Interview A Decadent Interview at RPG Dot

[Roqua]

The underworld sucks my gold wherever I go, yo. They like mosquitoes. Get outta here and teach da Forty Thieves some manners. I give you big bang for it.

Underworld. Takes gold. Mine. Like parasite. Go. Restore the balance. Kill Forty Thieves. It is time.

Either should work fine, right?

I guess so if you’re an overdramatic drama queen. But not if you are a dialogue whore. (ew another fragment, by God, Sir, I am the scum of the earth ((should earth be like capitalized or what?))).

 

[Slylandro]

In case it wasn't obvious, I wasn't saying that all of VD's dialogue was bad. In particular, the dialogue for character responses is usually good. Anyway, regarding dialogue #3, is the *[insert action]* going to be changed later? PtD handled actions by starting a new line and then changing the color. A minor issue, but I'm curious.

@Roqua

You never did reply seriously when I asked you before-- what RPGs do you actually like? Just curious.

Edit:

I guess so if you’re an overdramatic drama queen. But not if you are a dialogue whore.

Actually this isn't really bad as far as English goes. English is more flexible than people give it credit for. Suddenly starting a sentence with "But" can give it strength. For example, compare:

"I didn't want to do this, VD. But you leave me with no choice." [Pulls the trigger]

"I didn't want to do this, VD, but you leave me with no choice." [Pulls the trigger]

There's a subtle difference in effect. It might be a minor thing in the big picture, but then again, no single raindrop is responsible for the flood as they say.

 

[Azarkon]

No one cares about the fragments, Roqua. People in real life speak in fragments all the time and it's *always* been like that in games:

"Coaxmetal: Start with a fragment of the enemy. A drop of blood. A crystalised thought. One of their hopes. All of these things tell the way it can die."

Fragments are unimportant. Grammatical correctness is unimportant. A cadenced flow of words, matching the personality of the speaker while adding to the atmosphere of the game, is.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Anyway, regarding dialogue #3, is the *[insert action]* going to be changed later? PtD handled actions by starting a new line and then changing the color. A minor issue, but I'm curious.

I was going to leave it like that, unless there is a better idea. It doesn't bother me, but then again, very few things do.

 

[Roqua]

My favorite series hands down was Realms of Arkania. I also loved Buck Rogers (both of them), Dark Sun, Wiz 7, FO's, Albion, Darklands, Hammer and Sickle, ToEE, Arcanum, etc. As well as liking the spiderweb games a lot, and PtD. And PsT minus the stupid gay combat. And u7 minus the combat. Both of those games have combat so bad as to have them not be allowed on my favorites list (and U7 had a whip wielding child you get right off the bat, which is beyond gay).

Some non-rpgs that I loved: Quest for Glory 1 (when it was called Hero's Quest, not that hippy, dialogue tree bullshit VGA claymation version), and 2, Bloodlines, Daggerfall, Legends of Valour, Arx fatalis, Camelot, the vampire game in the near future (kind of bladerunnerish), Nubanuga's Ambition (or however the fuck you spell it), Archon, the orginal Metal Gear, the game with the small car with the upgrades that was a side-scroller and the driver could get out and shoot, and the car could jump and fly and shoot and shit,JA 1 and 2, all the x-coms besides the hippy confusing one, S2 and S3, Metroids, super metroids, contra, super contra, rush n' attack, wiz 1 for nes, ultima for nes, golgo 13, gun smoke, every top down plane game with shooting, ff 1, dragon quest 1 and 4, golddigger for the c64, pitfall, bizerker, etc. I even liked ET. But I was too young and stupid and happy to be playing a video game to care back then.

 

[Slylandro]

@Azarkon

Exactly. I couldn't have put it better.

@VD

It's not a big deal to me either, it just seems that it would be more organized to have sentences describing action and dialogue separated somehow. But this is trivial, so don't bother with it until the end if at all.

Edit:

Thanks, Roqua.

 

[John Yossarian]

VD and team, great work so far, looking forward to playing it.

