Review Accolades for HOTU at IGN

[triCritical]

NWN monster AI (and henchmen AI for that matter) tend to use their special abilities ala knockdown, disamr, etc., etc. as often as they can. They will alsos witch off their current target to a more convient one instead of always rushing after one specific target through a bunch of AOOs.

Just like him, your missed the point. Using special abilities is not EQUAL to AI. Knowing when to use them is AI. Having a particular kind of combat style and using it correctly is AI. Doing the same old thing over and over again just because you can is bad scripting and the worst kind of AI.

 

[Jed]

X: 1. Is it? Nah. You use it eway too often for it to be.

I don't know what "eway" means. Sorry. Maybe you should occasionally try to do more than just mash all over the keyboard randomly. It might help.

2. I've given other examples as have others. I'm not going to repeat myself. The bug bear is just one fantastic example of something about the AI that was heraled as great AI pre-release; but is actually a weakness except in a few cases.

Just give me three quick examples. Just three specific examples of how NWN does things better than ToEE. Do you even have that many examples?

3. Yes, it annoyed me to no end that they would do that. No arguments there.

My henchmen in ToEE don't do that. But NWN's AI is better? Can you explain away or dismiss the disconnect between this and your previous "arguments"?

 

[Volourn]

Tri, true, but they tend to do that for the most part. At least they don't go chasing down wizards through the entire party (most fo the time anwyays).

X,

1. Sure, I will, when you stop typing in kewlspeak so I can understand you as well. Deal?

2. I don't need to show anything to someone who just called me a liar. That's okay, maybe you'll learn.. doubtful; but maybe.

3. Your henchmen AI from what I've been told by people whoa ctually used them are controlled by the player in combat. Let's not to mention, the AI in TOEE is so brilliant that they'll grab eveyrthing on the ground even when they slow their movement down to nothing.

 

[Jed]

2. I don't need to show anything to someone who just called me a liar. That's okay, maybe you'll learn.. doubtful; but maybe.
3. Your henchmen AI from what I've been told by people whoa ctually used them are controlled by the player in combat. Let's not to mention, the AI in TOEE is so brilliant that they'll grab eveyrthing on the ground even when they slow their movement down to nothing.

As always, your "logic," as well as your inability to articulate it, never fails to astound.

 

[Spazmo]

*evading the question*

Right, I haven't called you a liar, and if I have, I most respectfully apologise. Now then, can we have some examples of weaknesses in ToEE's AI? I'm not even going to ask you for examples where NWN does it better. Just cite three things aside from the kamikaze mage-tripping bugbears (incidentally, since that tactic usually is quite effective for killing mages, I don't know that it's a weakness) in ToEE's AI that isn't terribly good.

 

[triCritical]

*evading the question*

Right, I haven't called you a liar, and if I have, I most respectfully apologise. Now then, can we have some examples of weaknesses in ToEE's AI? I'm not even going to ask you for examples where NWN does it better. Just cite three things aside from the kamikaze mage-tripping bugbears (incidentally, since that tactic usually is quite effective for killing mages, I don't know that it's a weakness) in ToEE's AI that isn't terribly good.

I don't think this is bad AI. Steve Moret said all along that there would be some enemies that were aggressive, and went after particular characters. How does this equate to bad AI?

 

[Transcendent One]

The bugbear tripping tactic is indeed quite effective. I believe they do it on rogues too.

 

[Volourn]

Spazmo, that comment was not directed at you.

Anyways, Tri how does it not equate bad ASI unless you think suicide = good AI.

Anyways, heck, I might as well give 3 examples (for the billionth time; and not simply just by me) foor poor AI in TOEE:

1. Bugbears who singlemindedly chase down mages (and according to GH, rogues too though I nver saw it personally) without regard to the fact they are opening up to AOO that will probably kill them.

2. Creatures who use misisle weapons that don't take 5' steps to avoid AOO (this even occurs in NWN; though it only is sometimes helpful due to the RT play).

