Interview Bethesda engine can't handle ladders.

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Tags: Bethesda Softworks

<p>Yes, that's sad news for everyone of us waiting for the appearance of ladders in Bethesda games. <a href="http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/111/1112469p1.html" target="_blank">Todd Howard explains why.</a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>Howard explained the primary reason for not being able to include ladders into environments is due to their engine, saying ladders caused problems for character AI. <br /> "One day, we tried to figure out why we wanted ladders so bad because we don't really need them. It just felt like we're game development pussies because we can't do ladders."</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Spotted at: <a href="http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/99205-why-there-are-no-ladders-in-bethesdas-rpgs.html">GB</a></p>

 

[Konjad]

we're game development pussies

Looks like he speaks truth sometimes after all

 

[Mhain]

This is... impossible. Really, this must be a joke - There cannot be any difficulty with the implementation of ladders in any game, seriously.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

This is... impossible. Really, this must be a joke - There cannot be any difficulty with the implementation of ladders in any game, seriously.

You don't know Bethesda. They're real special folks.

 

[Tramboi]

This is... impossible. Really, this must be a joke - There cannot be any difficulty with the implementation of ladders in any game, seriously.

You need:
- specific state machines just for being on ladders
- transition from, to ladders
- can you shoot from a ladder? if no, should the AI drop the ladder, climb up or climb down before shooting, or should we implement shooting from the ladder?
- same for melee combat
- same for using objects
- if there's a stair and a ladder to go to a place, which one should the AI use if the ladder is the nearest but it can't fight while climbing a ladder?
- what happens when two AI crosses themselves in a ladder?
- what happens when an AI in a ladder dies? when the corpse falls on somebody down the ladder?
... and so on...

and that's why game design is more complicated that it seems (and why it should be left to programming types, not to artistic types, like it was done in the past)

 

[thesheeep]

Well, having ladders (or anything that can be climbed, like a wall, or whatever) is a feature and coders have to work to get that feature.
And it has some complications coming with it, like not being able to shoot, etc.

So, it is a certain effort and takes some time. Maybe their time schedule was so cramped when developing the engine, that there was no time for it.

That would be an explanation... at least.. some kind of...


Pff.. f*ck it. They have lazy coders, that is all. Even though the above explanation and the one of Tramboi may be right, there is no reason not to have that feature by now.

and that's why game design is more complicated that it seems (and why it should be left to programming types, not to artistic types, like it was done in the past)

Haha, qft.

 

[shihonage]

and that's why game design is more complicated that it seems (and why it should be left to programming types, not to artistic types, like it was done in the past)

No, there should be a balance. Every John Romero needs his John Carmack.

When you let "programmer types" make the entire game, you get something blandly homogenous that is seemingly designed by high-functioning autistics (ex. Doom 3, Fallout 3).

 

[Tramboi]

No, there should be a balance. Every John Romero needs his John Carmack.

Romero - Carmack = Daikatana

When you let "programmer types" make the entire game, you get something blandly homogenous that is seemingly designed by high-functioning autistics (ex. Doom 3, Fallout 3).

Like nearly every game before the 90s you mean? Like Infocom masterpieces of storytelling?
Examples are too numerous, but you can't be more wrong.
Artists are for art.
Coders are for code.
Coders are for game design too.

 

[thesheeep]

I'm not sure I can agree on that.
IMHO, the good game designers are those that have some experience or insight into the programming stuff. Because all others will just come up with stuff that is impossible to implement or not worth the effort.
Of course, the best game designers are those that also have some insight into the artist stuff, like.. not requesting three unique models with unique textures for that one unimportant sidequest.


Also, Fallout 3 was far from developed by high-functioning people

Coders are for game design too.

Ehr, well, yeah, but only very few. Most should just stick to being code monkeys for their game designers.
Unfortunaly, most coders (at least those I know) have absolutely no affinity for interesting game design.

