Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Game News Torment Kickstarter Update #22: On Companions, Crafting, Crises and more

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,443
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Tags: Adam Heine; Colin McComb; InXile Entertainment; Kevin Saunders; Torment: Tides of Numenera

After another two month break, Torment: Tides of Numenera is back in the news with another massive Kickstarter update. The update features all three members of the Torment Triumvirate. Colin McComb writes about the game's writing processes and its companions, Adam Heine writes about the crafting system, and Kevin Saunders writes about "Crises", which are...well, you'll see. As said, the update is huge, but I'll try to quote the most interesting parts.

On companions:

We’re tweaking, nudging, and adjusting the companions even now. One of our initial companion ideas has been changed to a major NPC role, replaced with another concept that better serves the narrative and party dynamic. Also, Chris Avellone turned in a proposal for his companion, and as you might expect, the companion has so much excellent potential for the game that we’re thinking of... well, I don’t want to spoil anything. Let’s just say this particular companion is really cool and effortlessly overturns one of the tropes of RPG companions. Which is to say: it’s great, and fits nicely into our roster.

Speaking of which, I put together a starting relationship chart for our companions. You can have up to three in your party at a time and they’ll all make their appearances fairly early in the game. We’ve been thinking about how they’ll interact with the Last Castoff and each other and talking about ways to improve the party’s overall dynamic... and, of course, ways to make the companions’ relationships with one another more compelling. We want to keep the process organic, rather than systematic, so having this starting point on how the characters interact will help push creativity and drive some narrative decisions further down the road.

For instance, we don’t want to have the Cold Jack simply count the number of times you’ve disagreed with her in dialogue before she suddenly becomes a (bigger) jerk. We want to have her relationship with you evolve. Perhaps she and another companion have important matters that they need your help with right away—and if you pick his over hers, she’ll remember that... and that will impact your interactions with her later in your story. Regardless of your relationship with your companions, during combat you’ll have complete control over them. But whether they stay by your side throughout your journey may be a different matter.​

On crafting:

We've leveraging our item design, and thus crafting, to support both the narrative and gameplay. I'll focus on the systems side for now. Here's the basic idea. There are items, which include both mundane objects and numenera relics. Most items are useful by themselves, but some are components that can be assembled with other items to confer additional effects, or disassembled to use the components elsewhere.

For example, you may have a disruptor device (component) that, when attached to a sword, adds +10 damage whenever it is activated. Or you have a bounder crystal (component) that, when attached to armor, teleports anyone who strikes the wearer; when attached to a weapon, it randomly teleports the target a certain distance away when they're hit; when attached to ordinary gloves, it enables this ability on an unarmed punch.

But the relics of the prior worlds are not so easily understood. That disruptor device might have been a sparkplug for an unimaginably complicated transdimensional engine, or the bounder crystal might have been some kind of child's toy (why would a child play with such a thing? That's the fundamental mystery of the Ninth World). The point is, you can never fully understand this stuff, and although you can figure out enough to make it work for you, there will almost always be unintended side effects and quirks.

Side effects is our term for semi-predictable consequences. The specific combination of items and components—based on what they do and what they're made of—determines what side effects a device acquires.

[...] Through lore skills or trial and error, you can eventually determine beneficial combinations, or at least combinations that work for your character build and/or the particular device you've put together.

Quirks, on the other hand, are random, unpredictable, and sometimes detrimental. A quirk might cause the device to make a loud noise everytime it's used; or cause the device to graft onto the user's body, so the character can't unequip it until it has been disassembled (also making disassembly more difficult); or it might occasionally knock down all characters within a set range, whether friend or foe; or strange fish appear in the air and swim around you, harmless, but killed by area effects.

A device can acquire a quirk when it is assembled. The chances of acquiring a quirk are increased by the quantity and power of the items you are trying to combine. The chances are decreased with training in the appropriate skills, access to good crafting tools and/or workstations, and applying the Numenera concept of Effort. An inexperienced, untrained character could slap a component onto their mundane sword with only a small chance of a Quirk appearing, but if the same character tried to cobble three components onto a piece of transdimensional armor, they'd find the resulting hack had one Quirk for sure and maybe even two (assuming they were able to successfully assemble it at all, of course).
As for the Crises, well, Kevin's explanation is so long that he had to put it in a separate document on Google Docs. Basically, a Crisis is a kind of puzzle-like combat encounter, which also includes non-combat elements and uses the full range of a character's skills. The document provides an example of such an encounter, and it sounds totally awesome. No word yet on whether said encounters will be turn-based, phase-based or real-time, although viewed in this context, it doesn't seem like it matters that much.

Besides all that, the update also recaps the latest news on Wasteland 2, Numenera, the novellas, etc. As always, I highly recommend that you read it in full.
 

undecaf

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
3,517
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Good read. Crafting and Crises sound very intriguing concepts.
 

oldmanpaco

Master of Siestas
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
13,609
Location
Winter
Crafting in Toment:
lipstickpig.jpeg
 

Endemic

Arcane
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
4,326
inverting trope shocker sounds like a sex term on urbandictionary.

