Review Edward R Murrow's Dissertation on Fallout 3

[DarkUnderlord]

Tags: Bethesda Softworks; Fallout 3

Greetings, gentle readers. Fallout 3 has no doubt, been the most highly anticipated game here at the Codex in a long-time. Fallout - that classic RPG we all hold dear - done by Bethesda - that not-so good RPG developer. What would the outcome be? Esteemed critic and world-renowned philosopher, Edward R Murrow, has taken a break from his busy schedule and provided you, gentle reader, with the opportunity to peruse his thoughts of Fallout 3 in "<a href="http://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=178">Edward R Murrow's Critical Dissertation on Fallout 3: Islands of Good Awash in a Sea of Mediocre, Time-Wasting Drivel</a>". Here is but a sampling for you to digest:
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<blockquote>From here though, it just got worse. Most other quests devolved into dungeon crawls. Take the "Stealing Independence" quest. Go into the National Archives and grab the Declaration of Independence. Seems like it should be fun enough, and offer some cool science and stealth options. Nope. Go through a bunch of DC metro tunnels while killing raiders and ghouls, then fight through 2 floors of mutants, and a floor of robots to be able to use a speech check to get out of a fight with a low level robot with a little personality. Wonderful. And the idiocy keeps going like this, where quests devolve into boring monster hacks with a usually useless speech check at the end. They have all this potential, and then throw it away on dungeon crawling nonsense. They even brought back an Oblivion fan favorite quest, except instead of collecting X amounts of Magic Wine you collect X amount of Nuka Cola Quantum. Obviously this quest is not an artificial time lengthener that exists just to drop you in more dungeons. Even worse, quests have almost no consequences. Even blowing up Megaton doesn't close out the big quests there, as the quest giver conveniently becomes a ghoul and still offers the quest to you from a different location. Working with Paradise Falls didn't seem to stop me from helping some escaped slaves in another quest, and I bet it would likely be the same vice versa, even though Three Dog is blasting everything you do across the Wasteland. Karma is the only consequence of quests and is pretty much useless except for the companions who cast Detect Good/Evil on you. Both good and evil characters get mercenaries on their tail, and I found trying to play a neutral character near impossible, as contrary to what Todd said, there are no rewards for neutral characters. Plus karma is pretty broken seeing as your robot butler can essentially give you infinite pure water to give to beggars for Karma ++ and you can always donate caps to churches for Karma ++ because it's not like Fallout ever had some sort of key anti-establishment tone in it or this is some tired RPG cliche that needs to be put to bed. And evil unspeakable is only stealing a whole house full of crap away, or perhaps killing some generic Megaton citizens who will respawn in the two days it takes to forget your crimes. So essentially, they neutered the only real consequences in their game.
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The main quest is rubbish, pure and simple. Most every quest devolves into killing, and the only virtue of it is that you can skip most of it. It suffers also from another flaw of Oblivion, the player character is not the main character. Just like in Oblivion, how Martin was the true "protagonist" and you were more a glorified errand boy, you basically play this same role to daddy Liam and his pet project. Now, it's not being a “Chosen One” who must stop the ancient evil, which could be seen as a progress of sorts. Unfortunately, it's a case of being thrown out of the frying pan into the fire as you are the Chosen One's sidekick, who fights the mildly venerable evil. Also like Oblivion, it ends with you watching a big thing fight other big things instead of doing some ass kicking yourself. If I'm going to play a game riddled with combat, at least let me feel badass about it instead of cock-blocking me. Even in Bloodlines, when it devolved into a hackfest, my character was killing tons of stuff and wrecking house. I get to demolish the big players who had previously pushed me around, if I so chose to, not watch Smiling Jack fight them in his Mecha Battle Sarcophagus. But to make the climax something the player watches rather than participates in? What the hell, this isn't a jRPG you twats. Oh, and the ending is pure idiocy and to add insult to injury, they didn't even bring back the ending slides. Over 200 permutations my ass. It's more like one based on karma, one based on one choice at the very end, and one based on another choice at the very end.</blockquote>
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We at the Codex intend to ensure our coverage of Fallout 3 is comprehensive enough to give every angle and the wide-range of opinions there no doubt will be on this beginning, to what is intended to be the re-birth of a long-running franchise.