 

[Mhain]

and that's why game design is more complicated that it seems (and why it should be left to programming types, not to artistic types, like it was done in the past)

Man, I am a programmer. I also know how Bethesda games work, I have done a fair bit of modding (mainly for enjoyment, nothing with content) for Oblivion. You are just exaggerating the work required for such things.

 

[SuicideBunny]

and that's why game design is more complicated that it seems (and why it should be left to programming types, not to artistic types, like it was done in the past)

'cept none of it is in any way more complex or difficult than all the other shit you already have in a true 3d game with ai.

 

[ortucis]

Hmm AI using ladders.. nothing hard to do, a million ways to fake it but I doubt it they will bother (EDIT: Actually, faking would work but when player tries hitting the AI and sees no reaction, that will be called cheating in the forums world over, it'll be a calamity..).

For player character it is possible though, but I don't remember seeing AI use ladder in a Gamebryo games (like Gothic & Divinity 2).

In fact, in G3 you can escape the enemies by climbing anywhere AI can't reach, from what I remember at least.

 

[zappater]

and that's why game design is more complicated that it seems (and why it should be left to programming types, not to artistic types, like it was done in the past)

No, there should be a balance. Every John Romero needs his John Carmack.

When you let "programmer types" make the entire game, you get something blandly homogenous that is seemingly designed by high-functioning autistics (ex. Doom 3, Fallout 3).

You know John Romero has years and years of programming experience and was responsible for coding the world editors for games like Doom and Quake? You really shouldn't call him an artsy type when he is just as big of a genius when it comes to programming as Carmack is.

 

[Tramboi]

Unfortunaly, most coders (at least those I know) have absolutely no affinity for interesting game design.

Sure every coder is not into game mechanics.
But in my video game development career I've kept meeting game designers with no elaborate gaming culture and no understanding of the software engineering part.
Disaster game designers.
How many times have I seen programmers rewrite scripts because they were compltely logically flawed.
The tuning part of the job is often a joke too.
You open up many values for the game designer, who only know "x2" and "/2" fine-tuning operators. So you end up doing it.
Letting them tune physics parameters? Without knowing anything about newtonian mechanics?
And more than one designer on a project... a good recipe for non consistency.

A game *is* a program, the best we technicians can do is make this program data-driven enough for non-programmers to produce interesting content.
I'm pretty sure the decline is in large part due to producers and game designers not listening enough to people who understand the internals and logics.
Good coders and good artists, that's the right mix. Maybe one game designer, but a smart one.

 

[Tramboi]

and that's why game design is more complicated that it seems (and why it should be left to programming types, not to artistic types, like it was done in the past)

Man, I am a programmer. I also know how Bethesda games work, I have done a fair bit of modding (mainly for enjoyment, nothing with content) for Oblivion. You are just exaggerating the work required for such things.

I don't like glitches in a game when the fetaure is not so interesting. Do it well or don't do it
Sometimes cutting the feature is the good thing to do.

 

[Tramboi]

You know John Romero has years and years of programming experience and was responsible for coding the world editors for games like Doom and Quake? You really shouldn't call him an artsy type when he is just as big of a genius when it comes to programming as Carmack is.

I wouldn't call him a genius.
(Then I don't like Carmack (or anybody else in programming) being called a genius either, he's no Leibnitz or Poincaré)

 

[GarfunkeL]

This is... impossible. Really, this must be a joke - There cannot be any difficulty with the implementation of ladders in any game, seriously.

You need:
- specific state machines just for being on ladders
- transition from, to ladders
- can you shoot from a ladder? if no, should the AI drop the ladder, climb up or climb down before shooting, or should we implement shooting from the ladder?
- same for melee combat
- same for using objects
- if there's a stair and a ladder to go to a place, which one should the AI use if the ladder is the nearest but it can't fight while climbing a ladder?
- what happens when two AI crosses themselves in a ladder?
- what happens when an AI in a ladder dies? when the corpse falls on somebody down the ladder?
... and so on...

and that's why game design is more complicated that it seems (and why it should be left to programming types, not to artistic types, like it was done in the past)

OH YES LADDERS SO COMPLICATED!