What I'm saying is Avellone did plenty of that in PS:T, like with Grace and the "brothel". No surprise that he would bring back a similar concept for ToN.
 

~RAGING BONER~

Learned
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
420
I don't usually spread my cheeks so willingly for the bliss of anal ecstasy, but I have seriously high hopes for this project...it combines 2 things i really enjoy: Bizarre sci-fi and story fag rpg.

when the time comes I hope it is the golden cock of glorious incline that slips in smoothly and gently as opposed to the spiked mace of treacherous decline that devastates my colon in the middle of an unsuspecting night.
 

Castanova

Prophet
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
2,949
Location
The White Visitation
For instance, we don’t want to have the Cold Jack simply count the number of times you’ve disagreed with her in dialogue before she suddenly becomes a (bigger) jerk. We want to have her relationship with you evolve. Perhaps she and another companion have important matters that they need your help with right away—and if you pick his over hers, she’ll remember that... and that will impact your interactions with her later in your story.

You're still implementing arbitrary quantitative triggers to govern how a relationship with an NPC evolves. Sure, one is based on your actions and one is based on your words but in the end it's still guesswork. Oh, Cold Jack is materially angry at me now... I suppose it must have been that time that I took care of that other dude's quest first! Or wait-- was it one of those other times she seemed annoyed at me that truly mattered?

Also, this Quirk system sounds like hardcore save-scum material.
 

Raapys

Arcane
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
4,960
You're still implementing arbitrary quantitative triggers to govern how a relationship with an NPC evolves. Sure, one is based on your actions and one is based on your words but in the end it's still guesswork.
Kinda like in the real world, you mean?
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I think what he's trying to contrast with Bioware. So in Bioware you have a certain dialogs that come up over time and you make choices. The order and specific dialogs will always be the same no matter what choices you make until a certain point, where it branches. In Torment, it sounds like it's going to branch earlier and more often.

I could be wrong though.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,800
The randomization in the crafting system is an automatic failure. Thus spoke Zawyerthustra.
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
You're still implementing arbitrary quantitative triggers to govern how a relationship with an NPC evolves. Sure, one is based on your actions and one is based on your words but in the end it's still guesswork.
Kinda like in the real world, you mean?

What does the real world have to do with a video game system?
That's the problem though. Character interactions and storyfocused games aren't the best fits for systemic approach. They are closer to books in a way. That"s why they are always heavily scripted.
And remember, when there is a "systemic" function to companions like the innfluence in Bioware games, people complain that it feels unnatural and you an metagame the hell of it. "I killed her mother, but then i bought her gifts and she likes me now"
 

Castanova

Prophet
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
2,949
Location
The White Visitation
You're still implementing arbitrary quantitative triggers to govern how a relationship with an NPC evolves. Sure, one is based on your actions and one is based on your words but in the end it's still guesswork.
Kinda like in the real world, you mean?

What does the real world have to do with a video game system?
That's the problem though. Character interactions and storyfocused games aren't the best fits for systemic approach. They are closer to books in a way. That"s why they are always heavily scripted.
And remember, when there is a "systemic" function to companions like the innfluence in Bioware games, people complain that it feels unnatural and you an metagame the hell of it. "I killed her mother, but then i bought her gifts and she likes me now"

And? The point remains -- characters change depending on certain things you do to them but not others, with no logic behind it besides what the designer/writer wanted. So, saying "we improved upon Bioware-style relationships with NPCs through XYZ" what they're really saying is "we have Bioware-style relationships but with a few more arbitrary triggers."
 

Raapys

Arcane
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
4,960
You're still implementing arbitrary quantitative triggers to govern how a relationship with an NPC evolves. Sure, one is based on your actions and one is based on your words but in the end it's still guesswork.
Kinda like in the real world, you mean?

What does the real world have to do with a video game system?
But that's just the thing; they're trying to emulate a system which reflects the real world. In the real world, people like you, hate you, feel neutral towards you, etc. That's easily represented by a disposition counter. You then modify that counter based on your actions towards the character, and those actions' effects on his/her relationship with you is decided by the person who wrote the character in the first place, i.e. the person who knows the NPC best.

So where exactly are they going wrong, in your opinion? I see how sometimes they may weigh those actions' effects strangely, like putting too little weight on something and too much on something else, but that's not actually a problem with the system itself.
 

nihil

Augur
Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Messages
490
Location
Sweden
Project: Eternity
You're still implementing arbitrary quantitative triggers to govern how a relationship with an NPC evolves. Sure, one is based on your actions and one is based on your words but in the end it's still guesswork. Oh, Cold Jack is materially angry at me now... I suppose it must have been that time that I took care of that other dude's quest first! Or wait-- was it one of those other times she seemed annoyed at me that truly mattered?

