given clear cute xamples of both. I just not up to repeating my examples over and over again. The bugbear example is quite cleary the "poster boy" for TOEE's AI.

Tri, like Alan said, the npcs forgot their magic abilities? No, the problem is this use them way too often and way too early, if anything. And, like Alan said above 9again), what do you mean TOEE's AI does more? NWN monster AI (and henchmen AI for that matter) tend to use their special abilities ala knockdown, disamr, etc., etc. as often as they can. They will alsos witch off their current target to a more convient one instead of always rushing after one specific target through a bunch of AOOs.

You are right, howveer, that TOEE npcs do have ulterior motives. Of course, they seem so forced that I avoided them like the plague. Of course, I'll give this one to Toee henchmen as it's betetr for npcs to be their own person then just be paid mercenaries like in the OC was.

 

[Jed]

X, just to give you another to chance to throw lame cool speak words (which, btw, you seem to enjoy kewl speak more than anyone else I've seen);

At least mine is facetious.

I ahve very much given clear cute xamples of both. I just not up to repeating my examples over and over again. The bugbear example is quite cleary the "poster boy" for TOEE's AI.

Way to not step up, Volourn. The only example you've made is the Tripping Bugbear. That's quite a show stopper, isn't it?

Tri, like Alan said, the npcs forgot their magic abilities? No, the problem is this use them way too often and way too early, if anything.

I think what Tri meant is they use the best offensive spell when you're facing a group of three kobolds and then rush the next balor they see with their +6 Dagger of Weenies.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Trying is irrevant. Failure is fialure is fialure. Don't make exuses.

The only failure is not trying.

 

[Jed]

And you can make your own AI scripts in NWN, of course. Though you have to modify everyone's AI at once unless you really pull the scripts apart.

In true NWN style. ToEE may have bugs, but these kind of design flaws are really what hobble NWN from ever being a passable single-player RPG experience.

Auto-switching ranged/melee weapons was in SoU at one point. It was pulled because it was buggy, apparently. A couple of the community AI packs have it back in and working fine..

But Bioware said that the OC would be their best game EVAR! at the point when it came out. Why couldn't it do--out of the box--what was done well enough (considering the shitty combat engine) in BG1?

 

[Volourn]

X: 1. Is it? Nah. You use it eway too often for it to be.

2. I've given other examples as have others. I'm not going to repeat myself. The bug bear is just one fantastic example of something about the AI that was heraled as great AI pre-release; but is actually a weakness except in a few cases.

3. Yes, it annoyed me to no end that they would do that. No arguments there.

Saint: Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you can actually learn something worthfrom the endeavour; then gret; try away. Otehrwise, you are wasting your time.

 

[triCritical]

Huh? Your ToEE companions are completely under the player's control, and enemy NPCs don't have any special behaviors that NWN NPCs don't have.

How narrrominded. I am talking about what l00t they will want to collect. All three henchmnen have ulterior motives as to why they are traveling with you. Some will collect gold and others scrolls and its not quest based as Edwin's desire to collect something for one quest. Its constant, as if they have personality.

Bugbears use Trip, Bio NPCs use Knockdown if they have the feat

This is not what I am talking about. I am talking about aggressive NPC's, vs. defensive or support NPC's, vs. wait for the right moment NPC's. Each ToEE NPC was programmed with a particular combat style, again very innovative, even if most people did not notice it.

And Bio NPCs will use any magic abilities they have. In fact, the AI is too eager to use magic.

After the patch of course.

Incidentally, saying that the the ToEE AI is "buggy initially" is misleading. The ToEE AI is going to be buggy forever.

And your a source that knows for certain....

 

[triCritical]

And you can make your own AI scripts in NWN, of course. Though you have to modify everyone's AI at once unless you really pull the scripts apart.

Well then this is not AI, its closer to a well trained regiments not a AI tactical combatant that thinks on their own.