Review GCM approves of HotU

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark

<a href=http://www.gamechronicles.com>Game Chronicles</a> posted this <a href=http://www.gamechronicles.com/reviews/pc/nwnexp2/hotu.htm>in-depth review</a> of <a href=http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark>HotU</a> giving it <b>8.9</b>
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<blockquote>The main draw for those who purchase Hordes of the Underdark (other than the new campaign) is the revised level cap, which BioWare has doubled to 40. The level 20 cap was a sore point for most who played Neverwinter Nights. While the feature will be applauded by the vast majority of Neverwinter fans, I must admit that I bristle at the thought of epic levels. I played pen and paper D&D for over a decade. It was an obsession. And throughout all those gaming sessions, the peak of power the members of our gaming group attained was level nine. To us, this was a moment of pride, an achievement of great magnitude. We fought every step of the way to reach that pinnacle, and cheated death more times than I can recall. So it makes me queasy to think of the consequences of setting the cap so high. I worry that BioWare might be drifting into Diablo "power gaming" territory. Perhaps I'm old school (no, that doesn't mean I'm playing with first-edition rules or that I have a poster of Gary Gygax on my wall) but I'm convinced that D&D is at its best when magic items are few and far between, levelling up is slow and any opponent -- even the lowliest orc -- presents a genuine threat.
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Role-playing opportunities in the campaign are limited to the familiar BioWare formula of dialogue choices. You "role-play" your character by making critical decisions at key plot points. This isn't a bad thing, really. It's just nothing new. If you're looking for a more authentic role-playing route, you'll want to break out the old source material and 20-sided dice. </blockquote>
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That sums Bio games very nicely: <i>You "role-play" your character by making critical decisions at key plot points</i>. It's worth noting that the reviewer liked the game overall for what it is, but unlike many other reviewers he didn't try to pretend that it's a pinnacle of role-playing.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.gengamers.com">GenGamers</A>

 

[Volourn]

Now, now. Don't change your review style of reviews just because Grom is on the war path. :shock:

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I think it might have more to do with Role-Player and EvoG, but the comment is correct and a good observation by the reviewer.

Grom has as much to do with the direction of this site as a Lung Fish deep in the mud somewhere in Queensland, AU has on a freight train going from Chicago to Saint Louis.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I think it might have more to do with Role-Player and EvoG, but the comment is correct and a good observation by the reviewer.

Because of me? I did nothing more than to point out one or two things were, in my opinion, out of line. You also agreed with me on the whole retarded deal (or so you led me into thinking, you evil Richard Karn, you :D )

I honestly doubt one or two comments of mine would make VD change his mind; neither should they. He's part of the staff and can do what he feels is correct; i'm just a worthless suplicant waiting to get tosses some scraps of news

 

[Sol Invictus]

That's the longest analogy you've ever written. What's up with that? We need more fruit analogies.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Saint is correct, my remarks yesterday caused some unexpected controversy: Role-Player decided to role-play Skorpio, Saint agreed with him, EvoG thought that it's politically incorrect to point out stupidity, and a number of people thought that I called them retards which proves that they really are since they can't fucking read. Anyway, all that called for re-evaluation of my approach to news posting. I would also like to reassure my readers that my personal biased and evil ways remain unchanged and to prove it I'd like to declare that:

1. Bio sucks
2. Casual gamers are morons as they are responsible for DS, IE games, NWN, MW, and anything else that starts with MMO.
3. Borrowing from the local poet Exitium: Fuck the lowest common denominator

Opinions are welcome

Edit: I couldn't care less about Gromnir's opinion because he's even more biased then he claims me to be.

 

[Volourn]

Good. You wouldn't be VD otherwise.

VD = Viper Disease. :shock:

 

[Jed]

Voracious Dawg.

 

[Anonymous]

Heh, the fact that NWN players disliked the level 20 cap alone is a point of how the game sucks, level 20 is suppost to be your prime, it takes a long time of playing PnP to get there. Took me about a year to get 21 on my Human Barbarian I have.

NWN is just too damn easy. Epic levels are suppost to be rewards and stuff, I believe, like extra levels the DM can give if he wishes. Way to go BioWare in sloppying doing D&D some more!

 

[Volourn]

1 year to geta level 21 character in pnp? Eitehr you play 24 hours a day; or your dm is free on the xp hand outs.

If it's in NWN that character; you play slow.

Either way, you suck.

 

[Voss]

Level 20 isn't supposed to be your prime, anyway.
20 is legendary hero territory- those one in 1 billion people that make Conan look like a wuss.

Most characters should top out at around 9-12th level. Coincidently where the 'name' levels fell in first edition. This is where you find retired heroes turned community leaders, building strongholds and generally getting too old for that adventuring crap.
Occasionally wandering out of retirement when the young whippersnappers just can't cut the mustard.

 

[Volourn]

Yup. Exactly.

 

[Elwro]

It was only after I played WFRP with my friends for a few years that their (and mine, we switched DMing) characters achieved truly heroic status. So we decided to dump them and began with new ones, but left the old ones in the world, so our chars could meet them. It was more fun to begin with a new undeveloped hero.

 

[Eron]

The thing is, with Neverwinter nights, if you are the DM and control a small group of NWN players, you CAN play it like PNP.. YOU CAN make your own rules, AND magic items CAN be few and far between..

No NWN is not the pinnacle of CRPG's. But it's not a step backwards thats for certain.

NWN can be many things to many people.. Just like PNP...

 

[Volourn]

And, to some, it's trash just like pnp.

 

[Limorkil]

I'm convinced that D&D is at its best when magic items are few and far between, levelling up is slow and any opponent -- even the lowliest orc -- presents a genuine threat.