What's wrong with that? I don't think all reactivity has to be easily traceable to its exact sources. That would be boring, in fact. The important thing is that if you let someone down, help someone, or fuck someone over, there is a good chance you will see a consequence later on. But it will only ever work if you're actually put into interesting situations with interesting characters and interesting choices, of course.

Also, this Quirk system sounds like hardcore save-scum material.

Not if they take measures to prevent or mitigate save-scumming. Forcing quirks on the player that he/she has to work around, cope with or even learn to use for good sounds like it could be fun, as long as they are (a lot) more creative than "miss half your attacks".

I think everything in this update sounds really cool. Especially crises, though.
 

hiver

Guest
Companions design ideas sound very good.

I would just add this:

the usual setup of these situations is
1. "companion wants something" - player provides it - companion reacts positively.
2. "Companion wants something" - player does not provide it - companion reacts negatively.

How about adding another flavor to the mix?

Such as "Companion wants something" - player provides - companion comes to understand the old saying "beware what you wish for, because you might get it".

or vice-versa, - player doesnt provide or fulfill that wish and companion comes to understand it was a better solution. -

After some time, naturally, maybe after some other events unfurl later on.

I only suggest this as a possible addition to the usual simplistic design of these matters, applied only where it would fit narratively - in order to increase the diversity and organic feeling of these issues.


Crafting looks great. Im all for quirks and surprising side effects and their combinations. If you can pull it off it will be great.

The only possible problem i can foresee is that you spend too much time on this - inventing quirks and side effects for every single item or numenera in the game, which i dont think is necessary.
Some items and numenera should just do what they do. (maybe just increasing a chance for a quirk or a side effects when cobbled or fashioned with other, more... wild items because, well... they were never intended to be cobbled or fashioned or fused with other items in the first place, especially those from other eras and civilizations)

I also dont think we should be able to identify all quirks and side effects on the items - before we use those and discover there is some quirk or side effect.

Even if we have the highest possible ..er... identification skill, since that doesnt really fit with the main theme and idea of strange, long gone and mysterious civilizations and technology that is like magic.




Crises

very nice concept and i approve with the idea that a "pacifist play through" does not need to avoid all combat.
In fact, before reading i already thought to object to any idea of a "pacifist" play-through as the only possible non-lethal option. I find that abhorring. More like a hippie play-through really.
Violence is sometimes the right and sometimes the only answer.
Like in self defense or in defense or your loved ones. For example.

Furthermore - violence does not need to be lethal - therefore non-lethal path can and should include violence.
Instead avoiding it entirely and basing all of itself on bloody persuasion and or cunning and other such... skills.
That is completely fake and horrible idea.

We all know there are people who do not respond to or change their intentions to anything but violence.
People who think shying away from violence is a weakness - which they interpret as a signal for attack - basically and generally speaking.
And there are people who you can talk to, convince them to your side of the argument - who then proceed to the the same fucking thing they did before as soon as you turn your back.
(example would be persuading a child rapist or similar psychopath that what he is doing is wrong)

Such things are true, such things are real - and they should be sprinkled through the game. Lest it all look like some horrible, puerile, teenage romantic fantasy garbage where teh player always can make everything all right and great and beautiful.

And if you include such moments, on carefully chooses specific places - it will only make the whole game better and deeper.



Her silver eyes had mocked them, their faces
distorted and reflected in her mirrored gaze, and so they said that she could certainly investigate.
Nice.


There was just one catch: I couldn’t use violence to stop the attacks. I’d have to find another way to draw those attackers
away from the shields—something about psionic reverberations of intent that would weaken its power.
I found the shield. I found the attackers. And I found that they don’t react well to strangers pushing them into a crackling
shield of force.
In fact, they react violently. That’s why I’m running. Maybe I should have tried talking first.
well, pushing someone with a force shield IS violence.
maybe such setups could be more specific and with more detailed explanations from those that demand specific behavior?


And looking at the second example of Crises.. it seems to me you guys should reconsider what the word violence really means. I think something like "destructive violence" vs. "defensive violence" or "lethal vs non-lethal violence" would better serve your needs.

of course... this would only make sense if there is to be any non-lethal skills and options in the game at all.

Which there should be, to avoid these horrible simplifications of themes, options and the whole game with it.
because a setup like this forces a player into a Red Tide whenever you use "violence".


which isnt any different then those games with simplistic, idiotic "morality counters" we would all like to avoid.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
"How about adding another flavor to the mix?
Such as "Companion wants something" - player provides - companion comes to understand the old saying "beware what you wish for, because you might get it".
or vice-versa, - player doesnt provide or fulfill that wish and companion comes to understand it was a better solution. -
After some time, naturally, maybe after some other events unfurl later on."

Not new. Not original. Has been done. Repeatedly. Next.
 

Lady_Error

█▓▒░ ░▒▓█
Patron
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
1,879,250
:takemymoney::takemymoney::takemymoney:
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom