Codex Interview V:tm - Bloodlines; Leonard Boyarsky interviewed

[Whipporowill]

Tags: Leonard Boyarsky; Troika Games; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines

We got a chance to ask Leonard Boyarski a few questions on Troika's highly anticipated Vampire: the Masquerade Bloodlines. Here's a snippet:

Considering fire is one of the only things than can seriously hurt and/or kill a Vampire in the World of Darkness, it's pretty serious stuff. Will there be Flamethrowers or Molotov Cocktails, and if so, how does fire psychics work? Will it spread through the area and take hold or just flicker and die as in most games it's been used?

We're currently at work implementing the flamethrower, but there are no Molotov cocktails. Fire isn't affected by physics, so it doesn't spread on its own. It does cause aggravated damage to vampires, as it should, but a lot of other damage types affect and are dangerous to vampires in the White Wolf system.
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Mmm. Nothing like the smell of burning undead in the morning. Click here for the rest of the mouthwatering interview.

 

[Psilon]

Cool. Fire psychics. Do they know what they're going to burn?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Fire psychics are overrated. I always prefer Fire psychos, they are unstoppable.

 

[Whipporowill]

It's supposed to be physics of course. English not native language. Uh. Err.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Good interview. I hope the melee combat system will be fluid and customizable enough, though. I don't feel like wrestling against controls.

 

[Voss]

What the fuck?

1) what's this talk of feats? feats? In the Storyteller system? Attributes, yes, abilities, yes. Feats, no.

2) manuals of stat raising. Huzzah.

3) limited to clan disciplines only? Wow. How much did the ruleset get altered to make this even *vaguely* viable? Because otherwise (for example) only Ventrue and Gangrel could resist (soak) fire, sunlight and other assorted nastiness. Anyone else? Dead. (maybe not instantly, but 2-3 hits/exposures/burns...). Tremere can only sit back and cast spells, malkavians can't do anything physical either... gah. No wonder guns have had such an emphasis in a lot of the preview. Its the only viable combat option half the clans have. And same for why the preview characters have been the clan stereotype. It's all you're allowed to play!

Screw playing the independents or Sabbat, let us play a full fleshed out vampire of any type. Choices... choices....choices....

between this and shooter combat, I've gone off the game again. Ah well. Something is bound to come out that I actually want to buy, right?
Right?

Anyone?

Bueller?

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Dont be such a negative nancy.

 

[Raymondo]

It's supposed to be physics of course. English not native language. Uh. Err.

Excuses, excuses.

 

[Voss]

why not?
Being straitjacketed into stereotypes isn't something I want to do in an RPG.
Neither is playing a FPS.

What is there to attract me into playing this game? The pixel jiggle?

 

[Spazmo]

They're very nice pixels.

 

[Kortalh]

What the fuck?

1) what's this talk of feats? feats? In the Storyteller system? Attributes, yes, abilities, yes. Feats, no.

I think he means more along the lines of "performing a feat of dexterity" rather than "using a deflect bullets feat". In other words, Rolling Dex+Dodge = Feat.

2) manuals of stat raising. Huzzah.

Note that he said 'abilities', not 'attributes'. If I read a book on programming in C++, I'd learn (hopefully) how to program in C++. If my character read a book on Lockpicking, I'd hope that my character learns how to pick locks.

Nobody seems to have any problems with skill-raising books being in Fallout...

3) limited to clan disciplines only? Wow. How much did the ruleset get altered to make this even *vaguely* viable?

In the P&P book, a new character can begin only with clan-specific disciplines (unless the ST says otherwise). When gaining experience, they can only invest points into clan-specific disciplines (unless the ST says otherwise). I don't see how the rules have been altered for the computer game.

 

[Voss]

Wrong. sort of wrong and blatantly wrong

1) reread the damn thing. hacking as feat. occult as a feat (to use devices). etc, etc. This isn't 'feat of dexterity' kind of crap.

2) maybe starts to learn how to pick locks. its an iffy thing depending on how exactly its implemented.

3) The more esoteric disciplines can be regulated by the ST, but the physical ones and some of the 'classic vampire' powers are common ground. Particularly potence & fortitude. Hell, ghouls get potence. Its inherent in the blood. I could see protean and thaumaturgy being restricted (dementation too) given the nature of the relevant clans, but fortitude or dominate? Basic survival disciplines for vampires. mind control and memory wiping so victims don't remember being attacked by vampires- keeping the Masquerade and all that. Its a rather basic thing.

