Game News The Coles Return to Kickstarter with Hero-U Mk. II

[Crooked Bee]

Tags: Corey Cole; Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption; Lori Cole; Transolar Games

Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption is back on Kickstarter, with the funding goal of $100,000. Since Corey and Lori Cole, creators of the legendary Quest for Glory series, first kickstartered the game back in November 2012, the project has had nothing but hard times. Initially envisioned as a 2D tile-based game, Hero-U ran into programming issues, had key team members leave the project, and in November 2013, the switch to 3D characters was announced. The September 2014 update then revealed the move to full 3D scenes as well as summed up the evolution of Hero-U's art style:

Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption has gone through many changes in art direction. Originally we envisioned it as a 2D top-down “dungeon crawl” game in the style of MacGuffin’s Curse. We upped the ante on the art by bringing down the camera for an isometric look, but still using tiles to build the images. Then we made it look more like a classic Sierra game, but still isometric. Since then, the look of the game has continued to improve and evolve. Earlier this year I announced that we have abandoned 2D animated characters in favor of full 3D characters modeled by Concept Art House. We have been using a mixture of 2D and 3D props and furniture, with the code going through contortions to make the 2D props look 3D.

Then along came Chris Willis, former Sierra artist and 3D specialist. Chris has done an amazing job modeling 3D scenes that duplicate the feel of JP’s painted backgrounds. As a result, we are moving farther and farther away from the concept of using tiles to create our scenes. Each scene is now a unique piece of 3D art.​

Hero-U: 2012 and now

As a recent (backer-only) update from May 7 disclosed, about half of the money spent on programming "went to work that proved unusable by team members who later left the project." The switch to 3D also necessitated working with new artists, programmers and modelers, which obviously entailed further costs. Furthermore, however, even the initial amount of Kickstarter funding Hero-U received was not really enough to fund the game fully in the first place. Already in October 2013, the Coles had to take a loan and cut the team's salaries to fund the development:

Lori and I decided to self-fund the game by means of a personal home-equity loan. We will use that to pay our living expenses so we no longer need a salary, and we will fund other costs out of our "pocket". Some say this is a big risk – We might lose our home. We see it as much less of a risk than promising a bestseller that we can't guarantee. Several of our developers have also agreed to defer some or all of their contract income until after we release Hero-U.​

This is also confirmed again in the May 7 update:

Lori and I are personally covering all expenses beyond the crowd-funding amounts. In fact, we’re literally betting our house on the project - Since we have no income from the project, we are using a $150,000 home equity line of credit to cover Hero-U development and pay our living expenses. We are completely committed to finishing Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption and making it a game that players will love.​

At least the dedication is there - a less dedicated developer would have abandoned the project already; I just hope they do not lose their house in the end. In the May 7 update, the Coles blame "programming issues" for the changes Hero-U's art and gameplay went through. I do believe them on that, and the September 2014 update explains that in more detail; however I do not think that is the only reason. As Lori Cole's blog post from October 2014 shows, one of the reasons why Hero-U has been through so much trouble is that, right from the outset, the developers didn't really have a precise, fleshed-out vision of what style of game they wanted to make, what it would look like, and how much money they would need for that.

In any case, after a very, very bumpy road, Hero-U has a brand new demo - and a brand new Kickstarter campaign:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/transolargames/hero-u-adventure-role-playing-game

Why a Second Kickstarter?

It is unusual for the same project to raise funds on Kickstarter twice, but it is not unusual for a game to need additional funding. We have talked to many adventure game developers, and nearly all of their projects went over budget. They have either absorbed the costs themselves or obtained venture capital. We chose not to seek outside funding because we want Hero-U to be a game of, by, and for our many heroes. Kickstarter is where we began, and we would like this to be a wholly crowd-funded game.

In October 2012, we had very little to show, but many amazing fans pledged to support our vision. We now have so much more to share. Check out the game art examples here, and try the combat and game play demos for yourself! If you like what you see, please contribute to this project. We will use the funds to finish developing the game, add new art and music, and polish everything to a quality level where all of us can be proud of the game we made together.

What Happens Next?