I totally agree with this. The PnP campaigns we used to play had almost no magical items. I think we played one for about a year and found a total of three magical items, all of them fairly minor. Finding such an item was an awesome experience because they were so rare. We never used a D&D-like "levels" system either, preferring a system where you spent XP directly on skill increases. Even after many such skill increases a lowly orc-type creature was a threat because characters could not easily survive a heavy sword blow, and healing during combat was not possible (if you got injured, you ended up stuck in bed wearing bandages and healing salve for a few days).

I agree that Bioware games tend to dish out magical items like they're going out of style. However, in all fairness to them the PnP D&D rules and PnP D&D modules do the same. One reason we never played D&D much was that we hated that the treasure tables and the NPCs in the modules always had a ridiculous number of magical items. The odd thing about D&D IMO is that it started out almost like a CRPG, in that there was a lot of emphasis on killing stuff, acquiring loot and gaining levels. The 3rd ed rules are a little better because they cover other areas of adventuring and point out that hack and slash is not always the best option. I think D&D evolved to that because the players wanted more and put more emphasis in roleplaying and storytelling in their own campaigns. To some extent, the CRPGs are moving in the same direction, although there is a long way to go. My point in mentioning this is that when you have good roleplaying and story the magical items and levelling are less important because they players are rewarded in other ways. When you have a game that lacks story and roleplaying elements, all you have to fall back on is loot and XP, which seems to be where Bioware are with NWN ("Can anyone think of a story that is not totally lame-ass? No? Okay, let's bung in more critters and some +6 flaming longswords.")

 

[Unit-Qz52]

1. Bio sucks
2. Casual gamers are morons as they are responsible for DS, IE games, NWN, MW, and anything else that starts with MMO.
3. Borrowing from the local poet Exitium: Fuck the lowest common denominator

Opinions are welcome

Concerning number 2, what would you list as games people like yourself are responsible for?

 

[Vault Dweller]

1. Bio sucks
2. Casual gamers are morons as they are responsible for DS, IE games, NWN, MW, and anything else that starts with MMO.
3. Borrowing from the local poet Exitium: Fuck the lowest common denominator

Opinions are welcome

Concerning number 2, what would you list as games people like yourself are responsible for?

I smell a trap, but what the hell....
Arcanum, Prelude to Darkness, Geneforge, EVN, to name a few...

 

[Jed]

I smell a trap, but what the hell....
Arcanum, Prelude to Darkness, Geneforge, EVN, to name a few...

Maybe you'll make your reflex save...

 

[Unit-Qz52]

There is no trap, just curious. You originally listed off a bunch of games that were all fairly popular, and games I have played and some of them are my personal favorites. Your list of good games or games that you feel someone with similar taste would enjoy are very obscure, in fact I only recognize Arcanum. I have not yet found the time to play Arcanum though I want to. Now I am curious about these other games that I don't know. I will have to do a little research. Like many others here, you hold a very high standard of what you like in your RPG's. I disagree with a few of the games that you rate as poor, but definately a couple of them, especially DS, are games I found lacking.

No trap, just commenting on your comment.

 

[Volourn]

What's funny is that VD actually likes the BG series as 'adventure games" yet he says mroons are the cause of games he likes. Where in the bejeebers is the logic in that?

 

[Vault Dweller]

There is no trap, just curious.

Sorry then, one can never be too careful around here Actually, this comment referred to another conversation, so don't take it too seriously Welcome, btw.

You originally listed off a bunch of games that were all fairly popular, and games I have played and some of them are my personal favorites.

Some games that I listed were good, but they could have been much better. For example, MW is not nearly as good as Daggerfall was.

Your list of good games or games that you feel someone with similar taste would enjoy are very obscure, in fact I only recognize Arcanum.

We have a forum for Prelude here, check it out. Geneforge is one of the Spiderweb games. Try the demos, you will be pleasantly surprised if you dig role-playing. There are also Geneforge 2 and Avernum series. EVN (Escape Velocity: Nova) is right here.

Like many others here, you hold a very high standard of what you like in your RPG's. I disagree with a few of the games that you rate as poor, but definately a couple of them, especially DS, are games I found lacking.

What's funny is that VD actually likes the BG series as 'adventure games" yet he says mroons are the cause of games he likes. Where in the bejeebers is the logic in that?

I didn't say that all these games were poor games, but they certainly were poor RPGs. BG series and KOTOR are good adventure games that I enjoyed, MW was good for awhile, etc. Imo, the casual gamer is responsible because as long as everyone praises KOTOR from different angles: best story, tactical combat, awesome choices, etc, Bio wouldn't have a reason to make different games. Once again, for you, Volourn, I enjoyed BG2 the adventure game but I'd have rather played BG2 the rpg.

 

[Unit-Qz52]

Imo, the casual gamer is responsible because as long as everyone praises KOTOR from different angles: best story, tactical combat, awesome choices, etc, Bio wouldn't have a reason to make different games.

This doesn't make any sense. Why would Bio want to make different games? They have employees that need to be paid, and the games they make certainly allow them to do this. They have to make games that people will buy.

I just tried to play Prelude...I couldn't or I won't. I can't say if the R part of the RPG is bad, but the PG part is horrific.

Would it be too far a stretch to think that you would love BG as an RPG if it combined the part you love about it, and the role playing that is in Prelude?

I only played Prelude until I died, which wasn't long, but I didn't notice anything that made it stand out as a fantastic RPG. And I was definately looking past the ugliness of the engine. I would be of the opinion that Prelude is a completely subpar game especially compared to BG. What is it that game has that BG doesn't have? Is the functionality in the first village and surrounding area constant through out the game?

I can't see any company making any profit on a game like Prelude, unless this game already did because it is really really old.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

*blinks* Ummm........ *blinks*

 

[Elwro]

We have smilies for that, Otaku.