 

[dagorkan]

Thank you, good sir, a highly interesting piece. One (yours truly) shall certainly look into the matter at hand and mayhap share my own speculations.

 

[Zhirzzh]

Smiling Jack fight them in his Mecha Battle Sarcophagus

This would make Bloodlines a worse game?

 

[Murk]

a bit of a long read with some weird repetitive sentences, but overall very informative

7.5-8/10, would read again

 

[Volourn]

You were too polite. I'd have written 'FO3 sucks' over, and over again for the minimum required.

Solid review. :evil:

 

[jiujitsu]

Mecha Battle Sarcophagus should have been one of the alternate endings in Bloodlines.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Let me punch in a few holes (part of our exciting "arguing for the sake of arguing!" program):

Overall, it's too negative and filled with mistakes and false assumptions, which creates an assumption that the goal of the review was not to provide an analysis or a detailed opinion, but to tear FO3 a new one. A noble goal, I agree, but I expected a better style from an "esteemed critic and world-renowned philosopher", whom I personally respect.

Fallout 3 basically plays much like a post-apocalyptic Oblivion with guns and a few tweaks, despite what some might say. Bethesda did not stray far from their formula...
...
Skill and stat checks exist in dialogue and come out in force.
...
...many of the advancements Bethesda made in the role-playing department.

So, uh, is it Oblivion with guns or not? Did Bethesda improve the formula by bringing in loads of skill checks and greatly improving quest design (from uber linear "kill it/fetch it" to multi-side, multi-option, multi-color design)?

Most skill checks are "gimme more money" speech checks, there were scant few other checks.

There are plenty of other speech checks. You can convince Moira to abandon her stupid book idea, you can lie to her and feed her a bunch of bullshit, you can convince Burke to leave, you can convince a lot of people to tell you what you need to know or do something for you without doing anything for them, etc.

...building the radically useless schematic weaponry

Incorrect.

Working with Paradise Falls didn't seem to stop me from helping some escaped slaves in another quest...

How many games would actually handle this differently? Are we comparing Fallout 3 to imaginary standards or actual games?

It suffers also from another flaw of Oblivion, the player character is not the main character. Just like in Oblivion, how Martin was the true "protagonist" and you were more a glorified errand boy, you basically play this same role to daddy Liam and his pet project.

Only daddy Liam dies shortly after you find him.

Even in Bloodlines, when it devolved into a hackfest, my character was killing tons of stuff and wrecking house. I get to demolish the big players who had previously pushed me around, if I so chose to, not watch Smiling Jack fight them in his Mecha Battle Sarcophagus.

Hardly an argument. Correction: sounds like an ESF argument.

Intelligence: 40 additional skill points...

Obviously Intelligence is leaps and bounds the best here, because it gives you a massive pool of skill points to work with, and skill points are what matter in Fallout 3. And this is where the character system really breaks down. Maxing intelligence allows you to gain a huge amount of skill points easily.

40 additional skillpoints? Massive pool? Huge amount? Want to check your math?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sorry, kid. The wasteland life is tough.

 

[Trash]

Don't we all?

 

[dagorkan]

Vault Dweller, sekrit Bethesda agent infiltratign our Kodexes.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It is what it is. A good, but flawed game. Greatly improved comparing to MW and OB.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Vault Dweller, sekrit Bethesda agent infiltratign our Kodexes.

I bet he already got the position of mod on TES forums.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Do you really think I would sell out for a mod position? Don't make me laugh. They've offered me a GLOBAL mod position. That's right, bitches, you are looking at the new global mod. POWAH overwhelming!!!

