A eulogy for Alignment in CRPGs

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Your attitude and relation to the world should be evident through your actions.

No, it shouldn't. As I said:

The alignment system is about personality and motivation and not actual good and evil deeds, at least when properly utilized.

For example, a lawful evil character could be a knight who does good, but only for the adoration of the people so that he can abuse his authority in secret.

Or a True Neutral character could commit acts of unspeakable evil in order to bring balance.

All of that is completely unaccounted for with a reputation system alone.

I suppose you believe everyone who comes up to you and says they're "anti-badguy", too.

Except that's not what an alignment system does. Characters in the world don't (or shouldn't) come up to you and introduce themselves as Lawful Good. And even if they did, it doesn't mean you can trust them to never do anything bad.

Look, you're clearly not getting it. All an alignment system is is an approximation of who you are as a character. It's not mean to describe who you are exactly in all your special snowflake uniqueness.

It's not intended to track your reputation or dictate your actions either. The only way people should react to it is if they are one of the rare beings or entities that can detect alignment, or if they just have some feeling or sense that you're a good/evil person for story purposes.

It's intended to be a guide to the character you're building. One whom you might not even have a backstory of any kind for in the beginning.

It's a framework. A core of a character's basic motive. A description and it can change if you feel your character does. (Or if the DM notices that you're a completely evil murder hobo who isn't at all lawful good).

Player’s Handbook, page 46
The character’s alignment is a guide to his basic moral and ethical attitudes toward others, society, good, evil, and the forces of the universe in general. Use the chosen alignment as a guide to provide a clearer idea of how the character will handle moral dilemmas. Always consider alignment as a tool, not a straitjacket that restricts the character. Although alignment defines general attitudes, it certainly doesn’t prevent a character from changing his beliefs, acting irrationally, or behaving out of character.

As OP said, it's pretty sad that so many here are so insistent on dumbing down and streamlining systems they barely understand.

 

[Shitty Kitty]

There are better ways to approximate who you are as a character. Observations of your character's behavior, dialogues that shed light on motives. Things that make a good story. As for "detecting alignment" - it leads to stupidity when the wrong player gets his hands on it, and I can only imagine the kind of stupidity that might result from a DM making use of it. It's basically low-end telepathy and telepathy is and always has been anathema to a campaign without SEVERE FUCKING RESTRICTIONS.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

TThings that make a good story. As for "detecting alignment" - it leads to stupidity when the wrong player gets his hands on it, and I can only imagine the kind of stupidity that might result from a DM making use of it. It's basically low-end telepathy and telepathy is and always has been anathema to a campaign without SEVERE FUCKING RESTRICTIONS.

It's a game with magic spells and those spells have limits and don't just turn Know Alignment into telepathy any more than Firebolt turns you into a walking nuke because you can manipulate the state of atoms.

And what if the wrong player gets his hands on "invisibility" and decides to abandon his quest and peek inside the girls' locker room? Oh, no! People might even laugh! Come on.

There are better ways to approximate who you are as a character. Observations of your character's behavior, dialogues that shed light on motives.

And I'm sure having your entire dialog history on your character sheet would really give you an idea of your character.

You're basically arguing for a simplified point system in the end.

I don't know what bug you have up your but about "3x3 grids", but they're clearly superior to a point driven alignment system which at best tells you the same thing the 3x3 system does, only with numbers and at worst becomes Mass Effect.

 

[Shitty Kitty]

Like, do you not at least take mental notes of other characters and their interactions in a game?

And the problem with Telepathy and similar abilities is its ability to basically throw any kind of actual storytelling out the window, to serve as a slapdash stand-in for verbal interactions with characters and NPCs, etc. This isn't even getting into the absurdity of being able to perceive evil as a tangible thing, which has never made sense. It thwarts the idea of intrigue in a diplomatic interaction - "this guy is telling me about a massive stash of contraband items hidden in a weird, isolated location. Should I use my fucking brain and infer that there might be more at play here, maybe make some Sense Motive rolls and try and figure out what his angle is? LOL NO FUCKIT DETECT EVIL - OH LOOK HE PINGED EVIL IT'S A TRAP EVERYONE GO HOME NOW."

 

[rusty_shackleford]

cRPGs that show you another character's alignment(including your own party member's alignments) as a statistic are doing it completely wrong. Your character's alignment is for you and the DM.
Outside of them telling you(they may lie) and a know alignment(or similar) spell, you shouldn't be able to know. And the latter can be shielded against through various means if one is intent on deceiving.