3. Creatures who just stand there while you slaughter their friends, and won't attack at all unless you attack them first despite them being quite hostile twoards you.

Here's another one (that was supposedly fixed in the patch; but is as irrleavnt to the AI improvemnts in the two NWN expansions just o be fair):

4. Enemies attacking thinga that they *cannot* damage at all.


Three was so easy; I added a bonus one too.

 

[triCritical]

1. Bugbears who singlemindedly chase down mages (and according to GH, rogues too though I nver saw it personally) without regard to the fact they are opening up to AOO that will probably kill them.

This isn't poor AI its a bug, normally they avoid AoO's.

EDIT: The more I think of it the more I have seen creatures avoid AoO's.

Creatures who use misisle weapons that don't take 5' steps to avoid AOO (this even occurs in NWN; though it only is sometimes helpful due to the RT play).

Most creatures do take 5 foot steps to avoid AoO's. There is probably something in the AI that lets the creature believe it can get away with not taking a 5 foot step or it may be a bug. Brigands at the moathouse take a 5' step everytime under these circumstances.

3. Creatures who just stand there while you slaughter their friends, and won't attack at all unless you attack them first despite them being quite hostile twoards you.

Its a defensive posture, often seen by Neutral Evil character.

Bottomline is that they just because they don't behave the way you would DM them to behave does not mean they have poor AI. As a matter of fact some of the problems I have seen with the AI are bugs. But still I give them credit for pushing the envelope on combat AI for a tactical combat CRPG. The AI is the best AI I have seen in a DnD game.

4. Enemies attacking thinga that they *cannot* damage at all.

Its kind of hard where you distinquish the line between bad AI and an obvious bug.

EDIT: I thought about this for awhile and thought to myself, what else is the creature to do, I don't know, why don't you give the actual example and lets see if we can figure out if their is a better option for the AI figure out.

 

[Transcendent One]

Besides, some of those bugbears have like over 80 in HP. Even if each of Volourn's four (assuming the one bugbear is tripping can't make an AoO) characters got an AoO off and HIT, the bugbear still wouldn't die.

 

[Volourn]

1. How is this a bug? The bugbear's AI is scripting to go after wizards no matter what so he does. Not the poor fellow's fault. And, oh, they occasionally tumble pass the AOO; but usually not enough times. Talk about doing somehting that is completely stacked against you. Grey, true they may have 80hp; but they suaully don't start after the wizard untila few round sinto battle so normally my warriors have already done a great deal of damage so another hit, or two is enough to fall them when they make they're great run.

2. Yup. Some creatures do; some creatures don't. I can't recall the brigands speciifcally since it's beena while since I played so I'll take your word for it.

3. What exactly does alignment have to do with this? At best, you may are probably right and it's a simple bug. However, most situations with poor AI could be exused as a bug.
As for it being the best AI for a DnD game... Maybe I exaggerated how horirble it is overall; but the best? I think nyou are the one who is exaggerating now. It has some good instances of good AI; some intances of poor AI. - just like NWN. NWN creatures, for example, use their speical combat abilities to greater effect; but npc AI casters use their spells way too quicky (though; the PC has a way to curb that in HOTU- a nice addition in an otherwise meh expansion).

4. Simple. When a priest casts spiritual hammer; and the hammer constantly attacks no matter what depsite the obvious ineffectualness of it. What else can it do? Once it realizes it can't hurt it (2, or 3 wacks is a good number); make it look for another easier target that it can actually hurt.

 

[EEVIAC]

2. I've given other examples as have others. I'm not going to repeat myself. The bug bear is just one fantastic example of something about the AI that was heraled as great AI pre-release; but is actually a weakness except in a few cases.

