Interview A Decadent Interview at RPG Dot

[WouldBeCreator]

In terms of sheer "technical" usage, it's worse than every game I've played in the past five years, which means probably 200 games or so. (FWIW, I haven't played foreign, poorly localized games like Space Rangers 2; I imagine your English edges theirs out.)

Now THAT, Azarkon, is how pompous and pretentious people express themselves. Take some notes.

Look, VD, you're claiming that the writing is as good as every game but the four or five best-regarded RPGs. You want to talk about arrogance? The grammar in the dialogue sucks. The dialogue is riddled with errors. These errors have been pointed out to you. The same was true of the lore you cobbled together from the Nag Hammadi stuff. Both times you refused to admit there were any problems. I have not seen more than one or two grammar errors in any of the games I've played in recent memory. You have one or two grammar errors in half your screenshots! I'm sorry if telling you the truth is being "pompous and pretentious," while boasting that *your writing is inferior only to that of FO, BG, and PST* is modest. I guess I woke up in bizarro world today.

FYI:
http://newspics.rpgdot.com/imageview.ph ... ucius1.jpg
(option 3 has a punctuation error)

http://newspics.rpgdot.com/imageview.ph ... ucius2.jpg
(Lucius's second sentence has a couple grammar errors, noted earlier)

http://newspics.rpgdot.com/imageview.ph ... Linos2.jpg
(punctuation error in merchant's dialogue)

In terms of artistry, I'd put it in the bottom 25%. That said, I haven't played many RPGs lately, so if you're restricting it to RPGs, and then to the narrow Codex notion of RPGs, and then (apparently) to top-down RPGs, you've probably cut the pool down to just the games you've listed plus a few more.

Oblivion and Rise of Legends, for example.

This is plainly subjective, but while I disliked the dialogue in RoL (and noted as much on the general discussion board), I still think is pretty superior to yours in artistry.

Don't get me wrong: your general plot seems good and the *design* of the dialogue seems good. But the technical usage is crappy and the artistry is, at best, workmanlike. Especially assuming -- perhaps in error -- that you're putting your best foot forward and showing us the dialogue you think would pique people's interest.

 

[Twinfalls]

It must surely be safe to say that VD agrees the existing dialogue is rough, unpolished, work-in-progress stuff.

It will be much more efficient to just *get the dialogue stuff done* (provided characterisation design is properly planned), and then refine it - as I said, the Hivemind might be a very powerful tool if harnessed for this task.

I really don't think VD should be getting bogged down in this type of argument or concern at this stage.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I have not seen more than one or two grammar errors in any of the games I've played in recent memory.

Not true from my experience. All recent games I played (Oblivion, KOTOR2, Spellforce), contained significant amounts of spelling errors, typos, and odd grammar, and I didn't even look for punctuation. And while I don't want to be a VD apologist, spoken language is very frequently grammatically incorrect, so style, and grammatical correctness can be opposing principles in written dialogue.

 

[bryce777]

I have not seen more than one or two grammar errors in any of the games I've played in recent memory.

Not true from my experience. All recent games I played (Oblivion, KOTOR2, Spellforce), contained significant amounts of spelling errors, typos, and odd grammar, and I didn't even look for punctuation. And while I don't want to be a VD apologist, spoken language is very frequently grammatically incorrect, so style, and grammatical correctness can be opposing principles in written dialogue.

This is very true. It would be easy to pick apart the grammar of most games out there if anyone really cared to.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Perhaps you think it's annoying, but I don't think there's anything personal in it.

His phrase about the messianic threatment does elevate his criticism above the objective levels.

If he's overstating the case (and I think he is, given that you aren't aiming for PS:T), that's probably a reaction to comments that there's no problem at all. There clearly are at least a few problems - I just don't think they're too important, given your aims.

If I'm not mistaken, I have acknowledged the problem and my shortcomings, and never denied them. I disagree, however, that my writing is the "worse than every game I've played" (btw, that doesn't sound overly correct to me) and "riddled with run-on sentences", but that's a different matter.

He is right to say that you shouldn't take the opinions of people here as unbiased though.