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Let me punch in a few holes (part of our exciting "arguing for the sake of arguing!" program):

Sounds fun.

but I expected a better style from an "esteemed critic and world-renowned philosopher"

I would have prefered resident pseudo-intellectual goofball but that's beside the point....

whom I personally respect.

:decline of VD's personal standards:

There are plenty of other speech checks. You can convince Moira to abandon her stupid book idea, you can lie to her and feed her a bunch of bullshit, you can convince Burke to leave, you can convince a lot of people to tell you what you need to know or do something for you without doing anything for them, etc.

Uh....you can convince Burke to leave without being a woman with the Black Widow perk? Guess I missed that. And the lies didn't seem to have speech checks associated with them when talking to Moira.

But away from that. The point still stands that the majority of speech checks are "gimme more money". I chose (and succeeded on all but one, the one to skip Three Dog's quest) every speech option that came my way, and ended with only 51 speech successes according to the tally in the Pip-Boy, and I distinctly remember most of the side-quests having at least one, if not two options of "I want a better reward" or some such. Take into account the fact that there are about 20 side-quests, and it does seem like "useful" speech checks are in the minority. And it seems like wherever there is a big speech check to do something important, there's always 5 other options split between other skill, stat or perk choices, devaluing speeches importance in those events.

Incorrect.

You sure about that? Schematic weaponry just doesn't seem so great.

The Railway Rifle seems pretty useless as it's a slightly stronger hunting rifle, except that it doesn't gain the benefit of being easily repaired/resupplied while fighting many gun-toting enemies. And I even think railway spikes may have had weight too. I could be wrong on this though.

The Rock-It Launcher determines all it's damage based on how much the junk you fire weighs....which is more than a little weak in Fallout 3, seeing as all other guns have weightless ammunition and you're swimming in enough of it that the Rock-It Launcher's usefulness is diminished, at least in my eyes.

The Nuka-Grenade might be good....it's just to get the schematic you have to give up 30 of the semi-rare ingredient that it's based around, leaving you very little left to toy with, unless of course you're a die-hard dungeon freak who will explore every area and go over them with a fine-tooth comb. And even then, is it that much better than the sea of plasma grenades I was getting from the Enclave patrols that were out in force by the time I'd finished "The Nuka Cola Challenge"?

The bottlecap mine might have been good in design, but as I mentioned in the review, I could never get mines to work properly as enemies would step over them, but not set them off.

The shishkebab was the one I was unsure about though. I never really got around to making one, nor playing with melee weapons. So it could have been good.

Still, are any of these worlds better than the nice weaponry you can have by the time you've completed the mid-level quests to get the schematics?

How many games would actually handle this differently? Are we comparing Fallout 3 to imaginary standards or actual games?

Fallout 2 in a way, though moreso because slavers had the "brilliant" idea of tattooing their faces for everyone to see. Games have had mutually exclusive quest lines before, and just because the majority don't, doesn't mean we shouldn't hold Fallout 3 to higher standards, especially when Fallout was one of the series that did it before.

Ninja Edit: And it was less the situation and more how it illustrated the total lack of consequence in Fallout 3 quests.

Only daddy Liam dies shortly after you find him.

But you still are railroaded into giving a damn about Project Purity no matter what, hence why I said the main quest was more about him and his project than the player's choices.

Hardly an argument. Correction: sounds like an ESF argument.

What's wrong with that? Is it wrong to want my player character to be the center of the action if he can't be the center of the story/decision making? I mean, most shooters railroad you and give you no say in the story, but they do let you do all the big important things and feel like the focus of the story. Fallout 3's main quest doesn't let you have a say in the direction of the story, nor does it let you be the action, just an errand boy. Imagine if Half-Life was Freeman going around Black Mesa, fetching stuff for the G-Man's alien-buster machine, in alien controlled labs and when the player got all the parts, he got to watch a scripted sequence of the G-Man whooping everything in Xen's ass. That basically is the Oblivion/Fallout 3 formula, except the writing is slightly more coherent.

