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A eulogy for Alignment in CRPGs

Cross

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I rather liked Pillow's Disposition system as a replacement for alignment, although the first game handled it rather poorly. One of the few things it did that felt like an all around improvement.
I too enjoy role-playing as a character who has a reputation for being honest and dishonest at the same time.
There is no dishonest disposition, because dishonest means low honesty.
And generally there's opposed dispositions.
There's a 'deceptive' disposition, which is the same thing as being dishonest.

Dispositions do not oppose each other, meaning that no matter how many 'deceptive' options you pick, it won't affect your 'honest' disposition. Like everything else in Pillows, it's a toothless, shallow system.
 

RaggleFraggle

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I'm a bit baffled why people aren't seeing those examples as being on an order-chaos axis. They represent order/chaos as reflected in those various domains - what's the problem?
Individualism versus collectivism and nature versus civilization are neatly equivalent to order versus chaos? Hmm… Is a small peaceful collectivist structured village living in harmony with nature orderly or chaotic? Is a big empire ruled by psychotic selfish individualist nobility that despoils nature orderly or chaotic?

How come in Ancient Egyptian religion (which was one of the many mythological influences on Stormbringer), the chaos/nature god Seth is an ally of Ma’at (truth/justice/order) who fights the demon/antigod Apophis every night?
 

gurugeorge

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I'm a bit baffled why people aren't seeing those examples as being on an order-chaos axis. They represent order/chaos as reflected in those various domains - what's the problem?
Individualism versus collectivism and nature versus civilization are neatly equivalent to order versus chaos? Hmm… Is a small peaceful collectivist structured village living in harmony with nature orderly or chaotic? Is a big empire ruled by psychotic selfish individualist nobility that despoils nature orderly or chaotic?

How come in Ancient Egyptian religion (which was one of the many mythological influences on Stormbringer), the chaos/nature god Seth is an ally of Ma’at (truth/justice/order) who fights the demon/antigod Apophis every night?

The system isn't about the structures of those types of things in themselves (although it can be, like a faction or a place can have an alignment), it's about the individual character and what they're drawn to.

If you're drawn to nature as opposed to civilization, then the alignment system says you're somewhat towards chaotic alignment. Could it be just as easily the other way round? No, because nature is chaotic relative to civilization (because more complex and unfathomable), and civilization is orderly relative to nature (because simpler, with easily understood rules). It's true that if you go deeper, then nature is orderly, but that sort of scientific understanding is unavailable at the relevant "grain." (Consider how we say mutation is "random" - well obviously it's not random at all, every single mutation has a mechanistic cause, whether some copying error or a stray neutrino or whatever. But it's random, i.e. chaotic, from the everyday point of view, because we simply don't have sufficiently fine-grained access to know all those mechanistic changes in detail.) Note how Druids are considered Neutral: that's quite right, because the Druid has a deeper (magical) knowledge of Nature, so understands that it's a blend of chaos and order, good and evil, and tries to maintain the balance.

With a peaceful collectivist structured village living in harmony with nature, since it has elements of both order and chaos (presuming it's something like an anarchist commune separating itself from the wider civilization), it's neutral. So again, it would depend on what aspect the character is drawn to - are they drawn to the fact that it's separate from the larger civilization and carving its own path? Then the character's alignment with respect to that thing is chaotic. Are they attracted by the order and harmony? Then the character's alignment with respect to that thing is orderly, love of order. With the empire it's the same (although that's also related quite strongly to the good/evil axis) - what aspect of the thing is the character drawn to?

And the picture of the character is drawn up as an average leaning or weighting from all those choices.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Note how Druids are considered Neutral: that's quite right, because the Druid has a deeper (magical) knowledge of Nature, so understands that it's a blend of chaos and order, good and evil, and tries to maintain the balance.
Druids are associated with neutral alignment because they were created in the supplements for original Dungeons & Dragons to fill the gap between lawful clerics and chaotic anti-clerics. In OD&D's single-axis alignment system, lawful & chaotic were nearly indistinguishable from good & evil. Gygax decided that the association of druids with nature was a fitting concept for a cleric subclass restricted to neutral alignment, since nature in itself is neither good nor evil, having no morality.