No. He made an assumption that I showed the dialogues only here and that my opinion is based on what my friends and "worshippers" think. I've shown my dialogues to many different people, including professional writers and well known here RPG designers. They noted the occasional awkwardness and minor issues that didn't distract them at all. Most people liked the writing. That's all I can say.

 

[galsiah]

...that's probably a reaction to comments that there's no problem at all....

If I'm not mistaken, I have acknowledged the problem and my shortcomings, and never denied them.

Sorry - I didn't mean your comments. Others made those comments.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Look, VD, you're claiming that the writing is as good as every game but the four or five best-regarded RPGs.

I am? Where?

Here is what I actually wrote:

...it's awfully weak compared to other games out there.

Again, what games? Out where? FO, BG, PST. 5 games. If my game is #6, I can live with that.

I would appreciate if you stop misrepresenting my comments.

The grammar in the dialogue sucks. The dialogue is riddled with errors.

I'd appreciate some comments from other people here. If you agree with WBC, with EXACTLY what he wrote, I'll follow his advice and spend more time/work with people whose English doesn't suck.

These errors have been pointed out to you. The same was true of the lore you cobbled together from the Nag Hammadi stuff. Both times you refused to admit there were any problems.

You see, it's comments like that that make me doubt the nature of your criticism. I think it's fair to say that even a moron with the most basic grasp of English would agree that I've acknowledged that there are some issues with the dialogues. Yet you continue with your nonsense. As for that discussion, I simply pointed out that many issues that you found there were in the original document.

I have not seen more than one or two grammar errors in any of the games I've played in recent memory.

Bullshit.

This is plainly subjective, but while I disliked the dialogue in RoL (and noted as much on the general discussion board), I still think is pretty superior to yours in artistry.

Pretty superior in terms of artistry? You've gotta be kidding me. I'm at work now, but I'll post some examples when I get home to illustrate the artistry and your bias.

Especially assuming -- perhaps in error -- that you're putting your best foot forward and showing us the dialogue you think would pique people's interest.

Randomly chosen to show different quests in the starting town.

 

[Jora]

The only thing that really bothers me about the dialogue examples is the use of commas.

 

[Mefi]

Ok. Let's go through the screenshots shown on the interview. Starting from the top and going left to right.

1. Nope. Not an error. You could split option 3 into : I need some iron ore. Do you have any?
or you could go: I need some iron ore; do you have any? but that's stylistic as a comma works just fine. It's speech not fucking grammar with grandma.


2. Being hypercritical I would break down the long sentence into: Perhaps you can help me? I have a rare piece of iron ore. Can you tell me what it is?

But that's being hypercritical and a complex sentence works just as well as the simplified version I suggest.


3. Nada. Can't find a thing wrong.


4. Option 3 should read "for some reason" not "for some reasons". My god an extra 's'.


5. Option 4 could use a comma after "including the ore shipment". Looks like a capital 'S' has snuck in Linos speech in the word 'underworld'S'. You should be ashamed VD.


6. Nothing I can spot.


Seriously people - are you actually reading the dialogue or are you just trying to pimp for a job on the project because of your undiscovered talent at writing/proofreading/general ability with language?

My credentials? BA (Hons) International English (Oxon), MA English Literature (Liege), Phd (Manchester), PGCE (Manchester). I say that dialogue is grammatically sound. It's not how I'd write it, but then that's the great thing about grammar - it's a fucking complex tool which can be used in a great number of ways. Go compare someone like Hemmingway with Hardy. Same grammatical rules, totally different styles, syntax and sentence construction. Leave off with this fucking trolling.

 

[Hazelnut]

The grammar in the dialogue sucks. The dialogue is riddled with errors.

I'd appreciate some comments from other people here. If you agree with WBC, with EXACTLY what he wrote, I'll follow his advice and spend more time/work with people whose English doesn't suck.

It's not that serious IMHO, and given your aims, is simply not worth delaying for. I think you may find you delay enough with the old "last 10% taking loads more effort than you expect". Pulling it all together into a cohesive whole that does justice to the last X years of effort is much more important than rehashing the dialogue.