We will have a fully playable version of the game by late 2015. The actual release date will depend on the length of the beta testing and game polish phases. What happens after that? If Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption is successful, we plan to make several sequels with new dialogue, character classes and skills, story, art, and music.

In the meantime, we will use the funds from this Kickstarter to "fill in the corners" and make every aspect of Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption immersive, fun, exciting, and beautiful. We want to add even more art, create additional 3D environments, and make sure Hero-U is strong in every way you like to play adventure and role-playing games.​

A lot of people are understandably bound to be put off by this entire second Kickstarter thing. On the other hand, the Coles do have their dedicated fans as well, and as one of those I'll chip in another $20 myself. So, we'll see how this one fares.

Two things are clear, though: good project managers they are not, and kickstarting the same game twice is a bad tendency, however legitimate the reasons. Also, the Coles say they "have talked to many adventure game developers, and nearly all of their projects went over budget." However, the two recent Quest for Glory-inspired adventure games, Heroine's Quest and Quest for Infamy, were both made on a much lower budget. Granted, those were 100% "retro" in terms of graphics, resolution, etc. But did anyone seriously want flashy graphics or a fully 3D game from the Coles?

Again, the Kickstarter is this way and the demo is available at http://hero-u.com/press/ if you want to give it a whirl.

 

[CyberWhale]

Take the role of a Hero and help him escape from the Development Hell.

 

[karnak]

They should've learned from a real development professional like Cleve Blakemore.

 

[Fizzii]

Also, the Coles say they "have talked to many adventure game developers, and nearly all of their projects went over budget." However, the two recent Quest for Glory-inspired adventure games, Heroine's Quest and Quest for Infamy, were both made on a much lower budget.

To be fair, you could technically say that both of these games went over budget because the working budget (~$25 and ~$63K respectively) did not cover the number of hours of labour to actually develop them. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of adventure games went over budget during development.

It is a shame that they have run into budgeting issues, but it really shows the impact of not having a tightly knit team where some key members are not able to see things through. From what it sounds like, the current team is solid, so if they had those people on board to begin with, they probably wouldn't be in this position.

Still, I'm curious to see how this KS pans out, and might consider making a pledge for beta access.

 

[Shevek]

Wow, a home-equity loan. Well, if they are dedicated enough to do that, they will certainly want to see this through. They get my cash.

 

[Sulimo]

Betting your house on a niche game seems like a bad life decision. And a kickstarter to finish funding a previous kickstarter, that's odd. I wonder how long it will be before people kickstart a project to prepare kickstarting their project. "Invest 10 dollars and get your say in the backer rewards we will hand out!"

 

[MRY]

It looks like they're well on their way -- $27,500 already! -- and for their sakes, I hope it works out. Whatever else one might say, there is no denying the joy that QFG brought to many people's lives, including mine. I still think the first game comes the closest to a P&P RPG in feeling like you have an incredible variety of things you can do but within and outside of formal rules. As someone within a quasi-Depression-Era attitude toward finances, the idea of taking out a HELOC to fund a project is mindblowing; it's a real risk they're taking on, and I'd hate to see it blow up on them.

That said . . . ugh. All that time and money and effort simply to setle upon Playstation-era 3D graphics with awkward texture seams and gliding animations? To me, the wonder of the QFG games arose from a number of things, but art was a big part of it. I don't understand why they would adopt this style. While it's true beyond any doubt that HQ and QFI relied upon people working for substandard pay, I'm sure the Coles could've gotten dozens of volunteers. I am 100% sure, for example, that Victor Pflug would've done art for them for a song, and I'm sure that's true of most of the AGS / retrogamer community. Heck, I have no idea what the budgets are on Daedelic games, but they can't be that much more than $650k (what the Coles will have as a budget if they hit their funding goal for this).

Even the writing seems kind of flat, and the design doesn't really show any of what I think of as QFG (namely, bespoke environmental interactions) -- it looks much more like a traditional RPG where things are handled programmatically. Ah well.

Also: "In November of 2012, we raised over $400,000 through Kickstarter toward the development of a top-down 'rogue-like game with story.'" I'm senile, but that is not the pitch I remember.

