Interview MCA's World of Choices & Consequenses

[Kraszu]

It's not just the motor skills. It's everything. If the player is smart enough to figure something out but his character isn't - tough luck. You can play a game, for example, with a high INT character and figure out (via your character's abilities) a way to open a secret passage, for example, or to combine runes into a high level spell. If you're playing the same game with a low INT character, this in-game knowledge should not be transferred to your low INT character automatically, it should be blocked by his stats.

So, basically, the player decides, the character acts.

If such system was implemented there should be some clues to the player to avoid meta gaming. For example your char could say that he is not smart enough when he would try to put the peace's of Rune together.

The problem I have with stats like that is that they often are all of nothing, and there is often plenty of meta gaming, and inability to know how useful each stat will actually be, with combat you can read the rules, know exactly how much it will improve, and you get feed back from encounters. Also when you go to place where the enemy is too strong for you, you will find it out, but if you talk with somebody, and you lack some option you can never be sure if designer did put that option at higher INT levels, and at what INT it will be exactly so it reduces the planning to guessing. How can you figure out how much to put into speech? How fast do you need to improve it sacrificing combat to not miss options? How can you know how to balance it?

To avoid some of those problems I would make skills related to that be set only at the start of the game. Do it with attributes, and don't change them during a game.

As for non combat gameplay, Discword Noir have a pretty nit system where you can ask people about things that you have in inventory, and clues that you had gathered. RPG games already have journals that could be adopted to that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If such system was implemented...

They are implemented. It's a fairly standard design (assuming a game is done well).

Take Fallout, for example. You know that the Master's plan is flawed, but unless your character is smart enough, the player's knowledge is useless and has no effect on the game.

 

[Kraszu]

There isn't much of it in FO, there are also other problems with speech skill that I talk about.

Also would it not be better to limit the information from player with not good enough stat when you can? He could for example read document with important information, and say that there is nothing that he finds interesting there (with lower INT). You would not get the information to solve the problem in the first place. It would make the game more interesting to replay with char with bigger INT. It is the case with speech skills, wisdom/INT in PS:T dialogues, but I am suggesting to make it more of a design rule to make it so when you can. It would also make the distinction between player, and char stats feel less arbitrary without sacrificing anything for it. You would know as much as char does, it can't be perfect but you can closer or further away from that.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Basically the choice to have a strong stat should consequently give you more related options ingame and a weak stat should be contextually felt to your character's detriment similarly

which is the point of why codex champions c&c in the first place

Current flaws of intellectual and social skill implementations:

1) Less granular outcomes compared to combat, currently you have probability of success and after that is rolled against you outright succeed or fail, there are no measured incremental outcomes between 'you convince him to give you his treasured leather pants' and 'you anger him greatly and he takes your pants' just like combat can give you critical misses, let you hit normally, let you decide to disable a limb which will decrease accuracy or drop a weapon or hit the weapon, let you start taking headshots which will have chance of blindness, more damage or instant kill.

2) Player skill versus combat skill metagaming debate. Continuing from above point of catering more to consequence of noncombat skill levels, a narrowing tier of allowable actions has to be inserted inbetween the player's and character's knowledge and perceptions. i.e. through metagaming you know the wall has a depression there with very old human blood. The character will need high perception and medical skill to get 100% success. Without perception he would not get the medical skill check in the first place. Or the player could make the conscious decision to not bother with analysis as it is a red herring and there is an urgent time limit.

Ultimately a combat engine can be universally tailored to numbers interacting with and doing things to each other and results in very satisfying and intimate consequences, something like speech has to be recognised as a skill that's used as much as small guns, then tailored to characters and situations interacting with each other and supported with a noncombat auto cross-interaction system scripted for such things allowing for prettying up with dialog or character thoughts, otherwise manual design is required and therefore economics dictates you get very little of it or that you end up synergizing skills with combat situations.