DISCLAIMER
I'm neither a native English speaker nor any good at it, so i have no idea if any of my suggestions are better than the original dialogue,let alone correct. Save the bitching. Also, i only skimmed some of the previous threads were dialogue was discussed, so if I repeat any arguments, I apologize. So save the bitching.

from http://www.garagegames.com/mg/snapshot/view.php?qid=1047

"[Perception] You notice the raiders are watching only the southern approach to the camp assuming that nobody would attack
them through the dense forest."

I can't tell if there is a comma after "camp", should there be one? Also I'd prefer "only watching" vs. "watching only".

from http://img153.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=screenshot19sn.jpg

first screen
" You enter the tavern. You can't help but notice that most patrons are armed and look like the sort that has outstanding debts to society town guards wouldn't mind collecting"

I think the switch from talking about what "you" notice and then about debts and town guards is kinda weird. My only suggestion would be to put a "that" before "town guards", but it would still sound weird. If this bothers anyone else, could you please give better ways to phrase it.

second screen
" I see. Well, it's up to you how you handle your bussiness as long as you remember to share your fortune with the Guild."

Should there be a comma after "bussiness"?

fifth screen

" You are new, aren't you?"

Should there be a comma after "new"?[/url]

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD and team, great work so far, looking forward to playing it.

Thanks.

"[Perception] You notice the raiders are watching only the southern approach to the camp assuming that nobody would attack them through the dense forest."

I can't tell if there is a comma after "camp", should there be one?

I think we all learned that I'm the last person here who should be making educated guesses about commas, so I'll let other people answer comma-related questions.

Also I'd prefer "only watching" vs. "watching only".

Wouldn't the meaning change then?

first screen
" You enter the tavern. You can't help but notice that most patrons are armed and look like the sort that has outstanding debts to society town guards wouldn't mind collecting"

I think the switch from talking about what "you" notice and then about debts and town guards is kinda weird. My only suggestion would be to put a "that" before "town guards", but it would still sound weird. If this bothers anyone else, could you please give better ways to phrase it.

I see nothing wrong with that sentence, but we shall find out soon enough.

 

[Dhruin]

I, and everyone, perfectly understood what I was supposed to get from the first paragraph. The second paragraph did nothing but add a little gloss. I’m not knocking your argument; I just don’t see it as a problem at all. Not even a little problem. I guess graphics whores needs a new partner—enter the grammar/composition whores (or dialogue whores for short). Keep sucking on your superficial dicks.

These comments are meant as a generalisation rather than being specifically directed at AoD.

Dismiss it all you like, Roqua, but many people will lose interest in a text-heavy game if it isn't engaging. Are you really arguing that people who like a text-heavy game but like decent writing are superficial? I would understand the gameplay if the dialogues went straight to the idiot labels...

[intimidate]
[persuade]
[combat]

...but it isn't necessarily going to hold my interest for that long. Good writing in any RPG has a greater chance of engaging the player and lifting the game from "crap" to "playable" or "good" to "great". And don't tell me the gameplay is the only thing that counts because I don't know how well that will pan out until I play it - but I do know that reading dialogues is a substantial part of the gameplay and making them better will only improve the game.

Commas, ellipses, semi-colons and so on indicate different types of pauses and intonation - they can completely change the "voice" of the speaker. That matters.

At the end of the day, nearly every RPG quest boils down "to find some person or item and interact with it". The story and characters give context and meaning to the dialogue interaction - otherwise I'm left with clicking on a list. That makes it pretty important.

 

[bryce777]

Well, the biggest problem with the parasite thing is simple; from whom does it suck the gold?

"Like a parasite, it sucks gold, the lifeblood of trade, getting fatter on it and corrupting people." -> it sucks gold from us all like a parasite, getting fatter even as it corrupts all who cross its path.

From trade in general. Goods are being stolen (lost revenues) and sold cheaper (lost market and revenues), which in turns supports independant craftsmen/traders (competition & lost revenues). It also corrupts people and like anti-virus costs money to maintain secure trade networks, etc. That was the idea.

Yeah, I realize it after a few seconds of reading but it's not obvious enough not to include a subject. Sort of like how you should always mention the full name of a game before saying its acronym.