Sulimo I think Penny Arcade did a comic strip about that.

--EDIT--

So this is what they had teased the game would look like:

Spoiler

 

[aratuk]

I am leaning toward giving them money, even though I don't want a cornball Harry Potter bootleg.

 

[Bumvelcrow]

I was initially angry about being asked to hand over more money for a game that no longer resembled the one I backed. Well, I still am a little angry but it's hard to deny that they're trying their hardest. Given their history though I think it would be a case of throwing good money after bad. I'm such a heartless person...

 

[Infinitron]

Also: "In November of 2012, we raised over $400,000 through Kickstarter toward the development of a top-down 'rogue-like game with story.'" I'm senile, but that is not the pitch I remember.

I don't remember them ever using the term "rogue-like" either, but the game was a top-down tile-based thing, which is at least visually associated with the genre. So maybe they're now basically admitting that's what it would have been like.

 

[V_K]

It might've been just a pun.

 

[Aeschylus]

Interesting bit of insight posted by Corey Cole regarding SCI on the KS comments, for those who are geeky about that kind of stuff (me):

The "brilliant system" at Sierra was basically a stripped-down version of Lisp along with libraries of classes for features common to the games such as Room, Actor, etc. The brilliancy was in those classes rather than in SCI itself. (SCI was brilliant in that it did lots of work in a ridiculously small amount of memory).

Today Unity does everything that SCI did, but all of the adventure game classes need to be written. Also displaying something like the score is much more difficult, as it has to use a layer and follow some other rules. What I did not know (and all of the other ex-Sierra developers who are doing or have done Unity projects funded here on Kickstarter, was how much it would take to recreate all those adventure game classes and allow game scripting under Unity. We've already used more than a programmer-year just creating and integrating a scripting language.

Here's what the Score code looked like in Quest for Glory 2 - It's equivalent to a C printf function call and just put some text on the screen. Of course, under the sheets were a font loader, a text-to-graphics converter, and many other pieces.

(doit) was called once per game cycle, which I think was 10 times a second on a fast system under SCI. 10 fps is considered terrible these days. I try to make the game run at 30 fps on any hardware. Action games expect 60 fps.

(instance statLn of Code
(method (doit str)
(Format str "__Quest for Glory II:__Trial By Fire__[%d of %d]"
score possibleScore
)
)
)

 

[MRY]

What I did not know (and all of the other ex-Sierra developers who are doing or have done Unity projects funded here on Kickstarter, was how much it would take to recreate all those adventure game classes and allow game scripting under Unity. We've already used more than a programmer-year just creating and integrating a scripting language.

If only there had been some kind of pre-existing engine for such things, think of what they could have accomplished in that time!

 

[Morkar Left]

Also: "In November of 2012, we raised over $400,000 through Kickstarter toward the development of a top-down 'rogue-like game with story.'" I'm senile, but that is not the pitch I remember.

I don't remember them ever using the term "rogue-like" either, but the game was a top-down tile-based thing, which is at least visually associated with the genre. So maybe they're now basically admitting that's what it would have been like.

Actually it was my impression from the first kickstarter that it would turn out as some kind of Dungeons of Dredmore with good dialogue and some puzzles. Would be kinda fitting with their kind of humor, too by choosing a rogue as a main char. It was only around mid-kickstarter that they turned the vision more torwards the adventure aspect to please more the oldschool QfG-fans.

Seeing it from that perspective it's pretty clear that they couldn't deliver the game in time with the planned funding goal. The new engine is way more ambitious and I would say the gamedesign as well. If they managed to pull it off they will have timeless ready-made engine/editor to work with on future projects, too (like Shadowrun Returns).

Another 20$ spent on them and so far it looks good for the funding with already 29.571 $. Really hope they make it.

 

[Corey Cole]

MRY ref

All that time and money and effort simply to setle upon Playstation-era 3D graphics with awkward texture seams and gliding animations?

