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Interview MCA's World of Choices & Consequenses

VentilatorOfDoom

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Tags: Chris Avellone; Obsidian Entertainment

<p>Vault Dweller had the opportunity to get Magnificient Chris Avellone to <em>share his innermost thoughts on choices &amp; consequences with the less fortunate. Some concepts and ideas can only be described as "really fucking cool" and are a must-read for any developer.</em></p>
<blockquote>
<p>4. You've talked before about creating a good story with reactivity. Care to elaborate?<br /><br />You can pull a character through a story by having events unfold around them, or you can make it clear that events are happening because of what the player did - and *specifically* what the player did. Part of the fun of a world and a story is how your presence is causing changes in it, seeing those changes play out, and being made aware exactly how you caused those changes. Being an agent of change, the spark lighting the fuse, or the butterfly wings that spark the hurricane on the other side of the world is pretty gratifying. It's much different than the player being passively subjected to a changing story they are having no effect on - or if it's obvious the events that are changing have nothing to do with their actions.<br /><br />This is probably putting me out of a job, but it's what I believe and what I've noticed from both computer game GM'ing and pen-and-paper gamemastering: Special casing reactivity I've found is generally a waste of time compared to giving the player a series of game mechanics and encounters and see what happens. This is an example I've used before, but as a narrative designer, I can't compete a player's story about how their dwarf fighter with 3 hit points exploited a crack in the canyon terrain and the limited range of motion of orcish axes to lure 20 orcs to their death one by one. Simple, but that's a legend being made right there. Once you add reputation systems, faction systems, and more, and the range of player-made stories increases without narrative designers having to do much work at all.</p>
<p>...</p>
<p>7. Let's talk about diplomatic solutions to problems. Since all conflicts can be resolved with violence, which is the legacy of the olden days when violence was the only way to solve anything in RPGs, how do you feel about the "talk your way through the game" path? Can it actually compete with the "kill 'em all" path in terms of excitement or is it, at best, a side dish, something to do between the killings? If yes, what are the challenges of getting it done right? If no, why not?<br /><br />It caters to a small % of players, and those players find it meaningful if that's the power fantasy they want. To cite the best example, in Fallout 1, I think it's pretty ego-boosting to point out the flaws in your adversaries' master plan so much that he suicides after talking to you. I really can't be more of a talking badass than that. It is difficult to implement a speech/sneak path, and the main obstacles to it are many, so here's my opinion on how to approach it:<br /><br />The speech path should present more than a skill check challenge - there needs to be some other obstacle associated with it. I usually veer toward exploring conversations (asking about back history, reading lore, discovering evidence to a criminal case), exploring the environment (discovering an enemy encampment, learning a secret path into a fortress, discovering a rival caravan is already sending an emissary to scout a new trade route), or being able to draw logical connections between two topics... as an example, without it being given as a quest objective, realizing that the local historian who's obsessed with the Montaine family tree would be interested to learn of an exiled Montaine living in a remote city, and then returning to tell the historian that is a simplistic example of paying enough attention to a conversation and its topics and remembering who might be interested in that information... but again, this involves the player remembering and knowing who to speak to next. We sometimes do this within a dialogue tree - if a player has enough presence of mind to return to a previously-asked dialogue node once they've obtained information learned from a later node is an example of a speech-based challenge.<br /><br />We did something a little different with the Fallout 3 pen-and-paper game and also with Alpha Protocol - in the Fallout PNP game, we allowed players with a high Speech to gain a little mini-dossier psychology profile of the temperament and the psychology of the person they were speaking to either by purchasing them or speaking to them for X period of time - what the NPC's triggers were, what they were uneasy about, what they got angry about, etc, and then once the player had that information, then they would attempt to use those triggers (without the need for a speech check) to manipulate a situation. As an example, when we were playing Boulder in Fallout PNP, Josh Sawyer's character Arcade got a dossier on the leader of the Boulder Dome, enough to realize that the leader would almost always refuse any request or become unreasonably angry if a comment was phrased as a challenge to his authority or any hint that he was managing the situation improperly - but almost any other comment that built up the leader's skill as a manager or drew in a compliment about the progress he made would almost always generate a favorable response, and then Josh could choose how he wanted the target to respond by structuring his comments and debates accordingly. If he wanted to make the leader mad and lose face in front of his followers, he knew how to do it - if he wanted to make the leader agree to a course of action, he knew how to do that, too, but there wasn't a "speech check" to win the conversation, only hints on how to manipulate it. Alpha Protocol did this a bit without a speech skill - if you gathered enough info on an opponent (intel), it began to give you a picture as to what attitudes (aggressive, suave, professional) and mission approach (violent, stealth, diplomatic) they respected and what they didn't, and the player could use that to navigate the conversation to achieve a desired result, even if that result was something that might seem unfavorable at first, like making the person angry.<br /><br />I always liked how the old Fallouts had the empathy perk that forecasted whether a topic would make someone mad or not, but you never knew if that might be a good thing or not unless you really paid attention to the NPC's outlook and philosophy. Was making X person mad a good thing or not?</p>
</blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2055.0.html" target="_blank">Read the interview here.</a></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Spotted at: <a href="http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2055.0.html">ITS</a></p>
 

sgc_meltdown

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More and more I keep finding that I prefer to see developers talking less about their approach to improving rpgs and actually doing it.