And the vaguely viable remark was directed strictly at fortitude. Theres a lot of combat in the game. In PnP fortitude is the *ONLY* way to soak aggravated damage. You think it isn't going to show up in a game with flame throwers? Yet only two clans in the game will possess fortitude. That fucks things up in a major way... none of the other clans will have defenses against such things (barring the addition of a herd of magic items that are equally inappropriate to the setting) And even with normal weapons, ventrue and gangrel characters will have a much easier time of it than any other characters...


My problem with it overall is that its severely restrictive. Instead of playing the character you want, its going to be:
to play a stealth character, you must be malkavian or nosferatu
melee characters will be brujah or gangrel (and nosferatu to a lesser extent)
diplomat characters will be ventrue (easy) or toreador/brujah/tremere (harder, but with other skills)
if you aren't a melee character or a tremere, you better get a fucking gun to deal with all the half-life style shooting...

 

[Sol Invictus]

Why should every Clan have melee capabilities? The Tremere are the only ones fully trained in hand to hand combat. Expecting every single clan to be proficient in everything is a lot like expecting US Marines to be good at airborne halo-dropping or for the 101st to be good at amphibious assaults.

I don't see why someone raised or converted by the Ventrue would be any good at hand to hand combat, which is much harder to learn than gunfighting, or why a Gangrel would be good at diplomacy, being fucking ugly and all.

 

[Whipporowill]

Why should every Clan have melee capabilities? The Tremere are the only ones fully trained in hand to hand combat. Expecting every single clan to be proficient in everything is a lot like expecting US Marines to be good at airborne halo-dropping or for the 101st to be good at amphibious assaults.
.

Tremere good at hand to hand combat? Whaaaa? They're the MAGES, Rex... are you thinking of Brujah here, or what? Both Gangrel and Brujah are leaning towards being combat chars...

 

[Sol Invictus]

Oops. Mindslip - yeah, I was thinking of the Brujah. Everyone else can be good at guns, no problem - but they're definitely going to have a hard time in some cases.

 

[Voss]

Thanks for the innacurate generalizations, Ex.
Feel free to post again when you have the vaguest idea of what you're talking about.
(heres a hint: you need to know more about the Vampire clans. And they're a collection of individuals, not clones)

And the point, anyway, was that it is nice, in an RPG, to create the character you want to play, and not have to play little carcicatures inflicted on you by someone else.

 

[Whipporowill]

I think I heard something about stereotyping the clans a bit and in that way cause more replayability (wanna sneak? Play a Nossie! Want to blood boil? Play a Tremere!)... possibly something Leon said in the Gamespy chat last month. Anway, that will probably be "fixed" in a simple hack a week or so after the game is out - whether it imbalances the gameplay or not. There are a lot of modders out there after all...

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tremere might be mages, but that shouldn't mean none of them know how to use a sword. A clan shouldn't be a character class. Sure, clans might excel at certain things, and that might be their focus, but there shouldn't be anything really preventing someone from learning some skill because they aren't in that clan.

 

[Whipporowill]

And there aren't anything hindering a Tremere from picking up a sword, only that Troika forces a certain mold on the clans - for instance hindering a Tremere from choosing to focus on the physical attributes (meaning less damage than a brujah) or social attributes instead of the mental. A little annoying possibly, but hey... it can easily be remedied, I'm sure.

 

[Voss]

Eh. The assigned attribute groups couple with the lack of the relevant disciplines will make it nigh impossible to go against the grain. Going for melee combat without at least a level or two in potence, fortitude and celerity is a death sentence in a combat heavy Vampire game. And given how CRPGs go, there's not much of a chance of it being not combat heavy. You might get away with it early in the game, but the later combatants will eat you alive.

Look at it this way. It would be like D&D and only being able to play a fighter if you were a dwarf, a wizard if an elf, etc, etc...
the storyteller system is an open, skill based system. But for bloodlines, it's almost a class based system. You are who ate you.