Ah, if only we had a Playstation-era budget. But yes, we do have technical problems in the demos and will try to resolve them all before releasing the game. The seams and gliding drive us crazy too. At least we've managed to improve the art since the original 2D demo.

oasis789 All will be clearer in the first update when I talk about add-ons and upgrades. For the latter, back at the $10 level, but actually pledge the difference between your old tier and the new one. For add-ons, back at any level and add enough to your pledge to cover the add-ons. We'll probably use BackerKit; they also allow you to change add-ons after the campaign closes.

Fizzii

To be fair, you could technically say that both of these games went over budget because the working budget (~$25 and ~$63K respectively) did not cover the number of hours of labour to actually develop them. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of adventure games went over budget during development.

Yes, that's exactly right. A game made by a group of friends can even be "free", but there is a lost opportunity cost if they're working on the game instead of drawing a salary. Last time around, someone complained that we were asking too much, and mentioned a game made for $30K. So I checked wikipedia, and discovered the project involved four people full time for 3-1/2 years. That's a $1,430,000 game, not a $30,000 one. (Ok, $730,000 if they all only made $50K/year because they aren't working in the SF Bay Area.) $50K is the minimum for any developer supporting a family.

We're paying everyone on our team except ourselves, and that adds up quickly. (Our personal expenses add up quickly too - mortgage, food, etc.). Three team members have opted to help by deferring their payment until after the game makes money. If it never does, I'll pay them out my own shallow pocket.

 

[SniperHF]

Corey Cole

Not sure if you have the option or not, but I think the options for new backers should be listed first on the rewards. People linking them together will be more aware of what to look for but new people need to see that first option as "BUY THE GAME".

I'm not a repeat backer but I can select and pledge for the $20 level "for second time backers". I'm sure this will cause confusion later. Especially since that $20 isn't the same price as a pledge for just the game.

 

[DeepOcean]

Corey
Is the game more focused on the RPG stuff: loot, combat, dungeon crawling or more on the adventure stuff: puzzles, dialog, exploring?

Do the dungeons mix adventure style gameplay and RPG style gameplay or when you go on dungeons is RPG combat time and when you go on the habitable parts of the university is adventure time?

I noticed that on the combat prototype demo, there is some enviromental interaction on dungeons like you grabbing bottles on wine racks and using them as ranged weapons. How interactivity with the enviroment play on combat? Can you close doors to stop enemies from swarm you? Can you drop candle holders and set something on fire to kill some enemies? Can you drop chandaliers over enemies? Can you use rocks to block holes in the wall where rats are comming from? Is adventure style enviromental interaction for the combat more complex than on the combat prototype?

I liked you can use traps on the combat demo. What are the options beyond the basics of trading standard attacks with the enemies?Do the enemies have special attacks that cause status effects on you like poisoned? Shawn has special attacks?

What made you choose for 3d areas and 2d props instead of going full 2d? Budget?

Are you planning puzzles more like old time puzzles that required more effort or the puzzles are more of the acessible kind that is so much fashion these days?

I loved on your games where you could accomplish objectives on different ways, I know Shawn is a rogue he is too unqualified to be a mage and not serious enough to be a warrior but do you have the option of stealing the rat king cheese instead of killing all the rats in the way? Is stealth just a press button to win like on plenty RPGs or there is more involved? Maybe some adventure puzzles for you to rob the rat king cheese while he lays fat and snoring on his bed? Maybe some sleep pills on the rat warriors wine to make them take a nap if you want to be a rat pacifist?

I know you probably want to answer all of this on updates but those were a few doubts I had playing the demos.

 

[MRY]

Ah, if only we had a Playstation-era budget. But yes, we do have technical problems in the demos and will try to resolve them all before releasing the game. The seams and gliding drive us crazy too. At least we've managed to improve the art since the original 2D demo.

If you had told a 12-year-old me that one day I'd trade messages with no less than Corey Cole, I'd have collapsed on the spot. If you told the 16-year-old me that it would come after I'd posted a snide Internet comment, I'd've figured, "Yeah, sounds about right." Present-day me feels a little guilty, though.

I do have to say that as a fan, I'm nervous about this project -- nervous, mostly, because what should have been an opportunity for you two to triumphantly reenter game development sounds like it's become a quagmire that has put your assets at jeopardy. That is certainly not how Kickstarter is supposed to work!