George Lucas can give a two hour interview on his decisions his crew had to make and their trials when crafting the cgi space battles in the star wars prequels but at the end of the day the end result is barely worth making a youtube reaction video over.

Similarly, a novel's worth of good intentions and ideas are nothing against a PR announcement saying game such and such is going to have X and Y changed.
 

Raapys

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sgc_meltdown said:
More and more I keep finding that I prefer to see developers talking less about their approach to improving rpgs and actually doing it.
They're not the ones designing the games anymore though. Marketing will tell them skill checks and a 'diplomatic' way of finishing the game is bullshit and a waste of resources, and so we just end up with one game after another designed solely by what sells the most copies. Which is, or at least so they think, combat, combat and last but not least, combat. Well, that and some romance/sex for good measure.
 

IronicNeurotic

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sgc_meltdown said:
More and more I keep finding that I prefer to see developers talking less about their approach to improving rpgs and actually doing it.

He IS doing it though?
 

sgc_meltdown

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IronicNeurotic said:
He IS doing it though?

Insomuch as a veteran method actor is advancing cinema by lending his interpretation of a mutant hillbilly rapist to the nuanced script of Deathgorge Canyon III - Killpocalypse
 

JaySn

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. . . To Avalon, the primary reason people play games is to stroke their engorged ego?

Man, I think I need some Liquid Courage, with a slice of lemon.

--

(Empathy perk was a bit of a disappointment for me. It was pretty clear that telling someone to bend over and pucker up might result in them riddling you with holes. I don't recall there being a time where an enemy's anger could be put to constructive use. (Gizmo, perhaps? That one-on-one fisticuffs with the Kaun leader?*)

*corrupted sectors. Misaligned partitions.


And this zany idea that, perhaps, the dialogue elements should be based on the ability of the player to make a logical connection (say extorting T. Druggy in Megaton with knowledge obtained from McIrish's terminal?) . . . :(
 

sgc_meltdown

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JaySn said:
I don't recall there being a time where an enemy's anger could be put to constructive use

if you start going over the fact that you have a handle on creating a jet antidote with myron all the correct answers will be shown to anger him. In later conversations he will still have his angryface on.

Not that this matters seeing as how fallout party member deposition has zero stages between "I am your scripted meatslave" and "I'm attacking you now".
 

Callaxes

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sgc_meltdown said:
IronicNeurotic said:
He IS doing it though?

Insomuch as a veteran method actor is advancing cinema by lending his interpretation of a mutant hillbilly rapist to the nuanced script of Deathgorge Canyon III - Killpocalypse

I believe that you've just caused an inflation in the use of metaphors.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Re: MCA's World of Choices & Consequenses

VentilatorOfDoom said:
The speech path should present more than a skill check challenge - there needs to be some other obstacle associated with it.

:lol: So much for the "bwaaaaaak player skill has no place in rpgs bwaaaaaaaaak* bullshit so many of you faggots feed me. Looks like even Avellone approves of my own take on Role Playing GAMES to the detriment of traditional codex wisdom.

Problem Codex? :troll:
 
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Raapys said:
They're not the ones designing the games anymore though. Marketing will tell them skill checks and a 'diplomatic' way of finishing the game is bullshit and a waste of resource

I have a hard time buying that when you're talking about a "designer" who's co-owner of the company he works for, a company with a slam dunk philosophy no less.

EA would be making isometric turn based rpgs if there was money in it too, but I'm sure Obsidian's heart is in the right place...
 

GarfunkeL

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How does VD come up with these questions? He has a full time job, he runs ITS, he works on AoD, has a family and somehow, maybe while driving, he ruminates on such things so he can create a great MCA interview. :salute:

Oh and the obligatory
9d516a302fe7b7da8a0c62517511492085da701e.gif
 

deus101

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Re: MCA's World of Choices & Consequenses

Mastermind said:
VentilatorOfDoom said:
The speech path should present more than a skill check challenge - there needs to be some other obstacle associated with it.

:lol: So much for the "bwaaaaaak player skill has no place in rpgs bwaaaaaaaaak* bullshit so many of you faggots feed me. Looks like even Avellone approves of my own take on Role Playing GAMES to the detriment of traditional codex wisdom.