 

[Mefi]

Wouldn't the meaning change then?

Kind of. Az's way can have the nuance of astonishment that they are doing it. eg "You're only making a tit out of yourself, that's all". Your way avoids unnecessary stress on the 'only'. Either is fine, but I'd go with your way.

first screen
" You enter the tavern. You can't help but notice that most patrons are armed and look like the sort that has outstanding debts to society town guards wouldn't mind collecting"

I think the switch from talking about what "you" notice and then about debts and town guards is kinda weird. My only suggestion would be to put a "that" before "town guards", but it would still sound weird. If this bothers anyone else, could you please give better ways to phrase it.

You enter the tavern. You can't help noticing that most of the patrons are armed. They seem like people with the type of outstanding debts to society which town guards enjoy collecting.


Anal. There's nothing wrong with the second quote unless you're a Fowler devotee. And even if you are a devotee of Fowler you should know that 'which' is the correct form to use in a modifier before suggesting alterations based on some knowledge of how things work. If this was speech 'that' would be fine as it is a colloquially acceptable alternative. It's not though, it's the narrative voice and so , if one is going for perfection, 'which' is the correct form. Anal, as I said.

 

[bryce777]

Well, it would have to be the sort that HAVE. You can't switch your subject midway through a sentence.

 

[Mefi]

Well, it would have to be the sort that HAVE. You can't switch your subject midway through a sentence.

It's not switching subject. It's a modifier. (I'd personally go for have there, not has, but it's not an error, just a bit neater as it turns the sort into a plural which matches up with the rest of the sentence better.) 'That' is only used for indicative or restrictive phrases. This is neither of those - you're adding information not defining or restricting a group. The defining/restrictive phrase is 'that have the kind of debt to society' btw.

 

[Claw]

"The underworld flourishes wherever money changes hands. Like a parasite, it fattens itself on the lifeblood of our trade. I don't think it could ever be completely eliminated. But at the very least it should be kept in check. The Forty Thieves should never have been allowed to reign as freely as it does in Teron. It's time to tip the scales."

I mostly like the changes, bar one. You ought to either place a comma between the third and fourth sentences or introduce a deliberate pause by starting the fourth sentence with However. Right now I don't read any pause, yet the period suggests one. That's awkward.
Behold:

"The underworld flourishes wherever money changes hands. Like a parasite, it fattens itself on the lifeblood of our trade. I don't think it could ever be completely eliminated.
However, at the very least it should be kept in check. The Forty Thieves should never have been allowed to reign as freely as it does in Teron. It's time to tip the scales."

I'm not sure if you'd want to rearrange the words in the fourth sentence under these circumstances.

 

[Claw]

Since debating abouch every small issue - like my last post - doesn't make too much sense to me, some more general advice for VD:

You want to avoid a run of short sentences seperated by periods, it feels akward, especially in dialogue.
This wasn't much of an issue in your original, rather longwinded sentences with the excessive use of commas. Slylandro shortened the sentences and split one in two, creating a series of relatively short sentences which to me didn't seem to flow well.

In fact, that probably bothered me more than any awkward grammar or style in your original dialogues. And no, I am not sucking him off, that's just how I feel. I'd rather err on the side of longwindedness and too many commas than the other way around.

 

[bryce777]

"You want to avoid a run of short sentences seperated by periods, it feels akward, especially in dialogue."

I agree with this, too. This is a mistake that is very common these days; basically, it's appropriate when speaking to a 3rd grade level audience and occasionally for dramitic effect, but otherwise you want your prose to flow. That is, you want it to flow in the way in which you are thinking it or intend it to be said.

 

[Roqua]

I, and everyone, perfectly understood what I was supposed to get from the first paragraph. The second paragraph did nothing but add a little gloss. I’m not knocking your argument; I just don’t see it as a problem at all. Not even a little problem. I guess graphics whores needs a new partner—enter the grammar/composition whores (or dialogue whores for short). Keep sucking on your superficial dicks.

These comments are meant as a generalisation rather than being specifically directed at AoD.