This is plainly subjective, but while I disliked the dialogue in RoL (and noted as much on the general discussion board), I still think is pretty superior to yours in artistry.

Pretty superior in terms of artistry? You've gotta be kidding me. I'm at work now, but I'll post some examples when I get home to illustrate the artistry and your bias.

Please don't VD, go spend the time productively by working on AoD! :D
(I also don't want to see much more meat of the game until I can play the damn thing)

I do occasionaly wonder if the game would be finished if you posted on here a little less...
(or maybe you can just read & write 10x faster than this native english speaker. kudos if ya can)

 

[bryce777]

2. Well, two has some comma faults and is sort of bad, I guess, but it is just punctuation not really writing. The actual dialogue all seems very good now that I look at it more closely.

5. has some comma faults, too. I would make that first one a semicolon and work from there.

6. You should have 4 dots in an ellipse ending a sentence. You should not capitalize Noble Houses or Guards when it is alone. One in a thousand people will notice the ellipses, but the capitlization looks a bit goofy.


Actually, there are mostly just way too many fucking commas, and they are in places they should not be. I like to use parenthetical commas, and that is fine, but it is a problem.

God, I'm bored.

Anyway, the writing itself looks very good overall. Presumably the minor grammar problems will be easy to clean up.

Next we should look at WBC's grammar....

 

[galsiah]

I don't have any problem with the writing, apart from the few above mentioned punctuation issues. They're not amazingly important, but clearing them up would be helpful - it'd just make reading them smoother.

bryce777:
Agreed on "Guards", but there's no reason why "Noble Houses" shouldn't be capitalized in AoD's world. It doesn't mean "houses which are noble", but rather refers to a specific set of organizations. It makes just as much sense as capitalization of the White House.

 

[bryce777]

I don't have any problem with the writing, apart from the few above mentioned punctuation issues. They're not amazingly important, but clearing them up would be helpful - it'd just make reading them smoother.

bryce777:
Agreed on "Guards", but there's no reason why "Noble Houses" shouldn't be capitalized in AoD's world. It doesn't mean "houses which are noble", but rather refers to a specific set of organizations. It makes just as much sense as capitalization of the White House.

Well, what I was going to say is you can capitalize it like that, but if it is an institution as in the House of Lords, then it is not a very good name and a new one should be found.

 

[FrancoTAU]

Alright, we're fucking arguing over whether or not we should capitalize "Noble Houses." This is turning into an Oblivion like thread in its stupidness.

 

[ichpokhudezh]

We would be living in a vacuum if comma splices were to suck as much as WouldBeCreator insinuates.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I always told my teachers that commas are overrated

 

[Azarkon]

Grammatical awkwardness does not imply grammatical mistakes, Mefi. Nor are grammatically correct sentences incapable of being awkward. Human speech hardly needs to abide by every grammar rule in the book - but it does need a natural cadence.

Let's see:

Screenshot 1: You said it yourself.

Screenshot 2: "Perhaps, you can help me" is awkward. No one pauses after a "perhaps" in a long sentence. Afterwards, same problem with the comma-as-period between the two parts of the sentence.

Screenshot 3: No real problems here.

Screenshot 4: Another issue here is the line "like a parasite, it sucks gold, the lifeblood of trade, getting fatter on it and corrupting people." Something that isn't quite right with the way this sentence is phrased - it tries to be dramatic, but ends up quaint due to the word use of "and corrupting people" at the end.

Screenshot 5: You've got to be kidding me if you think a capitalized S is the only problem here.

Repetition of "stolen goods" makes the sentence more redundant than it should be. There's an overuse of "and" in the conjunctive phrase. "That's the underworld's biggest strength as it makes it very hard to eliminate them, and that's its biggest weakness" has an ambiguous/unnecessary "it," while the choice of using a comma and an "and" to connect strength with weakness is simply awkward.

I'm also pretty sure that using an arithmetic number to begin a sentence is a stylistic error by most standards. However, I'm easily willing to overlook that given that this is a game and numbers are rather important.