I would hope that, at some stage, you'd reach out for support from your fans in non-monetary ways. For example:

$50K is the minimum for any developer supporting a family.

That is true for a US full-time developer who, as you say, is supporting a family on his or her game salary. But the Internet is full of people who would work for less -- for free even -- for the opportunity to be a part of one of your projects. I'm fairly sure that, for example, Jane Jensen just nodded regally and Phoenix Online swore an undying oath of service. I'd have to think that if you'd asked Blackthorne and his crew of hardbitten QFG-like warriors, they would've done the same for you. Probably still would today.

Obviously, it all depends on the game you want to make, and the way you want to make it, and the options you want at the backend. And I can imagine that herding a bunch of fly-by-night amateurs would be exasperating for veterans like you guys. (Although it sounds like at least some of your team are of that sort!)

 

[Corey Cole]

Corey Cole

Not sure if you have the option or not, but I think the options for new backers should be listed first on the rewards. People linking them together will be more aware of what to look for but new people need to see that first option as "BUY THE GAME".

I'm not a repeat backer but I can select and pledge for the $20 level "for second time backers". I'm sure this will cause confusion later. Especially since that $20 isn't the same price as a pledge for just the game.

I don't have the option of changing the reward order - They are sorted by price.

That said, I chose the prices very carefully. We intend to sell the game at $29.95 retail, call it $30. People who backed our project in November 2012 took a big risk, so they get the best "deal" of getting the game for $20. People who back for the first time in the new Kickstarter will pay $25, still $5 under the retail price. It's just a small gesture of thanks.

The $20 two-time-backer-only tier is intended to bridge the gap for people who backed at the $20 level the first time and now want to move up to the $50 tier that offers a hint book, soundtrack, art book, and beta test privileges. By pledging $20 more, or $40 total over the two campaigns, they will get the same rewards as new backers who pledge $50. The tier was $35 in the first campaign, but did not include beta access - In fact, I added that to this tier at a backer's suggestion.

Anyway, that's the logic I used, and why the $20 second-time backer reward comes before the $25 first-time backer game reward.

 

[Corey Cole]

Corey
Is the game more focused on the RPG stuff: loot, combat, dungeon crawling or more on the adventure stuff: puzzles, dialog, exploring?

Do the dungeons mix adventure style gameplay and RPG style gameplay or when you go on dungeons is RPG combat time and when you go on the habitable parts of the university is adventure time?

I noticed that on the combat prototype demo, there is some enviromental interaction on dungeons like you grabbing bottles on wine racks and using them as ranged weapons. How interactivity with the enviroment play on combat? Can you close doors to stop enemies from swarm you? Can you drop candle holders and set something on fire to kill some enemies? Can you drop chandaliers over enemies? Can you use rocks to block holes in the wall where rats are comming from? Is adventure style enviromental interaction for the combat more complex than on the combat prototype?

I liked you can use traps on the combat demo. What are the options beyond the basics of trading standard attacks with the enemies?Do the enemies have special attacks that cause status effects on you like poisoned? Shawn has special attacks?

What made you choose for 3d areas and 2d props instead of going full 2d? Budget?

Are you planning puzzles more like old time puzzles that required more effort or the puzzles are more of the acessible kind that is so much fashion these days?

I loved on your games where you could accomplish objectives on different ways, I know Shawn is a rogue he is too unqualified to be a mage and not serious enough to be a warrior but do you have the option of stealing the rat king cheese instead of killing all the rats in the way? Is stealth just a press button to win like on plenty RPGs or there is more involved? Maybe some adventure puzzles for you to rob the rat king cheese while he lays fat and snoring on his bed? Maybe some sleep pills on the rat warriors wine to make them take a nap if you want to be a rat pacifist?

I know you probably want to answer all of this on updates but those were a few doubts I had playing the demos.

Ok, that's a complicated set of questions... but great ones!