However, this association of druids with neutral alignment was then carried forward into Advanced Dungeons & Dragons by having druids restricted to true neutral alignment even though this no longer necessarily made sense, depending on the exact conception of the new lawful-chaotic axis. If lawful alignment is defined by adherence to civilization and the artificial, then chaotic alignment would be defined by adherence to nature and the natural, and druids should be of chaotic alignment, possibly even restricted to chaotic neutral, not true neutral (supported by the depiction of several of the Outer Planes). On the other hand, if lawful and chaotic alignments are defined in a way irrelevant to nature, then druids could still be associated with a balance, limiting any tendency to good, chaos, evil, or law. One might even link the supernatural with chaotic alignment, while connecting lawful alignment with the determinism and reliability of natural laws, in which case nature and druids should be lawful rather than chaotic or neutral!
 

gurugeorge

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If lawful alignment is defined by adherence to civilization and the artificial, then chaotic alignment would be defined by adherence to nature and the natural, and druids should be of chaotic alignment, possibly even restricted to chaotic neutral, not true neutral (supported by the depiction of several of the Outer Planes). On the other hand, if lawful and chaotic alignments are defined in a way irrelevant to nature, then druids could still be associated with a balance, limiting any tendency to good, chaos, evil, or law. One might even link the supernatural with chaotic alignment, while connecting lawful alignment with the determinism and reliability of natural laws, in which case nature and druids should be lawful rather than chaotic or neutral!

As I said in the previous post, the artificial/civilization being on the side of order vs. nature being on the side of chaos is a relative relationship between the two (planned street vs. jungle type thing), but nature in and of itself is a balance between ordered and chaotic aspects (a jungle has both - it has regularities and unpredictable aspects both), just as it's got both good and evil aspects (good and evil being relative to the well-being of particular creatures). But even if you take the civilization vs nature balance, it's not like the Druid is totally unconnected with civilization either (they can act as a link between humanity and nature).

Maybe people are expecting too much from an alignment system? If you want to be specific, then you could have a bazillion axes going into nitty gritty detail about every dichotomy or polarity in the universe, and you could predict a character's next move to a tee; but I don't think alignment is meant to be that specific, I don't think you are expected to be able to "read off" every single choice the character might make from that initial choice of alignment - after all, they can drift, they can change, over time.
 
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I always thought the Lawful/Chaotic axis is rather pointless in regard to sentient beings. Humanity always tends toward order. Most characters spend their entire lives living within an established order and even those railing against the status quo merely want to substitute it for their own ideal. A druid maintaining nature's balance is lawful (especially where dieties are involved). The lord issuing slash and burn edicts from his manor is lawful. These orders are in conflict with each other, but they both remain forms of order nonetheless.

I struggle to think of a personality that would fit into chaotic outside of a character with severe mental issues or paranoia and even the paranoids/schizos are still technically striving for order though for them it's unattainable. I think a Civilized/Uncivilized axis would serve most systems better.
 
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Mercenaries? Bandits? Raiders?
Mercs = You pay me money, I kill your enemies. Contracts are legal documents.
Bandits = A bandit ceases to be a bandit as soon as he puts down roots, builds a castle and starts taxing his gang for protection. Again, if they could they would enforce their own laws, rapine though they'd be. Most of the time they don't get to that point so, of the three you might consider them closest to chaotic.
Raiders = A profession usually beholden to a Jarl or Khan or some other savage hierarchy. They have their own laws for their own kind.
 

Harthwain

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Mercs = You pay me money, I kill your enemies. Contracts are legal documents.
Sure, as long as contracts are followed. However, just because you're hired won't make you lawful. Is a bandit who got hired to be a bodyguard a lawful person? Are mercenaries any less chaotic, because they... well, profit from war and chaos and are willing to fight for any side that pays more? I guess we have different definitions of "chaotic" here.