Screenshot 6: I had to read the first paragraph several times in order to figure out that "*they*" referred to Imperial Guards because of the way the sentences are set up. "They," at the end of the third sentence, refers to the Merchant Guild, not the Imperial Guards, and it obviously makes no sense to repeat what was just said. It's a good thing that Linos mentions "arrogant, uneducated" soldiers or else it's likely the player would've never figured out why he emphasizes they.

English PGCE? It's obvious they don't teach them like they used to.

 

[Mefi]

Let's have a look..

1) Yup.

2) Yup, but I said that. It does not mean the sentence is grammatically incorrect.

3) Agreed

4) You're pointing to style again.

5) You're pointing to style again.

6) Oh you're pointing to style again.

PGCE English? Sure. That's why I don't do dumb things and address why a poster hasn't commented on style when he was focusing on grammatical errors. Educashun, doncha luv it?

So all your style issues are with the old fart who uses big words, complex sentences and sounds like a twat? Because he uses too many words, complex sentences and sounds like a twat? Coolio.

Ok. So addressing style now. Guess what? The style is fine. I read the old man as being an old fart - that's the voice in my head when I read his lines. If every single dialogue VD posted was identical to the old man's then yes, that would be a problem. But the thief's isn't. And that's the only comparison I've got to go on. It's like dismissing the writing in Apocalypse Now as being crap because you heard a short clip of Kurtz raving. A bit retarded, the truth be told.

 

[HotSnack]

Screenshot 2: "Perhaps, you can help me" is awkward. No one pauses after a "perhaps" in a long sentence.

I'd imagine the pause is a contemplative one, rather than one for a breather or emphasis. Of course the problem as people have noted, is that speech patterns can look funny when written down.

By the way VD, I wouldn't bother to give the writing a complete overhaul. Minor corrections after some proof readings sure, but the dialogue isn't in a state where I'm thinking "wtf, I didn't understand that one bit" or "holy shit this is making my eyes bleed," which is all I really need. Besides, the last thing you probably want is to fall into the trap of development obscurity.

 

[Azarkon]

PGCE English? Sure. That's why I don't do dumb things and address why a poster hasn't commented on style when he was focusing on grammatical errors. Educashun, doncha luv it?

Personally, I don't think anyone here made an active distinction between grammar and style when they commented on the writing. It's a given that speech is often grammatically incorrect, so what most of us have been saying is that the sentences don't *flow* right - ie that they're grammatically awkward.

Besides, your post was hardly selectively targetted and sounded much too like a dismissal of all criticism on the grounds of your awesome educashun in grammar.

So all your style issues are with the old fart who uses big words, complex sentences and sounds like a twat? Because he uses too many words, complex sentences and sounds like a twat? Coolio.

I didn't imagine Linos to be an old man from reading the dialogue - maybe you have insider info? I imagined that, as head of the Merchants Guild, he'd be more or less a pompous windbag. But being a pompous windbag doesn't mean your statements flow like steel over jagged iron. None of my problems had anything to do with him using too many words, complex sentences, or because he sounded like a twat. My issues were that he used *awkward* sentences that had clear stylistic issues and which did not sound like natural speech, windbag or not.

If, I talked like - this. Would, you think it was, just a normal windbag? Or that I had issues with the language? If I spoke it like it was its own is it a testament to my style or the theirs?

But I'll admit, six screenshots is hardly a fair sample for all of VD's writing. I'll wait until the full game before doing a more comprehensive analysis.

 

[Zomg]

I see WBC has guaranteed the writing wil be released as-is since I last checked the thread.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I see WBC has guaranteed the writing wil be released as-is since I last checked the thread.

No. I'll definitely try to improve, but there is a difference between "it's good overall, but needs some tweaking" and "My GOD!!! The grammar in the dialogue sucks. The dialogue is riddled with errors! How awful!"

I do occasionaly wonder if the game would be finished if you posted on here a little less...

I usually do that when I'm at work.

The actual dialogue all seems very good now that I look at it more closely.

Thanks. I guess I should thank WBC for attracting that much attention.