3) Continuing from the dire requirement of an emergent noncombat interaction system, detailed c&c chains and contextual player decisions has to be part of each skill aside from deciding to trigger them and the game immediately saying 'yes' or 'no'.
I think it would be interesting to see how often character skill checks are called upon in the seperate codex approved games and how much game content can been correlated to each one. As they are noncombat situations require less thinking on your toes or weighing risks like combat situations. Again this comes down to the plain lack of decision making.
Good manual design like scarcity of supplies can offset this and make utility skills like barter seem worthwhile, but in the end the hidden skill checks are still being made for you with no active decision whatsoever and you won't be using your barter skill and currency to augment your speech check against someone with low total ingame belonging values.
'Can I kill that thing this way' has now turned into 'can I use my speech this way', and right now the answer is 'no because it's not in the game'. It is akin to player being told he cannot shoot the super mutant in the groin because the designers only had time to write in the headshot or bodyshot possibilities for that encounter.


ps VD if you can reveal if AoD does any of the above differently I would like to hear about that

OH GOD WALL OF TEXT MY CHOICE TO WRITE THIS MUCH HAD A CONSEQUENCE

 

[Kraszu]

It's a given to expect a skilled Starcraft player to have good motor skills, because that's like the minimum prerequisite to be able to play Starcraft competitively.

So if player x has worse motor skills then player y, but wins 80% of the time against him due to better decisions, then you would say that the player y is more skilled starcraft player?

BUT, "player skill" has always come to mean manual dexterity (another term from way back when) anyway. If you feel so punctuative, manual dexterity will work for everyone.

Stop the bs.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Your wall of text stunned Prosper into silence.



Give meltdown a medal or something!

 

[Lexx]

Though, he actually STILL did it in the Conversation with the Legate (Also written by Avellone) in the end of the game. There, if you took away the skill numbers you would have to argue correctly with the Legate.

Which you can do with my Fallout: New Vegas mod. :> (It's really a totally different gaming experience. Much better, imo.)

Interesting to note that the mod only has 91 unique downloads. Looking at the date of when I've added it, it's a joke. It just tells me that most players don't want difficult dialogues. They want to shoot stuff and ninja-click through dialog to get back to the shooting stuff. Nothing more.

 

[deus101]

It's a given to expect a skilled Starcraft player to have good motor skills, because that's like the minimum prerequisite to be able to play Starcraft competitively.

So if player x has worse motor skills then player y, but wins 80% of the time against him due to better decisions, then you would say that the player y is more skilled starcraft player?

BUT, "player skill" has always come to mean manual dexterity (another term from way back when) anyway. If you feel so punctuative, manual dexterity will work for everyone.

Stop the bs.

No one cares about your 1337 skills take your pro-gamer culture and shove it.




"BUT, "player skill" has always come to mean manual dexterity (another term from way back when) anyway. If you feel so punctuative, manual dexterity will work for everyone."

Really..thats all that needs to be said about the issue of who said who, when people mentions player skill(manual dexterity, spasm with mouse, etc) it is allways pointed towards how actions in RPG mechanics can be successfull based on a realtime interactions.

 

[CorpseZeb]

2) Player skill versus combat skill metagaming debate. Continuing from above point of catering more to consequence of noncombat skill levels, a narrowing tier of allowable actions has to be inserted inbetween the player's and character's knowledge and perceptions. i.e. through metagaming you know the wall has a depression there with very old human blood. The character will need high perception and medical skill to get 100% success. Without perception he would not get the medical skill check in the first place. Or the player could make the conscious decision to not bother with analysis as it is a red herring and there is an urgent time limit.

Yes, it would be interesting to see world constructed by “stats rules”, don’t allowing player to “see” thing lies beyond his recognitions skill (e.g without enough int. skill, no one ever sees blood spat, not to mention to have chance to process it). Game world constructed to counteract “real” player int. versus his “played” characters int. stats, to counteract god-like point of view every player had, to blind player by not allowing him to be even aware of existence certain "check stats'able" item. But then, what kind of game it would be?

 

[Johannes]

It's a given to expect a skilled Starcraft player to have good motor skills, because that's like the minimum prerequisite to be able to play Starcraft competitively.

So if player x has worse motor skills then player y, but wins 80% of the time against him due to better decisions, then you would say that the player y is more skilled starcraft player?