Problem Codex? :troll:

He's not talking about minigames you fag.

What he's talking about is still within the confines of RPG/setting/gameworld mechanics, triggers depending on what rout you take and how you apply what you learnt.

Since when was being analytical regarded the same as being able to move your mouse real fast?
 

sgc_meltdown

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Re: MCA's World of Choices & Consequenses

deus101 said:
Since when was being analytical regarded the same as being able to move your mouse real fast?

play the synapse-firing minigame to improve your character's intuitive powers and unlock the puzzle
 
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Raapys said:
They're not the ones designing the games anymore though. Marketing will tell them skill checks and a 'diplomatic' way of finishing the game is bullshit and a waste of resources, and so we just end up with one game after another designed solely by what sells the most copies. Which is, or at least so they think, combat, combat and last but not least, combat. Well, that and some romance/sex for good measure.

Yeah, New Vegas is full of romance/sex opportunities and so very little ways to play the game without resorting to combat at every turn :roll:

What saddens me is that even after so much talk, we still got Alpha Protocol where you get these courageous C&C experiments but only as a supplement to the rest of the game which is popamole console corridor shooter.

Anyway, my faith is restored after FNV (I've never had faith in Obsidian tbh) After FNV, I have some faith in Obsidian now.
 

skuphundaku

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Codex 2012 Codex 2013 MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2 My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Re: MCA's World of Choices & Consequenses

deus101 said:
Mastermind said:
VentilatorOfDoom said:
The speech path should present more than a skill check challenge - there needs to be some other obstacle associated with it.

:lol: So much for the "bwaaaaaak player skill has no place in rpgs bwaaaaaaaaak* bullshit so many of you faggots feed me. Looks like even Avellone approves of my own take on Role Playing GAMES to the detriment of traditional codex wisdom.

Problem Codex? :troll:

He's not talking about minigames you fag.

What he's talking about is still within the confines of RPG/setting/gameworld mechanics, triggers depending on what rout you take and how you apply what you learnt.

Since when was being analytical regarded the same as being able to move your mouse real fast?

Sorry, but Mastermind is right. If you do allow player skill in your game, quick reflexes or quick thinking are just as much of a skill as being able to piece together various pieces of information. Of course, they're not the same skill, but they're all skills nonetheless. You can call it skill, ability or whatever else you like, that doesn't matter, the point still stands.

After all, you can never eliminate player skill from the equation because being able to complete an RPG with a suboptimal build is a result of player skill, and you can't seriously claim that nobody out there plays suboptimal builds on purpose... or does ironman runs... or does solo runs in party-based games etc.

As RPG players got over the notion that RPGs are all about grindy combat or uber-loot and accepted choices and consequences as one of the core requirements, if not THE core requirement, of a good RPG, so will they get over this concept that, somehow, player skill is something to be shunned and that RPGs absolutely need to be all about character skill and not at all about player skill. How you integrate the player skill in the game in a meaningfull way... well, that's an entirely different story that I don't think many people have asked yet. And many people will keep not asking it unless they get over this mental block that RPGs are just about character skill.
 

Raapys

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villain of the story said:
Raapys said:
They're not the ones designing the games anymore though. Marketing will tell them skill checks and a 'diplomatic' way of finishing the game is bullshit and a waste of resources, and so we just end up with one game after another designed solely by what sells the most copies. Which is, or at least so they think, combat, combat and last but not least, combat. Well, that and some romance/sex for good measure.

Yeah, New Vegas is full of romance/sex opportunities and so very little ways to play the game without resorting to combat at every turn :roll:

What saddens me is that even after so much talk, we still got Alpha Protocol where you get these courageous C&C experiments but only as a supplement to the rest of the game which is popamole console corridor shooter.
It's quite simple. New Vegas was little more than an expensive mod; the engine, the world editor, the graphics, the UI, the quest system, all of it was already done by Bethesda. They just had to make a world out of it, similar to what the modders did with Nehrim for Oblivion. This makes it a cheap project compared to Alpha Protocol, for instance, where they had to do pretty much everything from scratch and thus couldn't take much risk. There's also the publisher difference; Bethesda vs Sega. So yeah, not exactly any mystery there.
 

deus101

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Re: MCA's World of Choices & Consequenses

skuphundaku said:
deus101 said:
Mastermind said:
VentilatorOfDoom said:
The speech path should present more than a skill check challenge - there needs to be some other obstacle associated with it.

:lol: So much for the "bwaaaaaak player skill has no place in rpgs bwaaaaaaaaak* bullshit so many of you faggots feed me. Looks like even Avellone approves of my own take on Role Playing GAMES to the detriment of traditional codex wisdom.

Problem Codex? :troll:

He's not talking about minigames you fag.

