Review KotOR sweet love at OcPrices

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

<A href="http://www.ocprices.com/">OcPrices</a> has gotten up <A href="http://www.ocprices.com/?game_id=52">a review</a> of <A href="Http://www.swkotor.com">Knights of the Old Republic</a>. They give it an <b>EXCELLENT</b> rating. Here's a clip on hardware issues:
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<blockquote>One major problem with Knights of the Old Republic seems to be its overall compatibility with people’s systems. I admit I got the game a few months after release, and patched it as soon as I received it, and have had no problems. However, if I had got the game and didn’t patch it intially I may have had problems as there was a major issue with 9600 Radeons that was addressed in the latest fix.</blockquote>
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Oddly enough, I have a Radeon 9600 and I never had a problem with this game. Oh well.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.bluesnews.com">Blue's News</A>

 

[Transcendent One]

I just had a debate with a KotOR fanboy on a GFAQs board recently, and when I started bringing up issues like how the combat sucks, how the game is linear, etc. he started saying that I'm just bashing the game for no reason and then said that KotOR does have problems, like the length or the steep system requirements. I decided that if the guy thinks KotOR's major problems are steep system requirements, he's a fanboy beyond the possibility of getting help.

 

[Volourn]

I agree the combat isn't the best; but to say it's linear depends on what you are comparing it to. It has a central path you must complete; but usually how you do them and in what order (for the most part) is up to you.

 

[Spazmo]

It is true that KotOR provides multiple ways to accomplish individual quests and does it well. They just need to apply that to a game-wide scale.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

It is true that KotOR provides multiple ways to accomplish individual quests and does it well. They just need to apply that to a game-wide scale.

Don't say that, you'll ruin everyone's impression of us. What will Vollie or Teatime think of us because we're actually saying Bioware did something well?

 

[Jed]

Well, considering that no matter how much we criticize ToEE, Volourn never seems to acknowledge it, so I can't imagine he'd be able to assimilate the fact that we complimented a Bio game on some merit or another...

 

[Volourn]

X, you mean the same way I'm labeled a BIo fanboy despite criticizing various parts of their games heavily? Not as funny when the shoe is on YOUR foot, huh?

RP, sorry one actual good thing by one poster doesn't change the overall view.

Spazmo, good one. It's just too bad that's the first real positive worthwile thing you've said about a game you say you "like". I do agree it be nicer if it effected game wide. Something that was done to a greater scale in HOTU... Hmm..

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

RP, sorry one actaul good thing by one poster doesn't change the overall view.

Thats just it, though; even if its said several times by several people, you still wouldn't change your point of view about it.

 

[Jed]

X, you maean the same way I'm labeled a BIo fanboyd espite criticizing various parts of their game heavily? Not as funny when the show is on YOUR foot, huh?

Exactly. Now about that show on your foot...are you mixing metaphors, or is that some kinda Canuck thang?

 

[Volourn]

RP: You want me to list all the negative things stated about KOTOR from various baord memebrs? I mean for a game that is "liked" here the list of dislikes is longer than likes. Spazmo's point is the first real positive that I've heard outside of graphics, music and other "frivilous stuff" about KOTOR since SP's review. Hmm..

X: LOL, No, that's more about putting my foot in my keyboard then anything..

P.S. Stupid typos.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

RP: You want me to list all the negative things stated about KOTOR from various baord memebrs?

No, i want you to stop acting like other people, Gromnir included, who claim that whatever positive statement is made here is useless because we make more negative appreciations of a game than positive ones. I mean, i see you defend Bioware many times, even more times than i see you making negative comments about them, but i know you're quite capable of both things.

 

[Volourn]

You don't always get what you want. And, if you think comparing me to Gromnir will hurt; think again. My entire point is that you guys don't *only* post the negatives about KOTOR. heck, I post negatives about KOTOR. the problem is you guys (in general; there are exceptions, of course); but the problem is supposedly KOTOR was *liked* by RPGCodex yet there has been very little proof of thata ctually being the case. When one likes soemthing they tend to emphasize the strengths and mention the weaknesses in hopes of improving it; not just listing all the negatives over,a nd over again.

Example: Most here agree that TOEE isn't the best role-playing game. Guess what/ Do they hype on that? No, they don't. They concentrate on the parts they *do* like ala the combat, graphics, whatever. Yet they don't do that with KOTOR, and the obvious reason why is that it's a BIO game and TOEE is done by their God Tim Cain Who Once Again Did Not Make Fallout By Himself tm (hehe :D ). Cain's games' problems are blamed on the publisher; BIo's games' problems ar eblamed on BIO. Hmm.. At least when i diss a BIO game it's BIo I pick on and not some Evil Publisher Inc.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

And, if you think comparing me to Gromnir will hurt; think again.