 

[Kortalh]

Wrong. sort of wrong and blatantly wrong

1) reread the damn thing. hacking as feat. occult as a feat (to use devices). etc, etc. This isn't 'feat of dexterity' kind of crap.

Leon: "Occult was removed as a feat, as we wanted everyone to have access to using the occult items."

Yeah, I guess I was wrong there, now that I read it again.

2) maybe starts to learn how to pick locks. its an iffy thing depending on how exactly its implemented.

If a random person picked up a book on nuclear physics and tried to build a reactor in his basement, he would most likely fail - in fact, he probably wouldn't make it 20 pages into the book. But if that same random person picked up a book detailing how to operate a forklift, or how to build a canoe, he probably wouldn't have any problem at all doing either.

Hopefully there won't be any manuals which allow a player to jump from 1 to 6 dots by reading it, but honestly I can't see any justification as to why anyone shouldn't be able to read a book and gain a point of a skill.

I'll admit that it would be incredibly lame if there was an entire stack of books sitting around and the player could easily gain 6 dots in all skills. But if the player had a mission to break into a mansion and steal a jewel, reading a book about common security systems beforehand would fit right in.

3) The more esoteric disciplines can be regulated by the ST, but the physical ones and some of the 'classic vampire' powers are common ground.

I don't remember ever reading about 'common ground' disciplines. It's been a few months since I last played, but as I remember it, you start out with the option to invest in 1-3 of your clan's disciplines. After the character has been created you can only spend points on disciplines that you already know, regardless of whether the discipline belongs to your clan or not.

The only exception to that is, for example, if you have points in Mentor and the ST allows him to teach you an extra discipline. Or perhaps a member of your coterie offers to trade knowledge of disciplines.

The "basic survival disciplines" that you mention are the ability to heal and feed, not to become superhumanly strong or resistant.

My problem with it overall is that its severely restrictive.

I agree with you there, but without an active storyteller running the show, there really isn't much of a choice. Either limit things exactly as the P&P book says, or throw the rulebook out the window and just give the player everything s/he desires in an effort to make everyone happy.

 

[EEVIAC]

It costs ten experience points to get new discipline, but it costs current level * 7, as opposoed to current level * 5 for a clan discipline, to raise. You can even buy a new discipline at character creation with freebie points. Pretty much the only restriction the book gives is that is you need a good explanation as to why a character has those skills (and any other skills for that matter.)

Fair enough, a Ventrue is hardly going to have many opportunities to learn Obtenebration, but there's no reason why he couldn't pick up Auspex or Obfuscate from someone in the Camarilla.

 

[Voss]

Exactly.

And even with the rarer stuff (like say thaumaturgy) it'd be nice to have the option to charm/bluff/intimidate/bribe/barter with a member of the appropriate Clan to get some teaching done.
That'd be a worthwhile sidequest.

And yeah, 3 points in clan discipline, with the option to use freebie points for pretty much anything (that the ST doesn't quash), but the survival basics/'classic vampire stuff' are pointed out as something any vampire can learn, even without much teaching. They are simply so ingrained in the idea of vampires that they come more or less naturally.

my big problems with the learning books- time. Even with a book, you aren't going to be picking locks five seconds later (which is how it works in computer games). And of course, with the restrictions on disciplines and the reduced skill set, it devalues the XP and abilities somewhat (and hit the 5 dot limit that's going to be enforced with the lack of diablerie). don't waste xp on {insert skills here}, because you'll find books to get levels of that. Just wait for the walkthrough that tells you where they all are.

 

[StraitLacedDeviant]

I remember someone saying realism != fun before.

The gripes with the consistencies with the vampire PnP I can understand, but increasing skills from books I have no problem with.

Yes if you read a book about lockpicking you wouldn't be picking locks five minutes later irl, but neither would you be drinking blood to survive irl.

As for reading a walkthrough to find where they are, if you are the type of person that uses walkthroughs to exploit games then you should be more than happy you can crack whore the game that way. Everyone else should just play through the game as intended.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Yeah. Games shouldn't build themselves around fucking walkthroughs. Just because there might be a way or two to exploit the game doesn't mean you, as a developer, have to find ways to stop people from cheating. No. If people want to cheat, they'll find ways. If people want to metagame, it's their choice - it's their game. That's the beauty of single player RPGs, nobody else has to suffer for your exploits.