Dismiss it all you like, Roqua, but many people will lose interest in a text-heavy game if it isn't engaging. Are you really arguing that people who like a text-heavy game but like decent writing are superficial? I would understand the gameplay if the dialogues went straight to the idiot labels...

[intimidate]
[persuade]
[combat]

...but it isn't necessarily going to hold my interest for that long. Good writing in any RPG has a greater chance of engaging the player and lifting the game from "crap" to "playable" or "good" to "great". And don't tell me the gameplay is the only thing that counts because I don't know how well that will pan out until I play it - but I do know that reading dialogues is a substantial part of the gameplay and making them better will only improve the game.

Commas, ellipses, semi-colons and so on indicate different types of pauses and intonation - they can completely change the "voice" of the speaker. That matters.

At the end of the day, nearly every RPG quest boils down "to find some person or item and interact with it". The story and characters give context and meaning to the dialogue interaction - otherwise I'm left with clicking on a list. That makes it pretty important.

Yes, but I'm being annoying and I came up with a new type of way to supress people.

 

[ad hominem]

"The underworld flourishes wherever money changes hands. Like a parasite, it fattens itself on the lifeblood of our trade. I don't think it could ever be completely eliminated.
However, at the very least it should be kept in check. The Forty Thieves should never have been allowed to reign as freely as it does in Teron. It's time to tip the scales."

I'm not sure if you'd want to rearrange the words in the fourth sentence under these circumstances.

I think I probably would:

"At the very least, however, it should be kept in check."

One other thing that kind of bothers me is the last clause referring to "The Forty Thieves". It's probably because there's no context on it, but I want it to read "...reign as freely as they do in Teron." If this is the first mention of them, maybe something more like "The Forty Thieves faction" or something to that effect would be better; at this point it's a bit of a double-take.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Now that we have discussed every word and comma three times over, maybe it's time to look at some other aspects, too?

One thing I was wondering, VD: There is a lot of white space on your dialogue screen, so I wonder if you could slightly expand the worldview window and maybe also use a slightly larger font?

Also, could you talk a little more about the combat system? You say the grid movement adds a tactical element: How so? What are the tactical decisions I can make? Does terrain play a role, and if so, does the engine tell me the effects or do I need to study the manual beforehand? What's the most similar combat system in a previous game?

22 Locations: I assume that means towns/areas and does not include sub-locations and larger interiors (temples, castles, dungeons, caves), right?

You mention mainly human foes. Is there at least passive wildlife, pets, etc. to bring some life to the world?
How do you intend to achieve variety with mainly human opposition? How different are the challenges in combat?

Quests: three to six solutions sound great, but how strongly "pre-scripted" are they? Have you experimented with simply defining a set of goals and leaving it to the player and the game mechanics to determine the actual solutions? Are there any recyclable "random" quests a la Daggerfall?

Congrats on the interest from publishers and other gaming sites, btw, that's a great sign. Do you currently favour an actual classic publishing deal, or do you think you prefer an indie/online distribution path.

 

[FrancoTAU]

In unrelated news, I got an offer from a publisher today: a distribution deal plus an advance payment. Considering that it's the third publishing inquiry I got in the last 6 months, I must say that I'm surprised at the reaction overall.

Wow, even if it's small publishers that's pretty surprising. Have the deals improved in your favor at all since the original interest you were getting during the beginning of development? I mean, they don't really have to fund the game since it's months away. If you could swing a deal where you get to distribute it digitally on your own and keep all the proceeds while splitting the money on the boxed version than it could be worthwhile.

Anywho, i think there's a lot of nitpicking going on but there is something to the comma usage. That was the one thing I did pick up on my read through of your dialogue before this thread even came about. I mean, people don't speak gramatically correct but there is something unnatural about some of "stop and start talk" that the commas would indicate. Your character's responses seem really good for the most part though.

 

[elander_]

I don't know how well that will pan out until I play it - but I do know that reading dialogues is a substantial part of the gameplay and making them better will only improve the game.

I don't know if we can call just reading dialogs or books in games gameplay if that is what you are trying to say. This is an important issue so i will make a longer than usual post.

