Company News Troika articlette on FileFront

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Tim Cain; Troika Games

<A href="http://www.filefront.com/">FileFront</a> has posted a <A href="http://articles.filefront.com/F_True_Company_Story_Troika_Games/;235;;;/article.html">brief article</a> about <A href="http://www.troikagames.com">Troika Games</a> salted with a few comments from <b>Tim Cain</b>. Here's a bit about fluids:
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<blockquote>Troika’s employees have really felt at ease with the fluidity of company attitudes. The “open door” policy that they instated allows any employee to talk to anyone about anything, whether it is about a game’s design, contract stipulation or even sales figures and royalties. “The company is wide open,” Cain said.</blockquote>
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Yet, even with this policy, no one piped up and said, <i>Hey, isn't endlessly respawning zombies and ninjas a really stupid idea?</i> during the development of <A href="http://www.vampire-bloodlines.com">Bloodlines</a>? Novel!
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Thanks, <b>butsomuch</b>!

 

[Jinxed]

I'll list the bad stuff I found here:

Many engine bugs. People stuck in the cealing, my vamp becoming one with the floor, or people walking on benches.

Simple 2d objects. There is a whole slew of them. From far everything looks really well, but when approached they reveal their 2d simplicity.

A couple of scripting shortcuts and errors.

A lot of the locks cannot be opened without an apropriate trigger - lame
*SPOILER* The saved Nosferatu from the Syndicate just stays in that building for ever.
*SPOILER* When I entered the Nosferatu chick's room in the underground there were those glimmering star thingies on her desk for no apparent reason. Later on something appears in that spot. Or Therese reffering that Jeanette has found the golden pendant even though I never gave it her sister.

Isaac seems to suffer from Errorius Scriptus.

I'm sure there are other ones that seem to have slipped my mind right now.

Design:

You are being forced to continue on the main plot route without any pardon. It feels more like doing missions than playing an RPG.

The sewers which don't fit in an RPG. While a dungeon of a sort, they become boring 10 minutes in progress. This isn't an FPS, it just uses that perspective to present the game world, that doesn't mean it's a shooter.

Endless respawning at the last locations.

Inability to search bodies and carry more than one weapon of the same type.

And Saint, like I said in another thread, those aren't ninjas. Ninjas are Japanese assasins and the enemies found in Bloodlines are neither.

 

[Volourn]

"This isn't an FPS, it just uses that perspective to present the game world, that doesn't mean it's a shooter."

Get it right; you wannabe Exitium. BL is a FPS/RPG. Deal with it.

 

[Spazmo]

It's an action RPG that can be played from two different perspectives and generally will require both at one time or another. The distinction is trivial anyways (between FPS/RPG and action RPG, not between first person and third).

 

[mathboy]

But most ambitious, he also mentioned venturing into a heavily trodden path, changing it for the better. In short, creating a “true-role playing” MMORPG.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

 

[Jinxed]

Get it right; you wannabe Exitium. BL is a FPS/RPG. Deal with it.

It never was supposed to be an FPS. I was interested in this game long before you and read all the bit of info about it I could, official and non official. If you want to sound witty and make funny sounding remarks about others why don't you do that in the men's room? At least that's a place where your attention is worth anything to somebody.

It's an action RPG that can be played from two different perspectives and generally will require both at one time or another. The distinction is trivial anyways (between FPS/RPG and action RPG, not between first person and third).

How can you say that when 90% of the game is doing quests that are as interesting like the ones in Arcanum? There are a few places where combat is almost unavoidable, but so did Fallout or Arcanum.

Action CRPG = Diablo

Edit: Hell, Arcanum had more locations where you had to run and kill everything. No one called it Action RPG did they? Just what makes Bloodlines one? The perspective, like I said, has nothing to do with what the game's true nature is.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

And Saint, like I said in another thread, those aren't ninjas. Ninjas are Japanese assasins and the enemies found in Bloodlines are neither.

Chinese people don't use KATANAS, so they must be ninjas.

 

[Spazmo]

it's the style of combat--the twitchy, action-y combat--that makes it an action RPG for me. And how the hell is it "a few places" when almost the entire main plot is nothing but hack and slash? And no, there was no place where combat was utterly unavoidable in Fallout.

 

[Jinxed]

Chinese people don't use KATANAS, so they must be ninjas.

That's true, they don't. But notice that a lot of the weapon names are out of wack. While in dialog they are named correctly, when examined are something different. I would say that lack of information on the developers part would be the problem.

Oh and by the way, Ninjas aren't supposed to use katanas either, mostly wikizashis and ranged weapons like throwing knives etc. Katanas were used by Japanese swordsmen, the Samurai. Ninjas were supposed to be in few numbers and their arsenal would range by personal preference.

it's the style of combat--the twitchy, action-y combat--that makes it an action RPG for me. And how the hell is it "a few places" when almost the entire main plot is nothing but hack and slash? And no, there was no place where combat was utterly unavoidable in Fallout.

Ok. first quest - get explosives

Use of persuasion and intimidation = no one dies

Getting to the ware house = a few dead thugs in the diner

The warehouse = use sneak or obfuscate and the only one who is supposed to die are those sabbat that are rigged to unlocking the doors.

I won't spoil more for anyone, but use your brain Spaz, the main plot can be done without anything that would make it a bloodbath. Of course, that's the majority of the game. The end is totally different, I'll give you that.

Oh and about fallout, I said *almost* not utterly. Even when you begin it takes a bit of effort to dodge the rats. While doing areas without any combat is possible, it takes a bit of effort and careful character design.

it's the style of combat--the twitchy, action-y combat--that makes it an action RPG for me

I didn't know that the way the combat is conducted is what makes the definition ring with true tones. I would say the intensity and lack of diversity in other areas.

 

[HanoverF]

Yeah, no one said nix the endless respawn, but some testing twerp did pipe up that 'turn base suXx0rs, go pause n play'?

I think the system doesn't work

 

[Spazmo]

From Hollywood onwards, the entire main plot is just combat. I agree that the game is real good early on, but it suffers badly towards the end.

As for the action RPG thing, this is an oooooold debate. In a proper RPG, your character is fighting, not you. The action RPG name doesn't imply a lack of freedom and character choices, but it does imply action style combat.

 

[dojoteef]

Actually it's wakasashi, and yeah ninja's didn't really use katanas. They were actually much more of an underground movement and as such didn't have access to more "typical" weapons (unless they were samurai by day), since the common folk weren't allowed weapons. Katanas were too large to hide, though the tanto and wakasashi could be hidden in the folds of a ninjas clothes. Also, katanas were too large for close quarters fighting, which is supposedly one of the things ninjas excelled at.

They made weapons of their own design, and practiced with each other to perfect the use of those weapons. In that way, if they ever did have to fight samurai, they could catch them unaware.

Mainly though, ninjas stayed out of sight. That was what made ninjas so "mythical". They would hide until the proper moment, fulfill their mission and leave. They weren't great warriors or anything like that. They relied heavily on stealth tactics, shock, and fear. They even had the "ability to disappear". They had concocted a powder that they could throw into a group of enemies that would temporarily blind them and allow the ninja to escape.

Some of the more interesting ninja weapons were the claw like weapons that the ninja had. They could block an incoming katana attack with the weapon (which was worn on the palm side of the hand) and it looked like the ninjas were simply able to withstand bladed attacks since they could actually reach out and grab a katana using those shuko (as they are called), also adding to the mystique. They could also use the weapons to help scale walls, and of course maim enemies.

 

[Jinxed]

From Hollywood onwards, the entire main plot is just combat. I agree that the game is real good early on, but it suffers badly towards the end.

SPOILER

It starts with the Sabbat. The only thing that you have to fight at the Giovanni mansion are zombies and the boss... Zombies aren't any challange at all. Most of them can be passed by. I'm going to hax my character someday and see if you cannot talk the bosses in this game out of their way, could prove interesting.

And after the Sabbat, You have 2 things that need to get done and none require combat. Although the second and LAST part could prove tricky. But still nothing that makes it total combat game. Of course, then it becomes a Max Payne clone and I doubt anyone could disagree.