Eh? Whatchoo' talkin' bout, Willis?

My entire point is that you guys don't *only* post the negatives about KOTOR. heck, I post negatives about KOTOR. the problem is you guys (in general; there are exceptions, of course); but the problem is supposedly KOTOR was *liked* by RPGCodex yet there has been very little proof of thata ctually being the case. When one likes soemthing they tend to emphasize the strengths and mention the weaknesses in hopes of improving it; not just listing all the negatives over,a nd over again.

Well, if a person liked a game, but if that game still doesn't do some things as well as other games, there isn't much of a point to bring up its good points, is there? In fact the overall appreciation KoTOR seems to have gotten was because it was overall fun, but mainly because Bioware seemed to be on the right track, not because it did everything right and better than other titles.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Example: Most here agree that TOEE isn't the best role-playing game. Guess what/ Do they hype on that? No, they don't. They concentrate on the parts they *do* like ala the combat, graphics, whatever.

Probably because it's a dungeon crawler. Combat is pretty important in a dungeon crawler. Saying a dungeon crawler isn't the best role-playing game is up there with saying water is wet.

 

[Araanor]

A significant part of the reason why the RPGCodex and it's inhabitants may appear to be bashing KOTOR and going easy on TOEE is due to the view of the general gaming populace and reviewers of these games. Sure, KOTOR may be a good game, but the reviewers are putting it forward as possibly TEH BEST EVAR. And certainly, TOEE may not be much of an RPG per se, but many of the reviewers are clanking on entirely wrong things and coming across as utter idiots.

This community has a somewhat common orientation (wouldn't be much of a community otherwise), the reviewers generally have another. The conflict is inevitable. What happens is that when yet another gleeful and naive KOTOR review is posted, people react. When another clueless and misrepresenting review of TOEE is posted, people equally react. Reviews keep getting posted, people keep reacting in turn.

It's the views contrary to the reviewers people will feel compelled to express, and it's these views that will be made most apparent.

 

[Vault Dweller]

My entire point is that you guys don't *only* post the negatives about KOTOR...but the problem is supposedly KOTOR was *liked* by RPGCodex yet there has been very little proof of thata ctually being the case. When one likes soemthing they tend to emphasize the strengths and mention the weaknesses in hopes of improving it; not just listing all the negatives over,a nd over again.

You see, that's your problem, right here. You assumed that that's what people do when they like something forgetting that things are not always black&white but there are shades as well. I like KOTOR as an ok, average game, that while failed to shine in any particular area, doesn't suck as much as many other games. Overall, it's ok, I feel I was reasonably entertained for the price paid unlike NWN, LH, MOO3, and some other crap that I returned. Now, ToEE on the other hand, while featuring an average non-combat gameplay, really shines in the combat department, making it on the best tb games I've ever played. It has tons of replayability unlike KOTOR that has only 3 classes and 3 combat feats.

Example: Most here agree that TOEE isn't the best role-playing game. Guess what/ Do they hype on that? No, they don't. They concentrate on the parts they *do* like ala the combat, graphics, whatever. Yet they don't do that with KOTOR, and the obvious reason why is that it's a BIO game

No, the obvious reason, my near-sighted friend, is that KOTOR doesn't have an outstanding part that's worth having a conversation about.

Cain's games' problems are blamed on the publisher; BIo's games' problems ar eblamed on BIO.

I can't believe I have to explain THAT to you. Cain's games' problems are blamed on publishers because these are publishers' related problems: Sierra forced RT, Atari rushed ToEE, these are not the choices made by Troika. Bio's issues are gameplay related, these are 100% Bio decisions. It's not like a publisher gives a damn how Bio handles quests, and how many classes and feats are in the game.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

This community has a somewhat common orientation (wouldn't be much of a community otherwise), the reviewers generally have another.

Ain't counter culture cool?

But yeah, that's a good part of it. It's backlash. ToEE is definitely a lot better than most reviews say it is, and KotOR certainly isn't anywhere near as great as the reviews claim it to be. Hell, the combat in KotOR alone should keep it below a 90% considering how much of it there is in the game and how awful it is.

 

[Volourn]

Araanor has a good point. He wins. Yup, that's true, KOTOR's review tend to overrate it compared to what I think its value is. However, I think most of the reviews of TOEE have ben fair since most of them do state that the combat is good (though some do complain about the mythical complexity when it isn't). And, they tend to bash the awful story, unmemorable characters, pathetoc role-playing as they should.

VD has a bad point. He loses. Sorry, bud, bottom line is its just making exuses for Mr. Cain. You don't think BIO has to answer to their publisher. If you don't think they do; you are more naive then I thought.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Its true that Atari rushed ToEE, but how many times did Troika exceeded the deadline they agreed to meet?

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD has a bad point. He loses.

Wow, this is so cool. I was afraid that we'd have a discussion and I'd waste a lot of time stating the obvious. Instead, we have "no, bad point, you lose", is that fast and efficient or what? Saves a lot of time.

You don't think BIO has to answer to their publisher. If you don't think they do; you are more naive then I thought.

I wish to be more naive, being a cynical bastard kinda sucks, but anyway, I do realize that Bio has to answer to the publishers, and that the restrictions apply to them as well, but - and pay attention this time - things that we criticize Bio for are the things that 100% are up to Bio, while things that we criticize Troika for are those forced by the publishers. I mean this isn't that hard to comprehend, is it?

Its true that Atari rushed ToEE, but how many times did Troika exceeded the deadline they agreed to meet?

No, do tell, how many? Btw, a deadline in any software development business is a guideline, nothing more. A person who fails to realize that is clueless. Did Atari rushed MOO3? No, they gave it more then a year, if I'm not mistaken, and it still sucked ass. Blizzard is a good example of why it's more important and beneficial to release a game when "it's ready" then to kick it out as soon as possible

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Two, if i'm not mistaken; though it may have been just one (however there was a deadline which wasn't met). Note that i'm not saying Atari wasn't at fault, but Troika wasn't exactly accurate. They agreed to the deadline even before they started making the game.

 

[Volourn]

1. Sometiems, VD, it's better to just disagree then us going back and forth arguing the same old things.

2. Really? So, it was the publisher's fault that you think that Arcanum had "horrible" combat? I beg (and I don't do that often) to differ. They made Troika do both TB and Rt combat; but they never said the combat must be bad. I sure hope they didn't. Same with TOEE. Atari didn't say you must make the first town to be the worst town in ANY crpg ever. At least, again, I hope not. These things were 100% done by Troika. JUst like the solid rules implementaion,a dn the good story in Arcanum were up to Troika 100%.

And, oh, as we all know, the publisher pretty much has final say on basically all content. Yout elling me that Lucas Arts didn't go through KOTOR witha fine tooth comb to make sure it was Perfectly Acepttable to them, and to maintain their supposed good reputation? I seriosuly doubt that's the case.

RP, to be a bit fair, almost every game's release date gets pushed back. This isn't a Troika problem per se; but a game industry problem. Still, they did agree to get it done in a certain time frame and Atari is wellw ithin their rights to release it any time after that point. Of course, they're just not hruting troika; but themsleves as well. They both made poor decisions here.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Thats my point. Blaming just one is pointless when both were at fault.

 

[Vault Dweller]

They agreed to the deadline even before they started making the game.

You do realize that it's absolutely impossible to predict development of any software and guarantee that it would take exactly [insert a random number here] to finish a game. Like I said it's merely a guideline.

Sometiems, VD, it's better to just disagree then us going back and forth arguing the same old things

Of course, only disagreeing is one thing, claiming that the other side lost is another :wink:

So, it was the publisher's fault that you think that Arcanum had "horrible" combat?

Yep. I'm under impression that it's impossible to make a good rt/tb combo for various reasons: the mechanics are way too different. So by asking to implement that, Sierra ensured that the combat would suck.

They made Troika do both TB and Rt combat; but they never said the combat must be bad

Ha! It's like saying make a RT DnD game and expect a faithful adaptation :wink:

Atari didn't say you must make the first town to be the worst town in ANY crpg ever

I agree, but that was noted many, many times here and nobody said anything good about it. It was the main sourse of criticism, although I doubt it's the worst town evar, to be honest with you.

Yout elling me that Lucas Arts didn't go through KOTOR witha fine tooth comb to make sure it was Perfectly Acepttable to them, and to maintain their supposed good reputation? I seriosuly doubt that's the case.

Are you telling me that LA told Bio to limit classes and combat feats to 3 thus killing any combat-related replayability? To make ranged weapons useless? To make it extremely linear? I doubt that. I'm sure they had many restrictions in regard to SW and D20, but the things that people here complained about are the choices made by Bio alone.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

They weren't exactly dealing with predictions. And if its "impossible to predict development of any software and guarantee that it would take exactly [insert a random number here] to finish a game", then perhaps they should have asked for a larger timeline before saying "Yes" and then not being able to fulfill it. But its ok if you want to keep laying blame exclusively on Atari. Thats not really my problem.