I guess that list is why we never see them in any game ever - especially not used by AI!

 

[Tramboi]

No this list is why you don't see interesting ladders in 3D real-time games, just magic lifts where you can nearly do anything.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

This is... impossible. Really, this must be a joke - There cannot be any difficulty with the implementation of ladders in any game, seriously.

That quote sums up alot of modern developers, if it's not supplied from middleware then they don't have a clue.

 

[DraQ]

"Bethesda can't into AI" != news.

No this list is why you don't see interesting ladders in 3D real-time games, just magic lifts where you can nearly do anything.

Drakan and Divinity 2 (off the top of my head) prove you completely wrong.

 

[Visbhume]

OH YES LADDERS SO COMPLICATED!

I guess that list is why we never see them in any game ever - especially not used by AI!

In what games do NPCs use ladders?

 

[DraQ]

OH YES LADDERS SO COMPLICATED!

I guess that list is why we never see them in any game ever - especially not used by AI!

In what games do NPCs use ladders?

In STALKER, I believe.

 

[Darth Roxor]

OH YES LADDERS SO COMPLICATED!

I guess that list is why we never see them in any game ever - especially not used by AI!

In what games do NPCs use ladders?

They could do that even in Alpha Protocol

 

[Tramboi]

"Bethesda can't into AI" != news.

No this list is why you don't see interesting ladders in 3D real-time games, just magic lifts where you can nearly do anything.

Drakan and Divinity 2 (off the top of my head) prove you completely wrong.

Didn't play those. What can you do when climbing a stair and what can NPCs do?
Anyway if thery're any good they probably adressed many items in my list, which is the point if you read it properly:
it's not impossible, it's hard and expensive.

 

[DraQ]

"Bethesda can't into AI" != news.

No this list is why you don't see interesting ladders in 3D real-time games, just magic lifts where you can nearly do anything.

Drakan and Divinity 2 (off the top of my head) prove you completely wrong.

Didn't play those. What can you do when climbing a stair and what can NPCs do?

NPCs don't use them, but player character can barely do anything when climbing ladders, just move up or down, with ladder-specific animations.

Anyway if thery're any good they probably adressed many items in my list, which is the point if you read it properly:
it's not impossible, it's hard and expensive.

All you need is animations and states, some extra code for the AI (like checking if it is in combat when evaluating the cost of possible routes). As for the rest you can just disable some functions when on the ladder. Ragdolls also make death anims on the ladders trivial.

 

[made]

You need:
- specific state machines just for being on ladders
- transition from, to ladders
- can you shoot from a ladder? if no, should the AI drop the ladder, climb up or climb down before shooting, or should we implement shooting from the ladder?
- same for melee combat
- same for using objects
- if there's a stair and a ladder to go to a place, which one should the AI use if the ladder is the nearest but it can't fight while climbing a ladder?
- what happens when two AI crosses themselves in a ladder?
- what happens when an AI in a ladder dies? when the corpse falls on somebody down the ladder?
... and so on...

Yes, ladders are too complex a mechanic for the technology we have today. If you can't do it right don't do it at all. That's why Bethesda decided to drop the idea, just like Radiant AI which was too complex and advanced to be left in Oblivion so they dropped it altogether. Now they just need to drop story, dialogues, character advancement, and combat, all of which they can't do for shit either.

 

[thesheeep]

As for the rest you can just disable some functions when on the ladder.

Yes, if the engine supports disabling some random functions at that point in the game. That is by far no matter of course. Not even in modern engines.

If you plan ladders from the beginning, when building the engine, it is easy, but in all other cases, well...
All sounds easy in theory, but if some random engine factors somehow come together, a feature that sounds as easy as a ladder may turn out to be hard to implement.