Combat is not the only thing that could decide what a game is, Spazmo. If you made an excellent combat system and put it into Diablo instead of what they had would it become a full fledged RPG? I don't think so, neither is TOEE which does bare the backbone of a real RPG (unfortunetly, just bones without any flesh)

I agree, the combat IS more action oriented, but saying that Bloodlines is an ACTION RPG is a wrong statement. The combat is more action, the rest is normal isn't it? Bear in mind that improving feats does go a long way. The amount of knockback, the damage and the aim is improved as you spend more points on ranged so this is a healthy representation in first person perspective. The only way to to lessen the "action" element is to make it turnbased.

In Hollywood, the majority of quests don't require combat, only the main plot one takes you to the sewers and that's about that. (the cemetery has 3 options) 3/4 of this game can be done without combat so I cannot really understand where you are coming from.

 

[Spazmo]

You're right about the actiony-ness of the game starting later, but you can't deny that a big chunk of the main plot is heavily combat. You can sneak past the monsters in the sewers, sure, but sneaking sucks and it's still not a proper alternate route.

Action RPG is a dirty word, I guess. I'll concede the point because the design of Bloodlines is in line with a 'full' RPG (quality of design notwithstanding), but you can't deny that the game's combat would be at home in an action game.

And I call ToEE a dungeon crawler RPG.

 

[Jinxed]

The sewers are the only place that you can't do anything about. But that's not the evil thing about them. The thing that puts the B in BAD is that they are a maze and a boring one too. Nothing wrong with *interesting* combat locations. The sewers are just utterly boring.
Still, less combat stuff than in Arcanum. I think the Monkey Maze is one of the most shitty locations I've ever had the displeasure of playing through.

Yeah, the combat in Bloodlines was made with action in mind. Right now with 10 ranged I'm a walking execution squad. Last time I visited *SPOILER* The Society of Leopald I sneaked all the way around, this time, I wiped out everyone there.

More on the subject of Bloodlines faults - The Giovanni Mansion. Probably the most lacking of all the locations in vampire. Half finished. There's some weird stuff going on inside and no way to do anything. I remembered reading that Vampire was finished and was put on the shelf until hl2 gets done, that was a lie. Kinda like the last locations in TOEE.

*SPOILER* When I made a deal with the demon in Chinatown to kill the hunter, I couldn't complete it that way, if she died, I would fail the quest. What's worse, after the demon was dead, I could still talk to the guy in the red dragon who was stuck in the same dialog from the fish market. and EVEN worse when he got shot, he was unkillable.

The hunter left but her sword stayed behind and her greeting in Japanese when I enter the ramen shop. Some kind of script voodoo definetly going on there.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

You can sneak past the monsters in the sewers, sure, but sneaking sucks and it's still not a proper alternate route.

How is it not a proper alternate route? It's a different way of doing the level, right? Besides, I can't even begin to imagine how much money I've saved by not having to constantly stock up on bullets or blood packs. Now, I'll be honest and admit that I've made my fair share of kills, but that's stealth kills, not actual combat. By using sneak this time through, I've left myself open for at least another play through with a combat monkey so I can just let loose. So, I don't think sneaking sucks and I definitely don't think it's not a proper alternate route.

 

[Jinxed]

3 Funny things I noticed:

Beckett shapeshifts right in front of an old bum in the warehouse. Probably means he has a lot of Masq points to spare.

Fat Larry deals right in front of a cop. What the fuck? His location was much better in the tech demo.

Old Tech demo music still present outside 2 or more bars in the game even though different music is played inside.

 

[dojoteef]

You can sneak past the monsters in the sewers, sure, but sneaking sucks and it's still not a proper alternate route.

How is it not a proper alternate route? It's a different way of doing the level, right? Besides, I can't even begin to imagine how much money I've saved by not having to constantly stock up on bullets or blood packs. Now, I'll be honest and admit that I've made my fair share of kills, but that's stealth kills, not actual combat. By using sneak this time through, I've left myself open for at least another play through with a combat monkey so I can just let loose. So, I don't think sneaking sucks and I definitely don't think it's not a proper alternate route.

Yeah, the problem is in the fact that it screws over those who choose to focus solely on social skills. They have no recourse because stealth won't work if they haven't put skills into it. Neither does combat for the same reason. I will admit that stealth is a viable alternative, but it isn't for all characters. Most games have this flaw, so I don't know if I would blame Troika specifically.