I don't see why the Bugbear example of bad enemy AI is so good. Allow me to explain :

Picture yourself as a grunt in a Bugbear legion. You're approached by a band of adventurers, say two fighters, a bard, and a wizard, and engage in battle. Volly (the bugbear leader) has some tactical options at his disposal. He can rush in and try to take down one of the fighters, he can go for the Bard, attracting AoO for god-knows what reason (maybe the Bard is singing songs by Jet and needs to be killed instantly, a tactical decision I applaud.) Or he can go after the mage, no matter the consequences, because he's soon to get roasted with a fireball, incapacitated by THL, or some other near-insta-death trick. Not a whole lot of options there for poor Volly, but I'd say going after the mage, maybe tumbling past some of the adversaries, and perhaps executing a successfull takedown is the best of them.

If you have a better solution to this dilemna I'd like to hear it (seriously, I'm not being sarcastic or antagonisitic.)

<edit> Looks like I've entered this discusion a little late but I'd still like to hear an AI alternate Volourn. One bad AI example I can think of is the Troll near the Troll King (?) - he's a doorway away and if you attack the Troll, the King does nothing. Its not a problem just with NWN or ToEE though, its always irritated me that RPG characters, even low intelligence ones don't even have basic fight/flee AI. I always liked picking off running Raiders with a good rifle. Made me feel like a man. :D

 

[Volourn]

Nope; and you made a good point of a situation where taking such a risk would be warranted. However, bugbears will go straight for the wizard if you just having him fire ineffectual arrow shots into melee which will probably miss while he ignores the hulking barbarian who is slicing and dicing him; or ignoring the priets who has been casting hold spells on his lessers. I mean, the barabian standing less than 5' away can't hurt you with his weapon if he's on the ground crying about having to get back up and face your AOO. That's all I'm saying. Your example is one of the few exceptions I was referring to wher eit makes sense the bugbear would perform this mad dash.

P.S. Volly? LOL usually only posters of the female perusuasion use that when addressing me. Hehe. :wink:

 

[triCritical]

1. How is this a bug? The bugbear's AI is scripting to go after wizards no matter what so he does. Not the poor fellow's fault. And, oh, they occasionally tumble pass the AOO; but usually not enough times. Talk about doing somehting that is completely stacked against you. Grey, true they may have 80hp; but they suaully don't start after the wizard untila few round sinto battle so normally my warriors have already done a great deal of damage so another hit, or two is enough to fall them when they make they're great run.

NOTE: I have fought the bugbears in the moathouse around 4 times, and I have never been left with the lasting impression that the all target my wizard, or take unecessary AI's.

Now: If I was writing the code, it is not illogical to give groups an order in who to attack first. Furthermore, the most rudimentory pathfinding algorithm will show that pathfinding is dictated by cost function. Perhaps in some circumstances it is more beneficial for an aggressive bugbear to take an AoO, hell I know I do sometimes.

Again its revolves around what you egocentrically believe how a character should act. This does not mean bad AI. The different enemies in ToEE have shown various tactical methods, which IMO is revolutionary for a CRPG.

2. Yup. Some creatures do; some creatures don't. I can't recall the brigands speciifcally since it's beena while since I played so I'll take your word for it.

So you proved yourself wrong. The very fact that character behave differently, in itself is an improvement over an DnD enemy AI I have ever seen. In BG and NWN both I have found that whether you were an orc or fighter, you behave the same. The only difference was the stats, equipment and the avatar.

. What exactly does alignment have to do with this? At best, you may are probably right and it's a simple bug. However, most situations with poor AI could be exused as a bug.

What does alignment have to do with it? I though you were a DM??? Neutral Evil character tend to look after themselves not giving a rats ass if their comrades die....

Furthemore I never said a defensive posture as a bug. The only real flaw in the AI IMO is that the enemies morale is always through the roof. But there is nothing wrong with a defensive posture, epeically with egocentric characters that care only about themselves.

As for it being the best AI for a DnD game... Maybe I exaggerated how horirble it is overall; but the best? I think nyou are the one who is exaggerating now. It has some good instances of good AI; some intances of poor AI. - just like NWN. NWN creatures, for example, use their speical combat abilities to greater effect; but npc AI casters use their spells way too quicky (though; the PC has a way to curb that in HOTU- a nice addition in an otherwise meh expansion).