Dungeons mix adventure and role-playing style play. In fact, we think of them as closer to tabletop role-playing than to a typical CRPG. The turn-based combat and ability to avoid most encounters supports that. For example, knowing my way around the wine cellar in the prototype, I needed to capture a clip of fighting the Proach for the video. Instead of fighting my way through, I used stealth to sneak past the first two Dire Rats, open the door, and sneak past the 3rd to the trap. Then I stealthed to the next door and to the nest with the lockpicks. Back out, around the monsters, past the Warrior Drat snarfing up a Flambe on the way, and in to meet the Proach.

If I wanted Shawn to get the treasure, he would now have to fight the Proach because it has the key he needs. Then Shawn would also have to fight the Skeletal Warrior (not hard with a Big Boom) because trying to open the treasure chest alerts it. So what about an adventure game player who hates combat? He just won't get the treasure. And really, who needs treasure if you aren't going to use it to improve your monster-slaying skills?

We won't have a lot of environment-affecting actions in combat due to the budget and time constraints. If the Kickstarter is immensely successful, maybe just a little of that. If the series is successful, we'll have more environment-altering abilities on the wizard character (2nd game) and the warrior (3rd game). This game is not Underworld Ascendant (which I backed because Ultima Underworld was great).

We've had requests for special attacks for Shawn and may add some if we have the budget to add an animator to the team.

Most props are 3D; we have a few legacy 2D props. We switched because our first tests of the game in 2D looked bad, and then our 2D animator left the team for a much more lucrative job at Electronic Arts in Canada. We had spent months looking for 2D animators and only found one who was reasonably priced and also experienced. (By "reasonably priced", we were still talking $60K/year if he worked full-time, incidentally.) We had several fans apply for animation jobs, and they would have worked for less, but they had no experience with animating high-res, full-color characters. It's completely different from doing retro platform game animation. For just an arm and a leg (under $100K), we got all of our characters modeled, rigged, and with minimal animation from an outside art house. That was about 1/3 of our development budget, but it seemed to be the only way we could get the quality we want this game to have.

Of straight puzzles, there are very few. Most of the ones we have involve finding information - often very subtle - and figuring out how to use it. We don't have big yellow ! marks over the heads of "quest givers". Once you figure out what the "puzzle" is about, solving it will usually be very straightforward - it's all logical. We aren't trying to trip anyone up by showing them that the game designers are so clever, they can fool the players. We already have too much power.

Your rat king cheese puzzle is actually pretty close to one we have in the game. There is a character which wants something very badly, and is causing a lot of trouble because of it. You can kill that character (very difficult) or trade the item. But first you have to get it, which could involve another fight or a challenging theft. The third option is to negotiate with the character who wants the item - maybe there's something else that would be acceptable as a bribe.

We don't have a huge number of puzzles like that - They punctuate key moments of the game. Most of the time Hero-U is a "quiet RPG", involving a lot of conversation and exploration, with occasional turn-based combat.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Welcome back and good luck!

 

[Crooked Bee]

They added a lot of physical add-ons now. I hope they don't waste too much money on pledge fulfillment.

Add-On Price List (includes postage and handling):

• Most Wanted Poster $250 to any destination (also appears in-game)
• All Kinds of Heroes T-Shirt $40 U.S. / $50 International
• Hero-Unicorn Baseball Cap $40 U.S. / $50 International
• Set of Four 11x17 Posters $40 U.S. / $50 International
• Shawn’s Lucky Coin $30 to any destination
• Hero-Unicorn Varsity Letter $30 to any destination
• Hero-Unicorn Key Ring $30 to any destination

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/transolargames/hero-u-adventure-role-playing-game/posts/1230681

Meanwhile, the KS is at $55,000.

 

[Davaris]

What I did not know (and all of the other ex-Sierra developers who are doing or have done Unity projects funded here on Kickstarter, was how much it would take to recreate all those adventure game classes and allow game scripting under Unity. We've already used more than a programmer-year just creating and integrating a scripting language.

If only there had been some kind of pre-existing engine for such things, think of what they could have accomplished in that time!

There is also Articy, which has a sample integration into Unity in one of their tutorials.

http://www.nevigo.com/en/

 

[Morkar Left]

Their engine looks fine, worth the time that got invested in it.

combat demo vid