BUT, "player skill" has always come to mean manual dexterity (another term from way back when) anyway. If you feel so punctuative, manual dexterity will work for everyone.

Stop the bs.

No one cares about your 1337 skills take your pro-gamer culture and shove it.

Yeah fuck those SCBW assholes, decisionmaking is for fags. Only motoric skill is real.

 

[deus101]

It's a given to expect a skilled Starcraft player to have good motor skills, because that's like the minimum prerequisite to be able to play Starcraft competitively.

So if player x has worse motor skills then player y, but wins 80% of the time against him due to better decisions, then you would say that the player y is more skilled starcraft player?

BUT, "player skill" has always come to mean manual dexterity (another term from way back when) anyway. If you feel so punctuative, manual dexterity will work for everyone.

Stop the bs.

No one cares about your 1337 skills take your pro-gamer culture and shove it.

Yeah fuck those SCBW assholes, decisionmaking is for fags. Only motoric skill is real.

He's obsessing about quantifying someones E-penis.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Game world constructed to counteract “real” player int. versus his “played” characters int. stats, to counteract god-like point of view every player had, to blind player by not allowing him to be even aware of existence certain "check stats'able" item. But then, what kind of game it would be?

A character skill defines the extent and effectiveness of the options available to the player in context.

If not being able to pickpocket a target due to lack of dexterity no matter how much a player wants to is a logical consequence, if a character not seeing and therefore not able to target an enemy out of LoS even if the player knows he will get blown away in the next turn is a logical consequence, so is a character not noticing a secret door that bypasses security due to lack of perception no matter what the player knows.

The more player metaknowledge is held an inviolable sacred right then the consequence of stats and skills will be diminished even more than uneven world design already has.

 

[Kraszu]

It's a given to expect a skilled Starcraft player to have good motor skills, because that's like the minimum prerequisite to be able to play Starcraft competitively.

So if player x has worse motor skills then player y, but wins 80% of the time against him due to better decisions, then you would say that the player y is more skilled starcraft player?

BUT, "player skill" has always come to mean manual dexterity (another term from way back when) anyway. If you feel so punctuative, manual dexterity will work for everyone.

Stop the bs.

No one cares about your 1337 skills take your pro-gamer culture and shove it.

Yeah fuck those SCBW assholes, decisionmaking is for fags. Only motoric skill is real.

He's obsessing about quantifying someones E-penis.

Learn to read I didn't say that I was good at SC. I was just pointing out the idiocy of calling somebody worse at SC more skilled in playing SC.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I find it funny that the guys who love number crunching are usually the ones who bitch about "player skill".

ffs I can't press LMB fast enough in this popamole shit

 

[sgc_meltdown]

I find it funny that the guys who love twitch gaming are usually the ones who bitch about "character mechanics".

ffs who really cares about all this nerdo shit

 

[CorpseZeb]

The more player metaknowledge is held an inviolable sacred right then the consequence of stats and skills will be diminished even more than uneven world design already has.

Yes... but I don't think its unavoidable at all. I understand, metaknowledge is “build” into human player, I know what “pickpocket” idea is, even if my character due low dex. doesn't thus I can act accordingly to my knowledge not to my character and – potentially - broke world/character rules. Metaknowledge always puts us in theater stage, as actors and spectators at the same time, we “know” but we “can't”, so we merely “act”.

I asked, how to build metaknowledge-resistant game word without bitter taste of god point of view, and I think its impossible. Only way to convince or seduce player, runs through fooling player meta-knowledge (so yes... no altar nor priests for metaknowledge).

(if we talking about the same here...?)

 

[sgc_meltdown]

I asked, how to build metaknowledge-resistant game word without bitter taste of god point of view, and I think its impossible.

Well players have taken for granted that the interface there is to tell you everything about the world, and that is true for non roleplaying games because the interface or hud is there to provide a direct omnipotent line to the player.

