Interview Oblivion chit chat on Warcry

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

There's <A href="http://www.warcry.com/scripts/columns/view_sectionalt.phtml?site=15&id=102&colid=6611">an interview</A> type article with <b>Ashley Cheng</b> of <A href="http://www.bethsoft.com">Bethesda</a> about some things in <a href="Http://www.elderscrolls.com">Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion</a> over at <A href="http://www.warcry.com">Warcry</a>. It covers a lot of things like not following market trends and what not, size of the game, power gaming, and this:
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<blockquote>In past Elder Scrolls titles, particularly Daggerfall and Morrowind, NPC artificial intelligence has been a subject of some debate, with many gamers feeling the games were filled with generic, "cookie-cutter" NPCs. The folks at Bethesda are obviously aware of these complaints, and according to Cheng, it's been an area of focus for them. "We revamped the combat system to make it more visceral and exciting - we're re-written the animation system, too. But the biggest effort was the AI system. Radiant AI allows us to have advanced behavior on a massive scale. What other games have to script, our system just does on it's own."</blockquote>
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You know, the one thing that's always bothered me about NPC scheduling is that it's never felt any more real than NPCs that just stand around. The only difference is that you have to hunt down NPCs every time you need to talk to them. An NPC that just stands in his door is no less realistic than the NPC who brushes passed your character, the guy who's save the town a few times and who is probably injured from saving yet again, in order to pull their laundry off the clothes line.
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Thanks, <b>Mr. Teatime</b> of <a href="Http://www.duckandcover.cx">Duck and Cover</a>!
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[Screaming_life]

You know, the one thing that's always bothered me about NPC scheduling is that it's never felt any more real than NPCs that just stand around. The only difference is that you have to hunt down NPCs every time you need to talk to them. An NPC that just stands in his door is no less realistic than the NPC who brushes passed your character, the guy who's save the town a few times and who is probably injured from saving yet again, in order to pull their laundry off the clothes line.

While i agree with the principle that a scripted procedure for the day is in essence the same as static NPC's i think in practice it adds alot to the game. It goes along way in creating immersion and a belief that the world is alive - Gothic is an obvious example. There is also the potential to add depth to the character so the way they act reflects something of their personality. I can't remember if bloodlines did away with descriptive text but the level of facial animation would have allowed for it.

 

[Killzig]

hee. so instead of writing interesting characters for their npcs they're just going to have them walk around. brilliant.

 

[coaxmetal]

Nobody complained about Fallout npcs being too static, did they ?

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

It's quite a bit more sophisticated than that.

Basically you can give an NPC "packages" to do certain things. These packages can be very specific -- "At 12:00 on Tuesdays, go to the Prancing Pony, sit at this particular table, and eat some food." Or they can be generic -- "At 12:00 every day, get something to eat." When a package is generic, how the NPC accomplishes it is based on traits that are assigned to them, such as responsibility, aggression, confidence, and more. So designers have the flexibility of either specified exactly how a package might be accomplished, or letting the NPC "decide" how to accomplish it.

NPC's can have any number of packages, and packages can also be added on the fly by script. Packages can be interrupted, for example by combat situations, if the player talks to them (although if they don't like the player much they may try to get out of the conversation), or even if they run into some NPC they want to talk to. They can also be interrupted by scripts.

Packages can be scheduled to happen once, or repeat at any interval, and they can be either of a specified length or made to just end "when they're done". They can be made to kick off in specific situations.

In short, it's an extremely flexible system, and one that we have been putting a great deal of time into developing and fine-tuning for the past 2 years.

 

[Briosafreak]

While i agree with the principle that a scripted procedure for the day is in essence the same as static NPC's i think in practice it adds alot to the game. It goes along way in creating immersion and a belief that the world is alive - Gothic is an obvious example.

Yep i agree, it can bring things to a whole new level in creating a world that seems and plays more alive.

 

[xemous]

to MSFD, will I need some sort of dual processor just to run this thing or what. Sounds like your taking up a shitload of cpu cycles and dev time for this thing.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

to MSFD, will I need some sort of dual processor just to run this thing or what. Sounds like your taking up a shitload of cpu cycles and dev time for this thing.

Nah, it should run fine on mid-level PC's. Our AI system has multiple levels of processing, depending on where the player character is in relation to each NPC or creature. At the lowest levels, only the most minimal amount of information is processed, and then it's processed much less often than at higher levels. It's analogous to graphical levels of detail (LOD). And even then processing the packages doesn't take that much time -- it's not like every NPC has to re-evaluate EVERYTHING each and every frame.