40 additional skillpoints? Massive pool? Huge amount? Want to check your math?

Yeah, my math's off. It should be 38 additional skillpoints for each point of intelligence. Each INT point gives you two skillpoints per level up, and you have 19 level ups where you get skill points. I forgot to think in terms of level ups instead of levels, or had Fallout 1's level cap in my head. And I also assumed everyone would hit level 20, because the game is saturated with experience opportunities.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Working with Paradise Falls didn't seem to stop me from helping some escaped slaves in another quest...

How many games would actually handle this differently? Are we comparing Fallout 3 to imaginary standards or actual games?

I don't see this as a problem either. It's not like the kid who gives the quest would know your character is working with Paradise Falls. It's also not like your character can't change his mind about Paradise Falls given the circumstances of the quest. It makes fairly decent sense to me that the game would have it that way.

Of course, it would be nice if you could go to Paradise Falls and get those guys to handle the kids for you.

 

[Vault Dweller]

But away from that. The point still stands that the majority of speech checks are "gimme more money". I chose (and succeeded on all but one, the one to skip Three Dog's quest) every speech option that came my way, and ended with only 51 speech successes according to the tally in the Pip-Boy, and I distinctly remember most of the side-quests having at least one, if not two options of "I want a better reward" or some such. Take into account the fact that there are about 20 side-quests...

Basic math suggests that there are 20 "moar money!" checks and 31 "other stuff" checks.

The Railway Rifle seems pretty useless...

It's fucking awesome. I used it until I ran out of spikes. One of the top 5 weapons, I think.

And I even think railway spikes may have had weight too.

Nope. Weightless too.

The shishkebab was the one I was unsure about though. I never really got around to making one, nor playing with melee weapons. So it could have been good.

Looked very decent to me.

...doesn't mean we shouldn't hold Fallout 3 to higher standards, especially when Fallout was one of the series that did it before.

It's an action game. Comparing it to Fallout is as silly as comparing Bloodlines to Arcanum.

But you still are railroaded into giving a damn about Project Purity no matter what, hence why I said the main quest was more about him and his project than the player's choices.

Are you not railroaded in 99% of main quests? In the unpatched Fallout you are railroaded into giving a damn about the water problem or the game is over in 150 days. In FO2 you simply must give a damn about stopping the Enclave if you want to beat the game. And so on, and so on...

What's wrong with that? Is it wrong to want my player character to be the center of the action if he can't be the center of the story/decision making?

It's wrong to criticize a game for not fulfilling this wish. In fact, it's kind of nice that you are not the ultimate bringer of doom and death.

Imagine if Half-Life was Freeman going around Black Mesa, fetching stuff for the G-Man's alien-buster machine, in alien controlled labs and when the player got all the parts, he got to watch a scripted sequence of the G-Man whooping everything in Xen's ass.

Doesn't upset my delicate sensibilities.

Yeah, my math's off. It should be 38 additional skillpoints for each point of intelligence. Each INT point gives you two skillpoints per level up...

... in Fallout 1. It's only a point in Fallout 3. So, you only get 19 points per stat point.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Wait... Vault Dweller's defending a Bethesda game? NOW IS THE TIME FOR IT HAS COME FULL CIRCLE.

...doesn't mean we shouldn't hold Fallout 3 to higher standards, especially when Fallout was one of the series that did it before.

It's an action game. Comparing it to Fallout is as silly as comparing Bloodlines to Arcanum.

What? Compare Fallout 3 to Fallout 1 and 2? How dare you Edward!

 

[Temoid]

Even as a standalone non-fallout game, fallout 3 does not even reach the decent-mark. Have we played the same game?