 

[Poseidon00]

It just blows my mind how "2 choices is bad RPG. 9 choices is great RPG." Someone called it 9th grade philosophy, the trolley scenario. What does that make 3x3? 10th grade philosophy?

That was me.

Screw Trolley. Praise Alignment. All my homies love Alignment and hate the Trolley Problem.

 

[Poseidon00]

A trolley is barreling toward a bunch of trolley problem theorists. Do you watch as it runs them over, or do you look the other way and pretend it never happened so the DM doesn't turn you Chaotic Evil?

 

[Shitty Kitty]

A trolley is barreling toward a bunch of trolley problem theorists. Do you watch as it runs them over, or do you look the other way and pretend it never happened so the DM doesn't turn you Chaotic Evil?

A poster is named Poseidon00 and he loves extraneous crunch and tracking points on grids instead of playing a damn game. Is he a massive fucking faggot or just pretending to be one?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

extraneous crunch

There is no such thing.

 

[Ismaul]

Player’s Handbook, page 46
The character’s alignment is a guide to his basic moral and ethical attitudes toward others, society, good, evil, and the forces of the universe in general. Use the chosen alignment as a guide to provide a clearer idea of how the character will handle moral dilemmas. Always consider alignment as a tool, not a straitjacket that restricts the character. Although alignment defines general attitudes, it certainly doesn’t prevent a character from changing his beliefs, acting irrationally, or behaving out of character.

As OP said, it's pretty sad that so many here are so insistent on dumbing down and streamlining systems they barely understand.

Except alignment might be in theory about intent and beliefs and attitude, but when it is applied as a mechanic, it is all about actions.

Lawfulness and good deeds are the meat and drink of a paladin. If a paladin ever knowlingly performs a chaotic act, he must [...] confess his sin, and do penance [...]. If a paladin ever knowlingly performs an evil act, he loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably. All benefits are then lost [...].

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies).

The problem stems from the fact that we can't know intents and beliefs independently of actions that are evidence for such intents or beliefs. And so trying to apply alignment as a mechanic leads inevitably to debates and disagreements about the interpretation of the intents and beliefs behind actions, since very different intents and beliefs can lead to the same action.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Player’s Handbook, page 46
The character’s alignment is a guide to his basic moral and ethical attitudes toward others, society, good, evil, and the forces of the universe in general. Use the chosen alignment as a guide to provide a clearer idea of how the character will handle moral dilemmas. Always consider alignment as a tool, not a straitjacket that restricts the character. Although alignment defines general attitudes, it certainly doesn’t prevent a character from changing his beliefs, acting irrationally, or behaving out of character.

As OP said, it's pretty sad that so many here are so insistent on dumbing down and streamlining systems they barely understand.

Except alignment might be in theory about intent and beliefs and attitude, but when it is applied as a mechanic, it is all about actions.

Lawfulness and good deeds are the meat and drink of a paladin. If a paladin ever knowlingly performs a chaotic act, he must [...] confess his sin, and do penance [...]. If a paladin ever knowlingly performs an evil act, he loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably. All benefits are then lost [...].

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies).

The problem stems from the fact that we can't know intents and beliefs independently of actions that are evidence for such intents or beliefs. And so trying to apply alignment as a mechanic leads inevitably to debates and disagreements about the interpretation of the intents and beliefs behind actions, since very different intents and beliefs can lead to the same action.

But it clearly implies that unknowingly committing an evil act is something that's redeemable even for a paladin, so the intent definitely does matter.

 

[Shitty Kitty]

extraneous crunch

There is no such thing.

Are you tracking reputation, making mental footnotes of character behavior? Then you've already obviated it. But you really want that field on your character sheet, I guess. To imply that it's a tool implies that it does anything worth a damn.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

extraneous crunch

There is no such thing.

Are you tracking reputation, making mental footnotes of character behavior? Then you've already obviated it. But you really want that field on your character sheet, I guess. To imply that it's a tool implies that it does anything worth a damn.

If it makes the game more difficult to get into I'd track number of breaths taken on a character sheet.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Allow me clarify things for you all:

Lawful: Prefers order. This may be someone who lives by an oath, abides authority, or is extremely rational.

Chaotic: Prefers latitude to make discretionary decisions over a framework.

Good: Prefers altruistic methods and ends. Avoids or even prevents harmful ends.

Evil: Employs harmful means or pursues harmful ends.

Neutral: No preference or habit toward either approach. It may be either regarding methods, morality, or neither.

If the action is difficult to classify from a moral perspective, and you start arguing relatives, its likely L/N/C Neutral action. People overlook the morally neutral alignments all of the time, when it would settle many of the arguments. Consider the immigrant alien dilemma offered up.

