A eulogy for Alignment in CRPGs

[mondblut]

Luke Skywalker would be another example.

Lolwut? Jedi are epitome of "lawful".

Generally speaking it's always been a fairly shit idea though; mechanically it does a bunch of unfun and world breaking shit with spells that can detect evil. Detect truth has the same problem really. In a world where you can't get away with deception, you've basically gutted a huge number of potential character archetypes. Who the fuck is going to join team bad guy when anyone worth their salt can spot you easily and you're KOS as a result?

That was addressed just a few days ago in a different thread:

Magic proliferation goes both ways. That's why you also don't get to cast Charm Person left and right to make kings and fair maidens do your bidding. Everyone gets the Amulet against player characters who think they're clever +3 as a gift on their first name day.

The first thing someone does after someone else invents a spell to detect truth, is inventing a spell that allows lying through your teeth undetected.

 

[Skinwalker]

Sustaining the satanic system is the purpose.

In their insane view, yes, but this is fundamentally chaotic because it implies that there is no greater-scale purpose for the system to exist, which means that it's random.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Lolwut? Jedi are epitome of "lawful".

Lolwut? One of their best known abilities is lying to people. Their mere existence is outlawed. Luke in particular doesn't even obey his own teachers, let alone the government. Of the 5 Jedi in the OT, 3 are hobos, one randomly kills subordinates when he gets angry and doesn't honor his promises, and the only one who is arguably lawful is the emperor, but he's barely a character so we can't say.

The first thing someone does after someone else invents a spell to detect truth, is inventing a spell that allows lying through your teeth undetected.

Sure, that works great if the good guys are too retarded to use dispel magic, and the fanatical paladins don't force suspected criminals to show up on hallowed ground and touch the Object of Melting Evil People's Skin Off. Who is inventing these evil spells and items to begin with? Obviously not the good guys. If the good guys have an entire magic academy with hundreds of years of history, libraries and collections of artifacts and equipment, how the fuck is a self taught rogue wizard getting better magic than them?

This is like arguing that a society of vampires could exist when everyone knows all their weaknesses because they're just too clever and nobody would be suspicious of all the incredibly weird shit that entails.

 

[mondblut]

Lolwut? One of their best known abilities is lying to people. Their mere existence is outlawed. Luke in particular doesn't even obey his own teachers, let alone the government.

"Lawful means obeying the government" is about the most retarded and simpleton take on alignments. Paladins are outlawed in Baator, too, that doesn't make them "chaotic". Luke starts as an impulsive kid (because of course he is) and his whole character arc is about reining in his temper and reaching zen. That's the sum of jedi training, ffs!

Of the 5 Jedi in the OT, 3 are hobos, one randomly kills subordinates when he gets angry and doesn't honor his promises, and the only one who is arguably lawful is the emperor, but he's barely a character so we can't say.

Nice lumping jedi and sith together, lol

Sure, that works great if the good guys are too retarded to use dispel magic, and the fanatical paladins don't force suspected criminals to show up on hallowed ground and touch the Object of Melting Evil People's Skin Off. Who is inventing these evil spells and items to begin with? Obviously not the good guys. If the good guys have an entire magic academy with hundreds of years of history, libraries and collections of artifacts and equipment, how the fuck is a self taught rogue wizard getting better magic than them?

Who said only "good guys" have magic academies? And who said the wizards from the good guy academy don't have secrets of their own to keep? Them not exactly getting along with the church and paladins is among the oldest tropes in fantasy.

 

[Damned Registrations]

"Lawful means obeying the government" is about the most retarded and simpleton take on alignments.

Lawful means obeying authority. Whether that's government or a corporation or your jedi master. Obiwan said fuck that shit and taught his own student before he was ready. Luke said fuck that shit and ran off before finishing training. Yoda's background isn't explained but he's blatantly a chaotic swamp goblin hermit that deceives Luke about his father and eschews all contact with other people.

Who said only "good guys" have magic academies?

Well, the bad guys tried to make a magic academy, but they're selfish so the students stole everything and teachers refused to teach others properly. Because they're evil. Do you also want to know why the bad guys don't run soup kitchens and orphanages? The concept of a big evil organization doesn't really work all that well to begin with, much less one focused around powerful people aiding weak people.

And who said the wizards from the good guy academy don't have secrets of their own to keep? Them not exactly getting along with the church and paladins is among the oldest tropes in fantasy.

Yes, because in most fantasy, people don't have the ability to magically check if you're a good person or not, so suspicion is justified. There's no reason for wizards to not get along with paladins when the paladins can ask the wizard "Hey you ever murder someone?" and get a truthful answer certified by literal gods.

 

[mondblut]

Lawful means obeying authority. Whether that's government or a corporation or your jedi master.

Lawful means believing that rules and order are good for the society. Lawful has never meant bending over for every tinpot dictator yelling "respect mah authoritee!" at any given moment.

Well, the bad guys tried to make a magic academy, but they're selfish so the students stole everything and teachers refused to teach others properly. Because they're evil.

Is this a "hurr durr joke's on them, i was only pretending to be retarded" moment?