 

[Dabrinko]

The Railway rifle is hard as fuck to aim with in realtime, but in VATS, sheesh, it's a killing machine.

 

[DefJam101]

I'm not sure if Vault Dweller is a first-person shooter person. I played F3 earlier at my friend's, it was extremely easy* in a very bad way. Point n' click n' strafe combat gets old fast if you can aim worth a damn. Not sure I could extract any enjoyment from the combat in this game if I played it in my house with my l33t hardware, $70 mouse, and uber grafix card. At least until some difficulty mods come out. I wasn't impressed by anything else, although I only played for 20-30 minutes.

* It was on 'very hard' difficulty.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What? Compare Fallout 3 to Fallout 1 and 2? How dare you Edward!

Well, you wouldn't compare XCOM: Enforcer to XCOM, would you?

I'm not sure if Vault Dweller is a first-person shooter person.

I am. It really seems that there is a glitch in the level scaling. Some people I talked to had the same experience as I did. Tough combat, must use stimpaks often, you die a lot and often. Other people's experience was the opposite. Super easy. No need to use stimpaks at all. Can kill everything with a toothpick. The difference can't be explained with "oh well, some people suck at shooters, I suppose".

... although I only played for 20-30 minutes.

That may explain it. Vault 101 is super easy. You can kill everyone without any skills at all. Megaton and surrounding areas are a bit tougher, but still easy. Then it gets harder. Much harder.

 

[DefJam101]

I'm not sure if Vault Dweller is a first-person shooter person.

I am. It really seems that there is a glitch in the level scaling. Some people I talked to had the same experience as I did. Tough combat, must use stimpaks often, you die a lot and often. Other people's experience was the opposite. Super easy. No need to use stimpaks at all. Can kill everything with a toothpick. The difference can't be explained with "oh well, some people suck at shooters, I suppose".

All you need is an ego, baby. :wink:

 

[Xi]

Beauty can only be expressed in so many ways. Thank you kind sir. We've only uncovered a few real in-depth literary interpretations of what FO3 actually is. So to all those that go above and beyond, for no good reason I may add, this is a god send to the community. For that I wish all of you reviewers, aka people who work hard for the common gamer - acruing only cost to yourselves, god send. Obviously, I'm not actully an important community figure, so this means little, but seriously, good work guys! This stuff is golden, mented from the finest of metals and created from only the deepest of transcendent thought available.

We could not make the correct purchasing decisions without you. Cheers, Salute, Input something favorable here, awesome!

 

[DarkUnderlord]

What? Compare Fallout 3 to Fallout 1 and 2? How dare you Edward!

Well, you wouldn't compare XCOM: Enforcer to XCOM, would you?

That sounds like an ESF argument. If it was called X-Com 3, had building-base aspects, research and pretty much all the other "X-Comy" parts and was sold as a sequel to the same series and not a spin-off, I certainly would. In other words, I'd compare X-Com: Apocalypse to X-Com: UFO or X-COM: TFTD. Now I certainly wouldn't compare Fallout: Tactics to Fallout 1 and 2.

Even if you take that into account though, Edward's talking about the role-playing aspects (consequences for one's choice of actions) which would make sense they get compared to other RPGs. Especially other RPGs in the same series.

 

[Xerxos]

I'm not sure if Vault Dweller is a first-person shooter person.

I am. It really seems that there is a glitch in the level scaling. Some people I talked to had the same experience as I did. Tough combat, must use stimpaks often, you die a lot and often. Other people's experience was the opposite. Super easy. No need to use stimpaks at all. Can kill everything with a toothpick. The difference can't be explained with "oh well, some people suck at shooters, I suppose".

Well, that's easily explained: if you wander around a lot in the early game, the game gets set to that level range, even if you come back later with more XP under your belt.

Add to this their decision to give more XP at harder difficult settings,a mostly unbalanced weapon system and perks with VASTLY different usability and you get fluctuating difficulty.