If the aliens were simply relocating, they would be LN. Once they have to cause harm in order to relocate, they become some variant of Evil. Additional information would be needed to further classify. The paladin with the kill switch is LN if the aliens were committing no harm in their migration and LG if they are. Not complicated.

 

[Ismaul]

Player’s Handbook, page 46
The character’s alignment is a guide to his basic moral and ethical attitudes toward others, society, good, evil, and the forces of the universe in general. Use the chosen alignment as a guide to provide a clearer idea of how the character will handle moral dilemmas. Always consider alignment as a tool, not a straitjacket that restricts the character. Although alignment defines general attitudes, it certainly doesn’t prevent a character from changing his beliefs, acting irrationally, or behaving out of character.

As OP said, it's pretty sad that so many here are so insistent on dumbing down and streamlining systems they barely understand.

Except alignment might be in theory about intent and beliefs and attitude, but when it is applied as a mechanic, it is all about actions.

Lawfulness and good deeds are the meat and drink of a paladin. If a paladin ever knowlingly performs a chaotic act, he must [...] confess his sin, and do penance [...]. If a paladin ever knowlingly performs an evil act, he loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably. All benefits are then lost [...].

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies).

The problem stems from the fact that we can't know intents and beliefs independently of actions that are evidence for such intents or beliefs. And so trying to apply alignment as a mechanic leads inevitably to debates and disagreements about the interpretation of the intents and beliefs behind actions, since very different intents and beliefs can lead to the same action.

But it clearly implies that unknowingly committing an evil act is something that's redeemable even for a paladin, so the intent definitely does matter.

Of course, but that's only to clear up the exceptional case where a paladin is acting without control of his actions, and everyone at the table knows it (because he's under control of an external influence, a spell or some such).

 

[Alienman]

You can have both. Like in Pathfinder, I can't remember any point where I was judged on the alignment I was, it was my actions that defined what people thought about me (my character that is).

Then why retain that fixture? If you're mapping reputation, alignment becomes borderline meaningless (or worse, fourth-wall breaking meta-gaming bullshit).

Because it's a charming aspect of DnD? It has gameplay aspects as well, the whole Paladin/cleric thing, or that certain spells are designed around the alignment.

 

[Poseidon00]

As a narrative tool and a character guideline, it works great. As a narrative tool it works because enforcers of order aren't just enforcing the arbitrary laws of governments and kings, but cosmic and divine order that will quite literally change the nature of the world and the people in it if allowed to get too strong. Same goes for chaos, good, etc.

As a character guideline it works because it gives newbies a very simple set of basic ethical rules to follow for roleplaying. Be lawful, be good. Simple shit even for a normie. People well versed in the lore are already thinking far beyond that and the alignment they end up picking is an afterthought at best.

A poster is named Poseidon00

Is he a massive fucking faggot or just pretending to be one?

Poseidon00 says Twink Rights

 

[Shitty Kitty]

You can have both. Like in Pathfinder, I can't remember any point where I was judged on the alignment I was, it was my actions that defined what people thought about me (my character that is).

Then why retain that fixture? If you're mapping reputation, alignment becomes borderline meaningless (or worse, fourth-wall breaking meta-gaming bullshit).

Because it's a charming aspect of DnD? It has gameplay aspects as well, the whole Paladin/cleric thing, or that certain spells are designed around the alignment.

Aligned spells are a thing, yes - though it would be interesting to watch the apparent do-gooder Cleric suddenly whip an undead creature up and see how that little conversation turns out (assuming the cleric in question isn't just a retard). As for charming, I personally am drawn more towards things like the notion of being part of a story, perhaps one about underworld intrigues and rooting out conspiracies, perhaps one about a get-rich-quick scheme gone horribly awry, perhaps one about bringing a horrific wrongdoer to justice either at the tip of a spear or before a court.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Player’s Handbook, page 46
The character’s alignment is a guide to his basic moral and ethical attitudes toward others, society, good, evil, and the forces of the universe in general. Use the chosen alignment as a guide to provide a clearer idea of how the character will handle moral dilemmas. Always consider alignment as a tool, not a straitjacket that restricts the character. Although alignment defines general attitudes, it certainly doesn’t prevent a character from changing his beliefs, acting irrationally, or behaving out of character.

As OP said, it's pretty sad that so many here are so insistent on dumbing down and streamlining systems they barely understand.

Except alignment might be in theory about intent and beliefs and attitude, but when it is applied as a mechanic, it is all about actions.