 

[LlamaGod]

Yay, Bethesdas ripping off Gothic because Gothic was a ton better then Daggerfall or Morrowind, woo.

Of course, it's still Bethesda so it's gonna be some weak wanna-be sorta thing thats still REVOLUTIONARY GAME OF THE YEAR.

Gothic 3, come quicker.

 

[Screaming_life]

Nobody complained about Fallout npcs being too static, did they ?

No but they probably would now!

 

[Killzig]

no they wouldn't. did anyone complain about BL's NPCs? Not that I know of. Did they move around much? Not unless it was part of the story. They were well written characters and that's what matters. Not that the NPC knows that when he wakes up at 7 in the morning he's got to have his daily BM.

 

[Screaming_life]

no they wouldn't. did anyone complain about BL's NPCs? Not that I know of.

Well, i did!

They were well written characters and that's what matters. Not that the NPC knows that when he wakes up at 7 in the morning he's got to have his daily BM.

I agree completely, character movement is no substitute for well written characters, but nobody said it was. My initial point was that it is another opportunity to reveal something of an NPC's personality.

Often in RPG's you get descriptive text like: "character X looks you up and down in a dissaproving manner" - well if the character animation can reveal this then there is no need for the text. Likewise, if you're an ugly mofo there is no need for some text telling you that people find you repulsive because you'll see it in their reaction to you.


I would hope that Oblivion will have better characters than Morrowind, eh! MSFD?

 

[Killzig]

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on Fallout 3. It's just this PR spinning of NPC scheduling as some great 2 year project that is going to turn NPC design on its ear isn't very comforting. Hopefully, it works to their advantage and they can generate some more sales out of itand keep afloat as they are one of the few companies focusing on RPG development that isn't tanking... but I'm looking for character and story and so far I haven't seen it in any of their games.

 

[Spazmo]

They were well written characters and that's what matters.

Exactly. Having the NPC go to work in the morning, go for a beer at quitting time and then go back home to wifeyis neat, but it means jack shit if that NPC and wifey are still generic wiki NPCs with all the immersion of a search engine. It's a neat feature, and if done well it's a great thing to have in a game, but if you don't have proper NPC dialog, all that work is worthless because NPCs still won't feel like people.

And don't tell me you're 'improving the wiki' or whatever, just get rid of it. It just doesn't work. Dialog trees are the industry standard for a good reason.

 

[Greatatlantic]

Yeah, you really need to have dialogue trees for the important NPCs. I can understand why you wouldn't want a dialogue tree for every NPC, I think Aranum is the only title that comes to my mind that might have tried that. But for the people you get quests from, or the important people in a plot, you need dialogue trees. Its just that simple.

If you think wiki is a great option for the village fodder NPCs, I can go along with that.

 

[kathode]

The characters are infinitely better. The dialog system is not really a wiki, not really a dialog tree. A little of both. We'll talk more about it in the future. Somehow I find it just a little ironic to see you guys recommending "industry standards"

 

[Reklar]

It's quite a bit more sophisticated than that.

Basically you can give an NPC "packages" to do certain things. These packages can be very specific -- "At 12:00 on Tuesdays, go to the Prancing Pony, sit at this particular table, and eat some food." Or they can be generic -- "At 12:00 every day, get something to eat." When a package is generic, how the NPC accomplishes it is based on traits that are assigned to them, such as responsibility, aggression, confidence, and more. So designers have the flexibility of either specified exactly how a package might be accomplished, or letting the NPC "decide" how to accomplish it.

NPC's can have any number of packages, and packages can also be added on the fly by script. Packages can be interrupted, for example by combat situations, if the player talks to them (although if they don't like the player much they may try to get out of the conversation), or even if they run into some NPC they want to talk to. They can also be interrupted by scripts.

Packages can be scheduled to happen once, or repeat at any interval, and they can be either of a specified length or made to just end "when they're done". They can be made to kick off in specific situations.

In short, it's an extremely flexible system, and one that we have been putting a great deal of time into developing and fine-tuning for the past 2 years.

What keeps an NPC with static settings from going to the exact same places each day? Do they 'remember' where they've been and somehow alter their schedule to be more dynamic? It sounds like a cool AI system, but I guess I'm just greedy and want more details on how it works.