It certainly is the best, and if not for games made by Sir Tech and other games like Gothic, it would be best among CRPG's. CRPG's are notorious for terrible AI, and while its only recently that people have attempted to do more with AI, and I would like to see more people expand on some of the ideas introduced by Troika in ToEE.

4. Simple. When a priest casts spiritual hammer; and the hammer constantly attacks no matter what depsite the obvious ineffectualness of it. What else can it do? Once it realizes it can't hurt it (2, or 3 wacks is a good number); make it look for another easier target that it can actually hurt.

Bad programming...

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

1. Bugbears who singlemindedly chase down mages (and according to GH, rogues too though I nver saw it personally) without regard to the fact they are opening up to AOO that will probably kill them.

They tend to go after what's doing the most damage as far as I can tell. So, they tend to go after my fighters rather than my wizards because of the way I use them.

2. Creatures who use misisle weapons that don't take 5' steps to avoid AOO (this even occurs in NWN; though it only is sometimes helpful due to the RT play).

I've never seen a human NOT try the 5' step. Bugbears do it often as well.

3. Creatures who just stand there while you slaughter their friends, and won't attack at all unless you attack them first despite them being quite hostile twoards you.

Well, this is a problem with line of sight and sight distance, and I can't name a CRPG where this doesn't happen. It happens in KotOR quite a bit.

Here's another one (that was supposedly fixed in the patch; but is as irrleavnt to the AI improvemnts in the two NWN expansions just o be fair):

4. Enemies attacking thinga that they *cannot* damage at all.

I rather miss this one, since it allowed for baiting of creatures. It beats the hell out of AIs that just go hard and heavy for the player.

 

[suibhne]

The 5' step thing (or lack thereof, among your enemigos) and the Spiritual Weapon problem were both acknowledged as bugs - and fixed (mostly) by the patch. I've found that to be true in my own experience; playing a post-patch game, Spiritual Weapon is no longer quite so cheesy and the baddies frequently take 5' steps.

 

[Sheriff05]

HotU is a fucking joke, the few useful additions, like the character customization options
are far outweighed by the lame facts that new crappy OC is single player only (way to go, guys) and all the new tilesets combined add up to the size of ONE of the original tilesets. There is ZERO support for builders in terms of adding new content and the promises of REAL content updates made pre-original release are long forgotten.
They keep changing the 2da files so it's a fucking nightmare to update if you want any use out of this game other playing their shitty OC's or running around hacked PW's with 11 year olds
This is a total P.O.S made for most causal lowbrow D&D newbies.
They actually *are* making game design decisions based on POLLS done by idiots who hang on on there stupid message board (80% that seem to 16 or younger)
After 5 years in development, Bioware has decided in a year in half to turn the original excellent premise of NWN into a friggin diablo-esque console game from morons
*whoo* epic levels, *whoo* Drow, *whoo* stupid prestige classes, *whoo* steel plated robes, (yes- you read that right STEEL PLATED ROBES)
Fuck you Bioware, die, die die

Ok, now that I got that out of way

Volourn STOP using ToEE as your ammo for defending HotU!!
It is complete bullshit, ToEE for all its faults at the very least makes an attempt to follow the damn rules!

Ok, once again for emphasis, FUCK YOU BIOWARE..

EDIT: typos

 

[Volourn]

Ranting doesn't make you know what you are talking about. While HOTU isn't that grea (in fact, I'm pretty dissapointed in it espicially after KOTO)t; almost all your complaints levied at it are quite frankly moronic.

And, as far as TOEE goes; the only thing it does better than NWN are a more accurate protrayal of the DnD rulkes. If anything, TOEE proves that simply isn't enough when it's bug laden, a joke of a story (not that HOTU's is any better thus far though its npcs are easily better), and quite franly too easy to boot.