We can call gameplay an exercise of some sort of the player physical (reflexes) or mental skills or just a pure game of chances and memory. What makes gameplay old in some cases and less old in others is that when the player realizes a certain number of paterns the game becomes old quickly while in games with strong gameplay the player never stops learning new patterns (chess for example is like this).

Dialog requires text interpretation capabilities and so an ambiguous text is often a requirement for it to be interesting if we wan't to play a game more than once. This however isn't very lucrative and desirable. In modern games dialog tends to be very linear and basicly fills the role of telling a story with extra devices like compasses and journals to tell the player exactly what he has to do and thus eliminating any dialog role-play.

Unless it is very well writen this works against having interesting dialog and role-playing. Added to the fact that any moron that can use Word and write without errors is considered a game writer this doesn't help much. As usual game writers won't blame themselves for not even have a univ course; they blame dialog itself and the IQ of gamers.

There are different ways to explore dialog gameplay. The most interesting ones for me come from Chris Avelone games and the interplay that exists between team characters.I would say that CA favorite dialog gameplay is making the player take chances.

In dialog gameplay the player usualy is offered dialog lines that can be interpreted in different ways or with information that is not given but can be inferred from what is given. A dialog line may something like "bla bla bla Privateers Hold bla bla bla" and even if the player doesn't understand the bla bla bla he knows there is a place called Privateers Hold and can research further or perhaps he recalls he has read something about it in some book and the information will be useful. Players with good text interpretation, deduction capabalities or with a good lore recall memory will probably get more clues about what is going on and will be reward with an easier and more lucrative quest outcome. I think this would be considered gameplay since some sort of interaction and exercise of players skills is used.

It is a common mistake to think that if you have an high speach skill in a crpg that everything should be easier for you. Wrong, the only thing that should change when having an high speach skill is the chalenge level and the amount and quality of information the player can obtain with this character by using this skill. It's a mater of status and of justifying the character skill. High speach skilled characters should obtain info and access rewards not accessible to other characters. However the chalenge level should change apropriately. That's why templated quests and feedback is so important.

Quests: three to six solutions sound great, but how strongly "pre-scripted" are they? Have you experimented with simply defining a set of goals and leaving it to the player and the game mechanics to determine the actual solutions? Are there any recyclable "random" quests a la Daggerfall?

Why don't you give us a complete example of a quest VD and how you tried to acomplish what you claim?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Now that we have discussed every word and comma three times over, maybe it's time to look at some other aspects, too?

If you think that they are more important than commas...

One thing I was wondering, VD: There is a lot of white space on your dialogue screen, so I wonder if you could slightly expand the worldview window and maybe also use a slightly larger font?

We are changing it to:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... 361#210361

As you can see, the camera window is large enough; as for the font, some people have a lot to say, so a larger font won't work. We'll make sure that it's readable though.

Also, could you talk a little more about the combat system? You say the grid movement adds a tactical element: How so? What are the tactical decisions I can make? Does terrain play a role, and if so, does the engine tell me the effects or do I need to study the manual beforehand? What's the most similar combat system in a previous game?

The grid shows the movement & reach, including those of your opponents, so it's easier to evaluate the situation and find a location that may give you an advantage. Terrain doesn't affect your movements, but offers basic stuff like higher ground and natural obstacles and cover (stairways, narrow passages, barrels, ruins, etc).

Most tactical elements come from your attack options, and that, I think, is the most important element.

22 Locations: I assume that means towns/areas and does not include sub-locations and larger interiors (temples, castles, dungeons, caves), right?

No interiors, but I'm not sure what you mean by sub-locations. Using Fallout 2 as an example, we count locations like the Toxic Caves, but not Klamath's Trapping Grounds.

You mention mainly human foes. Is there at least passive wildlife, pets, etc. to bring some life to the world?

Not that I know of (means "no").

How do you intend to achieve variety with mainly human opposition? How different are the challenges in combat?

