Interview MCA's World of Choices & Consequenses

[Johannes]

People, stop quoting Mastermind in your replies to him, makes the ignore a useless feature, plz thnx.

You contradicted your statement from the first paragraph that says that character skill rules supreme: you move from simple checks based on character skill to complex mechanics based a little, if at all, on character skill but much more on player skill.

While it may seem so, not really. It's merely fleshing out the system around that skill check. Yes, it takes player-"skill" but I'd prefer to keep that definition to strictly mean reaction speed and eye-hand coordination, the usual way player skill is defined in sports and arcade/action games. Yes, chess and war/strategy/RPG-games require skills too but of more cerebral nature.

That's an idiotic way to define what player skill means, certainly not any usual definition. Why equate it to just mouse accuracy, when skill intuitively encompasses much much more?

 

[JaySn]

RPGs should start adding and making use of a tactical skill for characters. It would determine how much freedom they have in the actions they can take in the turn based combat of true RPGs. If a character was completely lacking in the skill all they could do is move as fast as they could towards the closest enemy in a straight line and use the most damaging attack/ability that they possess.

[Intellignece] So you're intelligence should have a greater purpose than acting as a modifier for the number of skill points one can gain per level or as a simplistic speech check?

 

[Azrael the cat]

He IS doing it though?

Insomuch as a veteran method actor is advancing cinema by lending his interpretation of a mutant hillbilly rapist to the nuanced script of Deathgorge Canyon III - Killpocalypse

Excellent analogy, good sir.

 

[Visbhume]

This is probably putting me out of a job, but it's what I believe and what I've noticed from both computer game GM'ing and pen-and-paper gamemastering: Special casing reactivity I've found is generally a waste of time compared to giving the player a series of game mechanics and encounters and see what happens. [...] Once you add reputation systems, faction systems, and more, and the range of player-made stories increases without narrative designers having to do much work at all.

I agree.

I wouldn't mind playing a RPG without levels and very few skills (or none at all) where most of the character development takes place through the stuff you get to own, and the relationships you build with other NPCs and factions (of course, ownership of stuff has itself a social aspect).

Text-only dialogue systems would facilitate the melding of special-case reactivity with those general game mechanics, since text, unlike full voice acting, can be tailored on the fly.

 

[MetalCraze]

So when Avellone will make the game that isn't shit instead of just talking crap only Codex nerds care about (while not implementing any of it in his Alpha Protocol crap lulz)?

 

[janjetina]

There is a lot of debate about semantics in this topic an a lot of needless walls of text are thrown around. Physical player skills, like reflexes and coordination, are not a part of RPG genre. That is what most people consider when they say that player skill doesn't belong in a RPG. On the other hand, player's analytical skills are the thing RPG (also Strategy and Adventure) engages. Without the engagement of player's analytical skills, relying solely on character skills, RPG would cease being a game and become a simulation, and a player would cease being an active participant and becoming an observer.

In an RPG, skills and stats should serve to constrain gameplay, but a player needs to apply his analytical skills within those constraints. A well designed game should be able to provide logically consistent game world and enough options to provide challenge. Considering Avellone's example, the character should meet certain requirements (INT, Speech, CHA etc.) to get the mentioned persuasion options, but then it is up to the player to use his in-game knowledge to choose the appropriate option (according to his intentions). Of course, each choice should be followed by logical consequences.

 

[J_C]

What the fuck?

 

[mysterious-stranger]

So when Avellone will make the game that isn't shit instead of just talking crap only Codex nerds care about (while not implementing any of it in his Alpha Protocol crap lulz)?

KOTOR 2 says hello

 

[Kraszu]

There is a lot of debate about semantics in this topic an a lot of needless walls of text are thrown around. Physical player skills, like reflexes and coordination, are not a part of RPG genre. That is what most people consider when they say that player skill doesn't belong in a RPG. On the other hand, player's analytical skills are the thing RPG (also Strategy and Adventure) engages.

Why on the other hand? Combination of player, and character skill in G2:Notr does require more analytical though then combat in FO. It doesn't feel like you are overcoming your bad stats with your skills, you feel weak, and in need of increasing your char skill. I don't see any convincing argument why G2:Not combat make it less of a cRPG game. The combat in Gothic does provide with possibility of having to adopt the way you fight for different enemies in more creative ways, then one character TB combat does.

 

[GarfunkeL]

That's an idiotic way to define what player skill means, certainly not any usual definition. Why equate it to just mouse accuracy, when skill intuitively encompasses much much more?

Uh, no. It's exactly the usual definition: motor skills. Most games require far more motor skills than analytical thought. RPGs are the other way around.

I don't see any convincing argument why G2:Not combat make it less of a cRPG game.

It's an Action RPG because player motor skills play a significant part of the gameplay. Which is just fine.

The combat in Gothic does provide with possibility of having to adopt the way you fight for different enemies in more creative ways, then one character TB combat does.

And who claimed that F1's combat is the best version? It certainly isn't but it is an example of "pure" RPG combat, where player motor skills do not play part.

I was just railing against the idea that ARPG-way is somehow a good direction for all RPGs to take. Maybe I misunderstood something.

 

[Roguey]

The last project MCA really created was KOTOR 2. He came in late during AP and he had no Lead Role in the FNV Base game.

So whats exactly your point?

That he's nothing but talk? Consider how you recruit Cass in NV for example: With 50 speech she tells you Jackson won't let her leave the outpost, so you have to go over to him and he'll tell you to clear out some giant ants before he'll agree to let her go (or you can just kill him). But if you have 75 speech, you can skip all of that and Jackson doesn't say a word. It's a win button that lets you skip content (banal, time-padding go to x and kill y content of course). Now who was it who wrote Cass again? And there are plenty of other examples in there as well.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

The last project MCA really created was KOTOR 2. He came in late during AP and he had no Lead Role in the FNV Base game.

So whats exactly your point?

That he's nothing but talk? Consider how you recruit Cass in NV for example: With 50 speech she tells you Jackson won't let her leave the outpost, so you have to go over to him and he'll tell you to clear out some giant ants before he'll agree to let her go (or you can just kill him). But if you have 75 speech, you can skip all of that and Jackson doesn't say a word. It's a win button that lets you skip content (banal, time-padding go to x and kill y content of course). Now who was it who wrote Cass again? And there are plenty of other examples in there as well.

1. Read what he wrote again. Then realize you're a complete retard.

2. Part of this is the Dialouge Systems fault who shows speech checks. Yet he had nothing to do with the decision to make it so.

 

[Roguey]

1. Read what he wrote again. Then realize you're a complete retard.

Okay!

The speech path should present more than a skill check challenge - there needs to be some other obstacle associated with it.

Shut the fuck up Avellone, you lying snake-oil selling sack of shit.

2. Part of this is the Dialouge Systems fault who shows speech checks. Yet he had nothing to do with the decision to make it so.

In that case it's still a win button, only now it's a win button that doesn't let you know it's a win-button. Cosmetic change, doesn't address the underlying issue at all.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

How does VD come up with these questions? He has a full time job, he runs ITS, he works on AoD, has a family and somehow, maybe while driving, he ruminates on such things so he can create a great MCA interview.

Yeah, weird. How does he do it? I admit that a bit of envy wraps my heart.

 

[Radisshu]

That's an idiotic way to define what player skill means, certainly not any usual definition. Why equate it to just mouse accuracy, when skill intuitively encompasses much much more?

Uh, no. It's exactly the usual definition: motor skills. Most games require far more motor skills than analytical thought. RPGs are the other way around.

I agree with Johannes. Streamlining the meaning of "player skill" to "motor skills" is unnecessary.

 

[mysterious-stranger]

The last project MCA really created was KOTOR 2. He came in late during AP and he had no Lead Role in the FNV Base game.

So whats exactly your point?

That he's nothing but talk? Consider how you recruit Cass in NV for example: With 50 speech she tells you Jackson won't let her leave the outpost, so you have to go over to him and he'll tell you to clear out some giant ants before he'll agree to let her go (or you can just kill him). But if you have 75 speech, you can skip all of that and Jackson doesn't say a word. It's a win button that lets you skip content (banal, time-padding go to x and kill y content of course). Now who was it who wrote Cass again? And there are plenty of other examples in there as well.

Not Avellone, he wasn't part of the writing team of NV, only a producer, as for AP, he overhauled what had been established bar the convo system which Brian Mitsuda came up with, so much of what you see in AP is his

 

[KalosKagathos]

Not Avellone, he wasn't part of the writing team of NV

Actually, it was Avellone. An interview mentioned that he was given the character because he had written the FO2 Cassidy.

 

[CappenVarra]

How does VD come up with these questions? He has a full time job, he runs ITS, he works on AoD, has a family and somehow, maybe while driving, he ruminates on such things so he can create a great MCA interview.

Yeah, weird. How does he do it? I admit that a bit of envy wraps my heart.

Only if you assume he is really working on AoD. Thursday or it didn't happen!

Oh and the obligatory

Give the man a game to make!