What he's talking about is still within the confines of RPG/setting/gameworld mechanics, triggers depending on what rout you take and how you apply what you learnt.

Since when was being analytical regarded the same as being able to move your mouse real fast?

Sorry, but Mastermind is right. If you do allow player skill in your game, quick reflexes or quick thinking are just as much of a skill as being able to piece together various pieces of information. Of course, they're not the same skill, but they're all skills nonetheless. You can call it skill, ability or whatever else you like, that doesn't matter, the point still stands.

After all, you can never eliminate player skill from the equation because being able to complete an RPG with a suboptimal build is a result of player skill, and you can't seriously claim that nobody out there plays suboptimal builds on purpose... or does ironman runs... or does solo runs in party-based games etc.

As RPG players got over the notion that RPGs are all about grindy combat or uber-loot and accepted choices and consequences as one of the core requirements, if not THE core requirement, of a good RPG, so will they get over this concept that, somehow, player skill is something to be shunned and that RPGs absolutely need to be all about character skill and not at all about player skill. How you integrate the player skill in the game in a meaningfull way... well, that's an entirely different story that I don't think many people have asked yet. And many people will keep not asking it unless they get over this mental block that RPGs are just about character skill.

:decline:


(Just to get this out of the way, RPG hybrids such as FPSRPG(actionrpg's) are really out of the scope here, i have a tremendous love for System shock, and i would gladly call them RPG's but that paticular genre and similar uses different implementations where certain pieces are not relevant when we try to discuss the basis of an RPG, which is the analogue PnP kind)

That said...QUAKE SKILLS HAVE NOTHING TODO WITH AN RPG!

I have no fucking idea were Mastermind got his generalization, and its pretty much irrelevant.
But since I',m part of the hivemind i just have to call him a fag and get on with it.

The problem is that just because they both defined as "skills" does not mean they can be regarded as the same(but i guess its this kind of logical shortcuts that made him a conservative).

Being Analytical is the same skill you use to PLAY these games, whether you are good at building character and using combat abilities.
Tha same personal skill Avalone was pointing towards.

Then mastermind comes in an argues that the codex is against the very challenge and gameplay factors we play these games for.(cuz were dumb løl)
And that includes the roleplay aspect, nobody mentions it because there never have been a CRPG that implement RPG roleplay as it should be(though thats a problem with technology) without the fags going "DARK AN EDHY STORYTELLING/EVERYGAME IS AN RPG", but Avalone as i see it is trying to tacle parts of that problem( if he can managed to implement Roleplay with character knowldge, without the player being able to stumble over the solutions that is).



But overall Mastermind 8/10, but only because i took the bait.



Christ this must be some incoherent fuck, but post im gonna do anyway.
 

GarfunkeL

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No, he's not right. It's still the character skill that matters since the player cannot type in that stuff. What MCA is talking about is a way to expand the speech-option, to make it more complex - instead of the player only estimating handful of dialogue choices and then hoping that his speech-skill will get him through, he now has to put in far more legwork.

It would be similar if combat was just auto-resolved with one button and a dev would say "hey, we could actually make it so the player has to equip his party and can then move them around in the combat and make decisions, sure it's more work but it would make the combat more engaging and rewarding".

Ie, natural path in the evolution of RPGs:
1. Get dialogue in-game
2. Get dialogue options that enable/disable stuff
3. Get skill that affects these options
4. Build content and mechanics around dialogue, so that it's not just one skill check

Minigames, like lockpicking, are usually worthless because they either circumvent character skill, ie good player can pick any lock anywhere any time no matter how bad his character is. Or the char skill determines whether you can even try it but then the rest is usually laughably simple so the whole thing is little more than annoying time sink (all minigames in ME and ME2).

As to your claim about player skill vs character skill - I find it entirely baffling. The whole point of an RPG is that you take a character that isn't you and then pit that character against the game through the mechanics of that RPG. If you want to dilute the character portion of that equation, go ahead but don't try to persuade other people that it's still an RPG. There's room for games between TOEE and Quake but this oh-so-modern trend to push all RPGs into that middle ground or even all the way next to Quake is both frustrating and annoying and it doesn't help that twits come around trying to preach that it's somehow a good way to go or something.

So shut the fuck up and stop encouraging Mastermind. See, this is why he is the most ignored person on Codex.
 

Kraszu

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Don't try to persuade me that TOEE is a RPG, you make your own decision in combat rather then having them done based on intelligence, and wisdom of the characters.

Gothic I, and II actually did the player vs character the best, there are enemies that are simply impossible to kill you will deal 0 dmg to them at low levels so you can't overcome it with your skills.
 

Roguey

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A lot of interesting words from a developer of shooters and hack and slays. Reminds me of the last eight or so years worth of words.
 

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