Lawfulness and good deeds are the meat and drink of a paladin. If a paladin ever knowlingly performs a chaotic act, he must [...] confess his sin, and do penance [...]. If a paladin ever knowlingly performs an evil act, he loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably. All benefits are then lost [...].

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies).

The problem stems from the fact that we can't know intents and beliefs independently of actions that are evidence for such intents or beliefs. And so trying to apply alignment as a mechanic leads inevitably to debates and disagreements about the interpretation of the intents and beliefs behind actions, since very different intents and beliefs can lead to the same action.

But it clearly implies that unknowingly committing an evil act is something that's redeemable even for a paladin, so the intent definitely does matter.

Of course, but that's only to clear up the exceptional case where a paladin is acting without control of his actions.

From the 2E PHB

If a paladin should ever knowingly and willingly perform an evil act, he loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably.

Unknowingly committing an evil act is not the same as knowingly committing one ergo intent is important.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

cRPGs that show you another character's alignment(including your own party member's alignments) as a statistic are doing it completely wrong. Your character's alignment is for you and the DM.

That doesn't work in Forgotten Realms though. Alignment has metaphysical ramifications. There are literally spells and abilities which have effects dependant on the target's target's predispositions.

Outside of them telling you(they may lie) and a know alignment(or similar) spell, you shouldn't be able to know. And the latter can be shielded against through various means if one is intent on deceiving.

That's what a Know Alignment spell does though. It tells you dispositions. Lawful are less likely to lie, Good are less likely to harm, etc. There are spells which can shield these or project a false aura. What you're asking for is how it has always worked. What players do with that information (like killing CE creatures on sight) is a different matter.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

cRPGs that show you another character's alignment(including your own party member's alignments) as a statistic are doing it completely wrong. Your character's alignment is for you and the DM.

That doesn't work in Forgotten Realms though. Alignment has metaphysical ramifications. There are literally spells and abilities which have effects dependant on the target's target's predispositions.

Outside of them telling you(they may lie) and a know alignment(or similar) spell, you shouldn't be able to know. And the latter can be shielded against through various means if one is intent on deceiving.

That's what a Know Alignment spell does though. It tells you dispositions. Lawful are less likely to lie, Good are less likely to harm, etc. There are spells which can shield these or project a false aura. What you're asking for is how it has always worked. What players do with that information (like killing CE creatures on sight) is a different matter.

I think you misunderstood my statement.
Alignment should exist, it's just not something that should readily be available for you to know other than your own character's alignment. Even if a companion joins your party you shouldn't be able to see their alignment when viewing their statistics.
If you wish to know their alignment there are ways of doing so as described by the rules.

 

[Ismaul]

From the 2E PHB

If a paladin should ever knowingly and willingly perform an evil act, he loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably.

Unknowingly committing an evil act is not the same as knowingly committing one ergo intent is important.

The point is you aren't a mind reader so you can't know intent. Except in a mind-control case where someone does something unknowingly, and you know it was not his intent because it basically wasn't him that did the deed. Everything else is based on actions.

 

[Poseidon00]

The point is you aren't a mind reader so you can't know intent. Except in a mind-control case where someone does something unknowingly, and you know it was not his intent because it basically wasn't him that did the deed.

Whether nor not the gods are mind readers, I can't say. But I am sure they know the intent of their devout followers who they share a link with.

 

[Ismaul]

The point is you aren't a mind reader so you can't know intent. Except in a mind-control case where someone does something unknowingly, and you know it was not his intent because it basically wasn't him that did the deed.

Whether nor not the gods are mind readers, I can't say. But I am sure they know the intent of their devout followers who they share a link with.

But it's not the gods that judge, they don't exist. It is other players.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

That doesn't work in Forgotten Realms though. Alignment has metaphysical ramifications. There are literally spells and abilities which have effects dependant on the target's target's predispositions.

It's just another layer of reactivity in this case.

Playing an evil knight? You get to use the evil greatsword of choas +5

Playing a good sorcerer? You get to cast the good sorcerer spell or resist X or whatever.

It's a reward for playing your character a certain way and reactivity to make you feel your choices matter.

You guys would probably streamline out all the stats if we gave you enough time.

I'm getting major "why can't we have muscle wizards???" retardation vibes off of this thread.

Alignment should exist, it's just not something that should readily be available for you to know other than your own character's alignment. Even if a companion joins your party you shouldn't be able to see their alignment when viewing their statistics.
If you wish to know their alignment there are ways of doing so as described by the rules.

Yep. Casting a spell or whatever.

And even then, as I said, it won't tell you everything about them or what they will or won't do.

An evil character hasn't necessarily killed anyone. A good character isn't necessarily a pacifist or above a crime of passion.