The way I see it, is no matter what method you choose to play the game in, you should still be able to have a fun equally balanced experience. I don't know why that isn't possible in most RPGs though; it could be that it takes too long to balance, I'm not sure.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Yeah, the problem is in the fact that it screws over those who choose to focus solely on social skills. They have no recourse because stealth won't work if they haven't put skills into it. Neither does combat for the same reason. I will admit that stealth is a viable alternative, but it isn't for all characters. Most games have this flaw, so I don't know if I would blame Troika specifically.

Okay, this is the Vampire Masquerade universe we're talking about here. I don't care how goddamn good of a talker you are, it's not going to stop that zombie from trying to eat your brains.

Now, granted, I agree that social skills should get you out of some combat situations, but I just don't see that as a possibility when it comes to the likes of the Warrens or Cemetery. Plus, the Sabbat could give a fuck less about what you have to say. If you're not Sabbat and you're in their way, then it's kill or be killed.

I've talked my way through enough quests in Bloodlines that I can honestly say the social/sneak/combat ratio seems fairly decent to me. However, I just now got access to Chinatown, so we'll have to see.

Again, I'm not saying that social skills shouldn't be useful for getting out of combat. I'm just saying that there are times, especially in settings such as this and fantasy, where it's just not going to happen.

"Excuse me Mr. Bodyless Head With Two Arms, please tell me a little bit about yours- gackarrrrgh!!"

 

[Jinxed]

Well, I urge people to play as a high persuasion/intimidation character. Bear in mind, the last 2 Troika games worked differently with dialog. Options would pop out only if your character met specific criteria that was required. So people who played first time around and didn't meet a requirement jumped to a conclusion that it's not possible.

It's not like Fallout where you could try nonetheless and a roll would determin an outcome in predefined ranges. That's not the way it works here. If you meet a requirement the option will appear without chances of failure. Only a couple of situations don't work this way in which you try and fail anyway. (first plot quest, attemp to intimidate)

Anyway, a lot of choices are left only for specialized characters, with requirements of 9 or 10.

I just finished Lacroix's Tower. It's 10x easier than the Chinese Temple.

Otaku, I agree with Spazmo about sneaking. If I understand him correctly, sneaking in certain areas just doesn't feel right. When I finished ToEE without killing a single enemy I felt similiar.

 

[dojoteef]

Like I said, I don't blame Troika for it, since it seems to be something common to all RPGs. With some characters I would wager that it actually would be possible to complete all quests using only social skills (and disciplines that can be enacted during speech). For example I think a Ventrue could easily pull that off. He could convince people to do the job for him, he could use Dominate to convince people, he could just simply be persuasive or seductive, etc. If he needed to he could probably even intimidate the person with a bluff.

As for zombies, they go down fairly easily even if you don't have much combat skill, the problem is with the ridiculous amount of respawning. The thing is, if they modified the quests based on your character sheet, it could easily make it possible to cater to your characters unique way of dealing with things. Anyway, that's just the way I look at it.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Well, all I have left to say on the matter is the fact that these guys were working with an engine they had little familiarity with. One has to admit that this is a good step in the right direction from TOEE, and I am sure their next product will shine even more. It's a great game with some problems, none of which has really affected me to the point of disliking the game. Maybe minor disappointment, but not dislike.

Jinxed: The only problem I have with the sneak feature is the glaringly obvious bug that once you have your sneak at a certain point, it's like activating a notarget cheat. Enemies will walk right up to you and around you. That needs work. I will admit that in the Warrens, there were spots where I shouldn't have gotten away with sneaking, but I can only think of two off the top of my head and that involved patrolling creatures in brightly lit areas with no other way around them.

 

[Eclecticist]

I actually hope that Troika use the Source engine again for their next project now they have some familiarity. It could turn out very well.

 

[Mendoza]

Plus Valve might have managed to fix all the bugs with source by then. Besides, it'd be a shame to have jiggletech and only use it for one game.

 

[Sol Invictus]

If Troika makes a sequel or expansion to Bloodlines I hope it has a lot less combat and a lot more dialogue.