Do you also want to know why the bad guys don't run soup kitchens and orphanages?

You probably haven't talked much to those who were raised in an orphanage. The opportunities for abuse and exploitation are almost... intoxicating. Just ask Jimmy Savile, the guy was big on charity

Yes, because in most fantasy, people don't have the ability to magically check if you're a good person or not, so suspicion is justified. There's no reason for wizards to not get along with paladins when the paladins can ask the wizard "Hey you ever murder someone?" and get a truthful answer certified by literal gods.

And that's precisely why wizards would invent spells to make literal gods look the other way.

Did it ever occur to you that even the good paladins from one country might have something to hide from good paladins of another country, because their countries' interests are not entirely aligned?

 

[Damned Registrations]

Lawful means believing that rules and order are good for the society.

Lawful evil characters give zero fucks about what is good for society. But sure, for a lawful good character this fits. So your argument is that Yoda is an evil tinpot dictator and his students were completely justified in ignoring his wishes, after going so far as to accept him as their master? Bravo.

Did it ever occur to you that even the good paladins from one country might have something to hide from good paladins of another country, because their countries' interests are not entirely aligned?

No because paladins would openly fight people they're at odds with, not lie about shit.

Paladins and clerics literally lose all their fucking powers if they don't adhere to their code of ethics. There aren't any secret paladin conspiracies. That's beyond retarded.

nd that's precisely why wizards would invent spells to make literal gods look the other way.

Again, who the fuck is teaching this wizard? You can't have a strong society where the core ideals are lying, backstabbing, coercion and theft. That doesn't make any fucking sense. There's a reason gangs sell drugs to homeless people instead of researching stealth aircraft to smuggle goods with.

You could, at best, argue a priest might get granted such a power without needing a teacher... but how the fuck is a weak acolyte of the god of fucking lies going to get anywhere in the world unless the good guys are blind and retarded? You realize that the first time your uber wizard/priest that was born at level 20 says something that contradicts another person's account of events the entire fucking world will realize he's a liar and justifiably decide he's to be killed on sight?

 

[mondblut]

Lawful evil characters give zero fucks about what is good for society.

Lawful evil characters believe that rules and order are good for their power and profit.

So your argument is that Yoda is an evil tinpot dictator and his students were completely justified in ignoring his wishes, after going so far as to accept him as their master? Bravo.

And your argument is that the jedi are chaotic because they don't bow to teh authority of the emperor. Bravo.

No because paladins would openly fight people they're at odds with, not lie about shit.

Paladins and clerics literally lose all their fucking powers if they don't adhere to their code of ethics. There aren't any secret paladin conspiracies. That's beyond retarded.

Different good deities have different codes of ethics, and some aren't opposed to a little subtlety. That might be shocking in your universe of world government united in a singular purpose, I know.

There's a reason gangs sell drugs to homeless people instead of researching stealth aircraft to smuggle goods with.

There must be a reason gangs sell drugs to homeless people instead of clubbing them over the head and taking their smelly underwear because anything more complex than that is supposedly teh hard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine

Is that stealth aircraft enough for you?

 

[Damned Registrations]

And your argument is that the jedi are chaotic because they don't bow to teh authority of the emperor. Bravo.

Or maybe it's that they're not obeying their teacher, who they promised to obey because they were being taught incredibly dangerous powers. I might have mentioned that multiple times.

Different good deities have different codes of ethics, and some aren't opposed to a little subtlety.

Only because people love the thief with a heart of gold trope. In reality, a priest of such a god would be about as popular as gypsies in nazi germany.

There must be a reason gangs sell drugs to homeless people instead of clubbing them over the head and taking their smelly underwear because anything more complex than that is supposedly teh hard.

Yes, the belongings of homeless people are totally equivalent to the artifacts stored at an ancient magical academy. Boy, you got me. If it's not worth stealing dirty rags, why would anyone try stealing a priceless spellbook or scroll?

Is that stealth aircraft enough for you?

That's pretty cool, but a stealth bomber costs literally 500 times as much, so no. That's like comparing a home made go kart to a ferrari.

 

[Skinwalker]

Jedi are supposed to be lawful good, but they sit around and do nothing as the republic descends into a dictatorship.

Sith are obviously chaotic evil, except for when they need to obey the idiotic "rule of two", which mandates that there can be no more than two sith at any time, a master and his apprentice, until the apprentice grows strong enough to betray and kill his master. Then he must take his own apprentice and train him until he's strong enough to betray and kill him too.

So, essentially, the sith are extremely selflessly devoted to selfishness, and very loyal to betrayal. Until Palpatium comes along and goes "nah fuck that shit, I'll just rule the galaxy forever and switch out my junior sith for a better/younger specimen whenever I can".

Needless to say, this is pure retardation.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Sone of these fashion trends with dirty looking hole ripped jeans and other shit look like homeless clothing. I wouldn't doubt stained and dirty crap becomes a fashion. What's that old fashioned worn wood look people go gaga over? I see it every so often in ads and magazines.


Pray having hordes of rats doesn't become the popular norm.