However for roleplaying games the interface and consequently what you know about the game world from the player's perspective should be based on the character, and the amount of knowledge the player tries to pass onto the character should be kept to a logical minimum. No need for self-restraint when the character can't, won't or doesn't know how to do it.

 

[Orgasm]

Is there anything worth reading in that interview?

 

[deus101]

It's a given to expect a skilled Starcraft player to have good motor skills, because that's like the minimum prerequisite to be able to play Starcraft competitively.

So if player x has worse motor skills then player y, but wins 80% of the time against him due to better decisions, then you would say that the player y is more skilled starcraft player?

BUT, "player skill" has always come to mean manual dexterity (another term from way back when) anyway. If you feel so punctuative, manual dexterity will work for everyone.

Stop the bs.

No one cares about your 1337 skills take your pro-gamer culture and shove it.

Yeah fuck those SCBW assholes, decisionmaking is for fags. Only motoric skill is real.

He's obsessing about quantifying someones E-penis.

Learn to read I didn't say that I was good at SC. I was just pointing out the idiocy of calling somebody worse at SC more skilled in playing SC.

He didnt he called it a minimum prerequisite, you are clinging onto some vauge notion of overall skillfullness in X game, while we are trying to explain how a specific player skill should not be accommodated in a basic RPG deffinition.

 

[CorpseZeb]

Well, yeah, I was thinking loosly 'bout some ideas.

But is this statement...

However for roleplaying games the interface and consequently what you know about the game world from the player's perspective should be based on the character, and the amount of knowledge the player tries to pass onto the character should be kept to a logical minimum.

... does contradict this statement?

No need for self-restraint when the character can't, won't or doesn't know how to do it.

I mean... for example... you need some “real life” int. to successfully play very dumb character (e.g in F2). But by doing that, you basically broke “design” being dumb. And even more, game very point is challenge players to play beyond rules, not by rules (being so smart with so dumb character). So on contrary, players "should" pass as many of their “non-game” knowledge into characters as possible. Its like reading, more you know already, more you get from lecture.

 

[deus101]

 

[CorpseZeb]

Yeah... something like that...

 

[sgc_meltdown]

well first the barbarian must be able to accurately combine the mixture into a ratio of

75% potassium nitrate
15% charcoal
10% sulfur

not to say how he would know of, attain and verify the materials

I can also say that the following night manufacturing process of c4 came to him in a shamanic dream and btw he's an idiot savant but seriously ffs.

 

[Zomg]

Whoa I thought the codex "player skills" debate died ages ago

Mastermind is on a side that had obviously won a long time ago, sorry to the argument rump

Also I think Avellone's "power fantasy" line is mostly correct but it's a little too self-deprecating. I can think of stuff like getting a "bad ending" in for example V:BL and thinking it was good because I'd run the PC as such a rat bastard. It was more like reading a book with an unsympathetic protagonist.

 

[Drakron]

Though, he actually STILL did it in the Conversation with the Legate (Also written by Avellone) in the end of the game. There, if you took away the skill numbers you would have to argue correctly with the Legate.

There is more ...

If you go with one Speech check path, the argument is the Legion cannot hold the NCR territory and will be weakened in the East.
If you go with another Speech check path, the argument is that he needs to do some "house cleaning".
If you go with Barter, the argument is the West is not self-sufficient and depends on the NCR trade caravans so it would be too difficult for the Legion to maintain it.

And if you fail a check you have to bluff your way by saying the fight was too easy and there is a trap waiting for him and the courier is only warning him because its dishonorable to win in such a way.

So yes, there is certainly a effort ...

Also there is Dead Money ... you know, I screwed up and used the Barter check with Dean and that meant he taken a dislike to me and when I found him at the Theater ... lets say he was not friendly despite by efforts to not fighting him.

Then I started again and did not take the check, meaning Dean liked me so the whole Theater encounter was completely different as he was friendly, helpful and even given me the whole sad story without I having to use the evidence I found in his safe that you need to use in order to get the story out of him if he is unfriendly.

Also Elijah dialog checks for him to come down to the Vault are about different subjects, there is even a specific ending were if you have negative reputation with NCR they team up and take over the Dam using the Cloud.