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

no they wouldn't. did anyone complain about BL's NPCs? Not that I know of. Did they move around much? Not unless it was part of the story. They were well written characters and that's what matters. Not that the NPC knows that when he wakes up at 7 in the morning he's got to have his daily BM.

The only NPCs in bloodlines that were not as lifeless as any morowind npcs were the quest/main NPCs. MRSmiley is talking about an AI system for the kind of unimportant npcs like in bloodlines that just walked around and had nothing to say. I'm sure the main/quest giving NPCs in oblivion will be written well (at least, hopefully).

 

[Jinxed]

I like the idea and it's not worthless, it looks to me like these are just baby steps into something greater. Of course, it's nothing to praise now and words like "never before seen immersion with NPCs going about their daily business" added to the big list of features written on the game box collects nothing but laughs from anyone experienced in the CRPG community.

I liked it in Arcanum, shopkeepers and others went to sleep allowing you to undertake a lot of thief oriented activity.

It was elaborated upon in Gothic, it was nice to see NPCs doing different things each time you saw them - but ultimetly added nothing.

 

[Khajran]

no they wouldn't. did anyone complain about BL's NPCs? Not that I know of. Did they move around much? Not unless it was part of the story. They were well written characters and that's what matters. Not that the NPC knows that when he wakes up at 7 in the morning he's got to have his daily BM.

The only NPCs in bloodlines that were not as lifeless as any morowind npcs were the quest/main NPCs. MRSmiley is talking about an AI system for the kind of unimportant npcs like in bloodlines that just walked around and had nothing to say. I'm sure the main/quest giving NPCs in oblivion will be written well (at least, hopefully).

The point of Morrowind's NPC "wiki" system, as I interpret it, was to provide some function to the hundreds of NPCS without any quests or other relevant information that normally populate RPGs. In most RPGs, they usually just have a stock one-line dialogue response, no "tree" of any sort - they're essentially scenery (in the KOTOR games, for example, they tend to be named things like "Farmer" or "Citizen" rather than being given actual names). In Morrowind, at least you can ask them where the tavern is and what they do for a living.

The downside of the system, of course, was the number of generic shared responses that you could get from all of the non-quest characters, so it'll be interesting to see what they do to improve on the system. I don't think "industry standard" is necessarily a good reason to use standard dialogue trees, though - as I recall it, the Ultima games didn't have dialogue trees, and they turned out OK.

 

[Fez]

It found it was easier to steal from and murder people when they were asleep in Gothic 2.

 

[Visbhume]

Ultima VII had NPC's with schedules AND memorable characters. I am vexed by the fact that no other RPG ever has got that combination right again. After finishing that game, I though schedules were going to become an obligatory feature in all high-profile CRPGs !

IMHO, the schedules add immensely to the immmersion in the gameworld, and can create new gameplay opportunities. The only danger I can think is that they can increase the number of idle periods waiting for something to happen / somebody to appear.

I think what is needed is some mechanism to easily skip those times. A "wait for..." or "the next day, at hour X..." feature. After all, in pen-and-paper roleplaying, the DM does not describe all moments with the same detail. CRPGs should act more like DM's, and don't force continous time. And this is already done in a small scale for rest periods and intercity travel, after all.

Come to think of it, no CRPG should force you to walk through some place a second time if nothing of interest has changed. Give the option to skip directly to the destination, and only notify me if something different and interesting happens along the way!

 

[Greatatlantic]

The characters are infinitely better. The dialog system is not really a wiki, not really a dialog tree. A little of both. We'll talk more about it in the future. Somehow I find it just a little ironic to see you guys recommending "industry standards"

If its something new, I guess I'll wait and see. However, I don't think anyone is lauding something because its an "industry standard", but because it was such a great way to do things. I think your company and your games will always be criticized if you go with out.

Just don't think you can not have dialogue trees for Fallout 3, OK. Fallout NEEDS dialogue trees. Something to bring up at the next company brain storming session.

 

[coaxmetal]

Often in RPG's you get descriptive text like: "character X looks you up and down in a dissaproving manner"

Wish there were more rpgs that actualy did that. The existence of this kind of lines hold value to me, brings up a certain taste long gone from me.

It's the fact that i must imagine certain things instead of seeing them all around, i guess. But that might be just me.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Yeah, I prefer it when an RPG gives me some more immersive text about NPC X. Wandering and having a schedule is all well and good if pulled off properly, but just give me well written and descriptive NPCs anyday over all that. And definitely pulling stuff like *looks you up and down...* is a big bonus.