Also, how about a sub-tagline: "RPG Codex: where somebody is trying to define what exactly is or isn't a cRPG, every single day since 2002". Or at least a counter on the side: "Currently active threads in which somebody is trying to define a cRPG to argue a point: 5. Total threads to include cRPG definition wannabes: 23,951. Total attempts that get it right: 0."

 

[deus101]

That's an idiotic way to define what player skill means, certainly not any usual definition. Why equate it to just mouse accuracy, when skill intuitively encompasses much much more?

Uh, no. It's exactly the usual definition: motor skills. Most games require far more motor skills than analytical thought. RPGs are the other way around.

I agree with Johannes. Streamlining the meaning of "player skill" to "motor skills" is unnecessary.

It is bloody well necessary because some retards cant fathom context in amidst of the discussion.

 

[mysterious-stranger]

Not Avellone, he wasn't part of the writing team of NV

Actually, it was Avellone. An interview mentioned that he was given the character because he had written the FO2 Cassidy.

Oh , fair enough, though it does explain why she was the only likeable character in that game

 

[Johannes]

That's an idiotic way to define what player skill means, certainly not any usual definition. Why equate it to just mouse accuracy, when skill intuitively encompasses much much more?

Uh, no. It's exactly the usual definition: motor skills. Most games require far more motor skills than analytical thought. RPGs are the other way around.

I agree with Johannes. Streamlining the meaning of "player skill" to "motor skills" is unnecessary.

It is bloody well necessary because some retards cant fathom context in amidst of the discussion.

How so? If people have trouble understanding what you mean, wouldn't it help to not invent your own meanings for words?

If I say that someone is a skilled Starcraft player, why would you intepret that as him having good motor skills, instead of him being good at winning matches of Starcraft overall?

 

[Vault Dweller]

My 2 cents on the player's skill debate.

I think it should be obvious that the player's skill is always there and that a skilled player will always play better than an unskilled one. Take DnD, for example. Your "performance" depends on your understanding of the system and your ability to select and use skills, feats, abilities, spells in the most effective fashion. This knowledge and understanding can turn an almost impossible battle (for a noob with a character with great stats) into a cakewalk (for an experienced player with a less physically impressive specimen).

Ideally a game should give the player a wide variety of combat and non-combat options, the player makes a decision based on his understanding of the situation, threat, abilities at his disposal, etc, and THEN the character takes over and attempts to succeed at whatever the player has ordered him to do. That's the line that separates the player's skill from the character's.

It's not just the motor skills. It's everything. If the player is smart enough to figure something out but his character isn't - tough luck. You can play a game, for example, with a high INT character and figure out (via your character's abilities) a way to open a secret passage, for example, or to combine runes into a high level spell. If you're playing the same game with a low INT character, this in-game knowledge should not be transferred to your low INT character automatically, it should be blocked by his stats.

So, basically, the player decides, the character acts.

 

[villain of the story]

It's a given to expect a skilled Starcraft player to have good motor skills, because that's like the minimum prerequisite to be able to play Starcraft competitively.

BUT, "player skill" has always come to mean manual dexterity (another term from way back when) anyway. If you feel so punctuative, manual dexterity will work for everyone.

 

[commie]

The speech path should present more than a skill check challenge - there needs to be some other obstacle associated with it.

Shut the fuck up Avellone, you lying snake-oil selling sack of shit.

Perhaps a more elaborate system of checks based not just on raw speech skill numbers, but also modifiers like prior reputation, factional support, how many critters and people you murdered(depends on a roll to simulate if the character you are talking to has heard of your exploits or witnessed them), even appearance coupled with a small luck roll would make it more effective. As it is, a speech skill check is far too simplistic in operation.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

1. Read what he wrote again. Then realize you're a complete retard.

Okay!

The speech path should present more than a skill check challenge - there needs to be some other obstacle associated with it.

Shut the fuck up Avellone, you lying snake-oil selling sack of shit.

2. Part of this is the Dialouge Systems fault who shows speech checks. Yet he had nothing to do with the decision to make it so.

In that case it's still a win button, only now it's a win button that doesn't let you know it's a win-button. Cosmetic change, doesn't address the underlying issue at all.

No. Because yes it creates a challenge. In context he also refers to FO1s end challenge where you needed to pick the right options to rapefuck the master.

Naturally, again FO: New Vegas system is differently and doesn't suit itself to it. Which isn't Avellones fault or design decision.

Though, he actually STILL did it in the Conversation with the Legate (Also written by Avellone) in the end of the game. There, if you took away the skill numbers you would have to argue correctly with the Legate.

So no, he isn't lying. At all.