Sherriff, weren't you whining that single player crpgs were the way to go on the TOEE boards? So, BIO made HOTU sp as they know that the majority of NWN's purchasers want sp first, and mp is secondary. That's what they did.

There's an obvious intelligent reason why the 2da files upgraded,a nd you should know since you think you are so "smart". There is lots of new support for builders in HOTU. Just read the boards. Most of the builders are quite happy with their new toys. Beside,s you aren't really a fan of NWN, and I presume you didn't even buy HOTU so how do you know anything about this stuff? Hmm...

Anyways, keep ranting, it's very amusing. :D

 

[Jed]

Ranting doesn't make you know what you are talking about. While HOTU isn't that grea (in fact, I'm pretty dissapointed in it espicially after KOTO)t; almost all your complaints levied at it are quite frankly moronic.

He sounds like he knows what he's talking about to me. If you would ever take down your fanboi filters every once in a while, you would see that what fuels so much of the anger directed at Bioware/NWN is all the broken fucking promises.

(not that HOTU's is any better thus far though its npcs are easily better)

You've stated several times that you never picked up any joinable NPCs in ToEE, so how can you make this comparison?

Sherriff, weren't you whining that single player crpgs were the way to go on the TOEE boards? So, BIO made HOTU sp as they know that the majority of NWN's purchasers want sp first, and mp is secondary. That's what they did.

I think he's pointing out the obvious mistake Bioware made in cutting out the only part of NWN that even approaches being wortwhile: playing an on-line hack-fest with your buddies.

 

[Volourn]

Maybe if you read my post; you'd realzie I'm no way in hell giving HOTU a glwoing review so how exactly am I looking at it with colour coded glasses.

By reading what people have stated about them. It's quite clear that joinable npcs were mostly an after thought with very few having any depth at all outside of the occasional obligatory betrayal that one can see a mile away. You, yourself, I'm sure thinks HOTU sucks yet I doubt you've played it. Hmm..

And, as I said, most people who buy BIO games inclduing NWN and its expansions do so to play it by themselves. So, should BIO ignore those 75% or so for the minority? Hmm... Besides, it's not like multi player is ignored. And, as BIO has stated on this issue, the reason why the HOTU OC was so sp oriented is because the story is about the mainc haracter. the story (even though I don't care for the story that much anyways) just wouldn't work in mper; and BIO felt it was more important to concentrate on the sp aspect than try to accomadate for mp like they did for previous NWN OCs. Simple reasoning, huh?

Now, let's fac eit, you don't like NWN at all which is all find and dandy so who are you tod etemrine what most NWN fans find worthwhile for/ It's obviously the most (even if they are suppsoedly morons) voted for, and that's BIO to concentrate ona good sp campaign (though I don't HOTU really is as good ias some is making it out to be; but oh well).

To each their own, and have fun. :D

 

[Jed]

You, yourself, I'm sure thinks HOTU sucks yet I doubt you've played it. Hmm..

How could've I? It just came out. From your various unique takes on ToEE, one is forced to wonder if you've played that game.

 

[Volourn]

You should check out the efinition for unique. My "take" on TOEE isn't unique. And, hey, I wasn't all that negative about TOEE other than the silly module chosen to base the game on until i played. Heck, I thought it would be better than NWN pre release; but sadly I was mistaken. oh well, at leats I have Arcanum to remind me of Troika's glory days.

 

[Sheriff05]

Volourn,

first off, I don't whine , I rant...
Don't lecture me about the toolset, I mastered the damn thing intially and know what I am talking about...2da updates while not difficult (once you know how) but are a bitch to have to constantly update them when you have other hacks..Bioware hasn't done jack shit as far as supporting bulders, every program, 2da editor and the ilk I have are 3rd party, They brush off the best part of their mediocre game in favor of horseshit like nerfed epic level feats and the like... I know you can come up with something better than calling me "moronic" , please

Remember I supported NWN for along time as an avid builder and DM at NWC
I finally got fed up with the continuous nose-dive of the entire franchise and the almost complete reversal of the games original vision..fuck those money grubbing whores-
fuck Bioware!!
whoo-hoo..I love a good rant on a friday afternoon!