Screenshot 6: I had to read the first paragraph several times in order to figure out that "*they*" referred to Imperial Guards because of the way the sentences are set up. "They," at the end of the third sentence, refers to the Merchant Guild, not the Imperial Guards, and it obviously makes no sense to repeat what was just said. It's a good thing that Linos mentions "arrogant, uneducated" soldiers or else it's likely the player would've never figured out why he emphasizes they.

Here is the link:
http://newspics.rpgdot.com/imageview.ph ... Linos3.jpg

Again, that's how people often talk. Have you ever had a conversation where you had to ask "who "they"?"? Maybe trying to use a conversational style was a mistake, but that was the idea.

If, I talked like - this. Would, you think it was, just a normal windbag?

With all due respect, that's a poor analogy.

But I'll admit, six screenshots is hardly a fair sample for all of VD's writing.

I posted more than 20 screens, not counting the last 6. Should be enough to form an opinion.

I read the old man as being an old fart - that's the voice in my head when I read his lines.

That's what I was going for.

 

[old stoneface]

Hi,
this struck me as a good time to actually post something for once...

Anyone who reads through this thread and then look at the screenshots would be sensitized to grammar and punctuation, and any observations from them would be biased as a consequence, so I thought my initial reaction on reading the dialogue (a few days ago) might be useful.

My basic reaction was that I liked it, plain and simple.
As to the "errors and awkwardness", I did not notice any. Although this might stem from the fact that I was focusing on what was said and the possible implications for the gameworld. One has to like screenshots brimming with information.
Anyway, I like the tone of the PC, cool and unexcitable, I hope this is something that runs though his/her answers in general, and not something I fabricated in my mind. (I read the thief dialogue first...)


On a side note, I would like to thank all the fanboys/cynical bastards (you know who you are) here at the codex for unashamedly bringing up certain games at every opportunity. For me, the gaming these last years have simply been great. There are some good things to be said for coming into a genre late.

And finally, great looking game VD.

 

[Azarkon]

Here is the link:
http://newspics.rpgdot.com/imageview.ph ... Linos3.jpg

Again, that's how people often talk. Have you ever had a conversation where you had to ask "who "they"?"? Maybe trying to use a conversational style was a mistake, but that was the idea.

I definitely have, and if that's what you're going for, then I retract my statements regarding that particular screenshot. However, in a real conversation you would, like you said, be able to ask who "they" are. If that was the intention, you might want to put that as a dialogue option wherever there are ambiguous referents.

With all due respect, that's a poor analogy.

It was an exaggeration for the sake of showing that style should not be used as a justification for grammatical awkwardness. Consistency is an issue here - if it's part of Linos's speaking style to be grammatically awkward, then I'd expect that problem to persist across the board. As it is, he only seems to make stylistic mistakes (and different stylistic mistakes, for that matter) sporadically, but is otherwise seemingly capable of eloquence. That's jarring - for me specifically, but I'm sure it will affect a portion of your audience as well, as I'm not exactly eccentric in how I judge writing (ie my opinions oftentimes match with that of other casual observers on game review sites, NWN Vault, etc.)

Now don't get me wrong, it's completely fine to have a character whose language intentionally sucks to mirror a lack of proper education or whatnot. But Linos didn't strike me as that sort of person, and moreover, the kinds of stylistic mistakes he makes are more akin to the ones you see while grading English papers than while listening to someone speak. If that's what you're going for, I gotta say: you'll have a tough time convincing people that it was intentional.

I posted more than 20 screens, not counting the last 6. Should be enough to form an opinion.

Are they all of dialogue screens? If so, I'll take a look.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Anyway, I like the tone of the PC, cool and unexcitable, I hope this is something that runs though his/her answers in general, and not something I fabricated in my mind. (I read the thief dialogue first...)

It does.

And finally, great looking game VD.

Thanks.

In unrelated news, I got an offer from a publisher today: a distribution deal plus an advance payment. Considering that it's the third publishing inquiry I got in the last 6 months, I must say that I'm surprised at the reaction overall.