Different people use different tactics and styles. Dealing with a fast, lightly armored opponent is VERY different than dealing with a slow walking tank. Trying to approach a spearman who interrupts (special attack) your attempts to close the distance is VERY different than dealing with a hammer guy whose attacks may send you flying. Dealing with a dagger guy with Critical Strike and 4-6 attacks per turn is different than dealing with a guy with a 2H sword (most likely he would be able to attack only once per turn, but you won't survive more than 2 *successful* attacks)

Quests: three to six solutions sound great, but how strongly "pre-scripted" are they?

I'm a big fan of scripting.

Have you experimented with simply defining a set of goals and leaving it to the player and the game mechanics to determine the actual solutions?

Not my cup of tea.

Are there any recyclable "random" quests a la Daggerfall?

No.

Congrats on the interest from publishers and other gaming sites, btw, that's a great sign. Do you currently favour an actual classic publishing deal, or do you think you prefer an indie/online distribution path.

Thanks. I prefer the indie way, at least I'm curious enough to try it and see what happens.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why don't you give us a complete example of a quest VD and how you tried to acomplish what you claim?

You are asked to save a noble, kidnapped by some raiders. You can:

1. Kill all raiders.
2. Assassinate the leader and intimidate the rest. It's fun when you kill the leader, but fail the intimidation check.
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6083 ... t019pb.jpg
3. Deal with the raiders and convince the Noble House to pay the ransom. Negotiate with the raiders and make some money by paying them less. Pay them in full and get them to handle another quest for you.
4. If you got the ransom money, convince the Thieves Guild that raiders are bad for business. They will help you for a cut.
http://img153.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=s ... ot19sn.jpg
5. Convince the Imperial Guards to interfere if you have the balls to do what they ask for in return. You can double-cross them though. Whatever you do, prepare for more consequences than you can handle.
6. If your character is too fucking useless to do any of the above, you can scout the location and pass your info to the Noble House enforcers. The success of their attack and the casualties, including the life of the kidnapped guy, depends on your info.

 

[galsiah]

Now that we have discussed every word and comma three times over, maybe it's time to look at some other aspects, too?

Never!!

......
While I don't think that it could be completely eliminated, it should be held in check. That cursed Forty Thieves...
=>
I don't think it could ever be completely eliminated. But at the very least it should be kept in check. The Forty Thieves...

I realize this is the least important of your changes, but I wanted to comment on it. Personally I prefer VD's original here. VD's version connects the first two ideas more closely, using "," then ".", whereas yours puts all three on an equal footing - using two "."s.

Now I agree that VD is overusing commas in general, but changing too many to periods (or "full stops" if we're speaking English ) can make things seem disjointed. In the above, the "elimination" and the "holding in check" are closely connected, so I think it makes sense to connect them grammatically.

The suggestiong I'd make is to use a few more semicolons, colons or dashes - personally I like dashes. That way ideas can be connected more closely than is allowed by a period, without the player getting lost in a sea of commas.

The rest of Slylandro's comments make good sense to me.

I'm a big fan of scripting.

Sure, but does much of that scripting check for states-of-the-world, or does it usually check for script triggers.

For instance, say I've got to bring 10 of rare item Y to NPC X. Say that you've set up 5 delightfully diverse solutions to this, involving cunning, combat, treachery, scantily clad elves and, of course, rats. Each solution allows you to get the items and return to NPC X.

Now say the player manages to get the 10 Ys without following any of the five paths - perhaps there's a sixth way you hadn't thought of. Will NPC X be happy, even though you haven't followed any preset path? Will all the quest scripting be happy?

Perhaps there won't usually be other ways to achieve goals than the ones you've planned. However, if that can happen at all, it'd be nice for things to respond well. If you've set everything up to rely on specific dialogue triggers, they might not; if you're checking for satisfaction of the objective independently, they should.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm a big fan of scripting.

Sure, but does much of that scripting check for states-of-the-world, or does it usually check for script triggers.

The former.

Now say the player manages to get the 10 Ys without following any of the five paths - perhaps there's a sixth way you hadn't thought of. Will NPC X be happy, even though you haven't followed any preset path? Will all the quest scripting be happy?

Yes.