I have to add it's odd, that you feel the core focus of NWN is SP??
you know damn well the game was never meant to be SP, that was a year 4 design decision, and it is now the *focus* of the game??, it's pathetic
"ok we'll give you an extra henchman but that means NO multiplayer for the OC", it's total shit

 

[Volourn]

I never said it was the focus of the design. I said, it's the focus of the players who buy the game. You know, BIO's customers, the ones who pay their bills, who buy their games first and foremost for sp play.

As for the 2da thing; I have heard very few complaints from bulders about it so it really cna't be a big deal for those whoa ctually are still building.

So, I see, you are so upset that BIO "betrayed" you and is now focusing more on what the MAJORITY of their consumers wnat; and now the MINORITY? My god. BIO should hire you to write up their business plan. It's not like BIO is ignoring the on-line community. In fact, all I've heard mostly from those who actually mod the game still is about all the new things they can do with the new inner workings. Oh well, you can't please everybody.

Everyone knows that some of the major weaknesses in the NWN OC is BECAUSE it was geared towards multiplayer.. BIO has simply addressed that issue. Really simple.

 

[Sheriff05]

I never said it was the focus of the design. I said, it's the focus of the players who buy the game.

Well maybe that's the problem, I agree the majority of the problems with NWN arose from it's *cough* audience
Unfortunately more people who actually wanted an online *real* D&D game, didn't really like the compromises Bioware made at the 11th hour on NWN
so the game lost as much as it gained during the initial release in terms of a core fan base.

As for the 2da thing; I have heard very few complaints from bulders about it so it really cna't be a big deal for those whoa ctually are still building.

nah, that's BS, believe me any builder with a bunch of good haks, HATES the new 2da
everytime a expansion comes, it was a nightmare with SoU, since I know how to do it
would now only be aggravating, ( meticulous and time consuming) but fortunately for me I ceased giving a shit. The point is Bioware has done nothing to address this for those that do care, NO Bioware produced editor (like combine 2da) NO frickin support
other that wait for next patch and if you want to use 3rd party haks, you need to do it YOURSELF, even thou SUPPOSEDLY the toolset is core part of our game we claimed we would support.

So, I see, you are so upset that BIO "betrayed" you and is now focusing more on what the MAJORITY of their consumers wnat; and now the MINORITY? My god. BIO should hire you to write up their business plan. It's not like BIO is ignoring the on-line community. In fact, all I've heard mostly from those who actually mod the game still is about all the new things they can do with the new inner workings. Oh well, you can't please everybody.

I wouldn't call it a betrayal, I hardly care, I just like to bitch about it
it's more like they have ZERO integrity, and are completely full of shit.
just like most companies that start small and make a few bucks
THEY SELL OUT.
Yes, They would have done well to have hired me to write their business plan or better yet supervise their product development, unfortunately I am not available
plus you'd couldn't get my corpse to live in Edmonton.

Everyone knows that some of the major weaknesses in the NWN OC is BECAUSE it was geared towards multiplayer.. BIO has simply addressed that issue. Really simple.

Knock, knock???? hello??
The fucking game was designed from day one to be MULTLPLAYER!!!
It's source code is designed for mulitplayer
the OC was broke because they decided to coddle the whinning of Baldur's Gate II fans
and include single-player instead of sticking to the god damn premise of the game!!
(Theory)
I don't know *that* much about code but I can bet you anything that the reason that the HotU OC doesn't have MP is that in order to have TWO henchman they tricked the game into thinking that you'r playing a mulitplayer game with 2 people and one henchman
the second henchman is probably in the first MP slot, and you can add any more humans as the code thinks that spot is already filled.
They are just lazy and didn't want to do it right as they did a poll and 50 losers said
"we just want single player", so the TWO people working on HotU said
"fuck it"
Since they don't care , why should I??