Raiders = A profession usually beholden to a Jarl or Khan or some other savage hierarchy. They have their own laws for their own kind.
So raiding as such isn't a chaotic act in your eyes?

Bandits = A bandit ceases to be a bandit as soon as he puts down roots, builds a castle and starts taxing his gang for protection.
That's very optimistic of you (and a very strange hill to die on), to assume that a common bandit is capable of "building a castle" and "putting down roots".
 
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Sure, as long as contracts are followed. However, just because you're hired won't make you lawful. Is a bandit who got hired to be a bodyguard a lawful person? Are mercenaries any less chaotic, because they... well, profit from war and chaos and are willing to fight for any side that pays more? I guess we have different definitions of "chaotic" here.
A bandit who gets hired as a bodyguard is no longer a bandit, but does he become lawful? No, it just shows what he actually is, which is neutral (neutral evil). He's just as comfortable with either job as long as he's profiting.
Mercenaries, I would never consider to be chaotic, they operate at the behest of their paymasters for coin, can have their own codes, choose which contracts they wish to take etc. They rely on an authority to back their actions or else they'd just be at the mercy of anyone and everyone.

We probably have different definitions. My definition of chaos is basically acting on whims, randomness. The opposite of order. There seems to be consistency in some of the older descriptions of Chaotic alignments in D&D linking them to arbitrariness, Chaotic Evil is unable to accomplish much due to them constantly seeking to murder each other on a whim, Chaotic Neutrals being just as likely to burn down an inn to solve an infestation of rats as to go out and buy rat poison just cuz. (I'd argue this is just evil but whatever.) This is not consistent with Chaotic Goods who just seem to be against the man telling 'em what to do. This is partly why I don't care for the Law/Chaos axis.

So raiding as such isn't a chaotic act in your eyes?
Raiding is usually to achieve some other goal so no. Maybe I need to take a bunch of prisoners to get intel, so I raid an enemy base. Maybe I'm just raiding an enemy to accrue wealth for my own civilization. I suppose if I was raiding because I enjoyed it that would be chaotic. The act of raiding would not necessarily make a character lawful or chaotic.

That's very optimistic of you (and a very strange hill to die on), to assume that a common bandit is capable of "building a castle" and "putting down roots".
That's the way it tends to turn out in RPGs. I just raided a giant bandit fortress not three weeks ago. Regardless, bandits are out for coin, if there's an easier way to get it and they're capable of achieving it they'll go for it as per your bodyguard hypothetical.
 

gurugeorge

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Raiding is usually to achieve some other goal so no.

That doesn't necessarily connect it to order or rule-following. You can have a goal on a whim, and and even act towards it capriciously (i.e. move towards it in zig-zag fashion).

One simple way of looking at the difference is via the Kantian principle: doing good because it feels right or makes you feel good to help others (or even, purely altruistically, because you want to see them happy), vs. doing good because that thing you're doing is the good thing to do. The latter would be lawful good, the former chaotic good.
 

Cross

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I always thought the Lawful/Chaotic axis is rather pointless in regard to sentient beings. Humanity always tends toward order. Most characters spend their entire lives living within an established order and even those railing against the status quo merely want to substitute it for their own ideal.
You would have a point if most people who play D&D chose to role-play as peasants. But they obviously don't. They role-play as adventurers and creatures who occupy different positions on the law-chaos spectrum. Some classes, like a thief, are inherently chaotic, since their basic skill set involves burglary, vandalism and breaking and entering. Even animals recognize concepts like property and territory. A succubus who disguises as an attractive woman to seduce mortal men is participating in society, but she's obviously acting chaotically, not lawfully.
 

Nortar

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Some classes, like a thief, are inherently chaotic, since their basic skill set involves burglary, vandalism and breaking and entering.

There are alighment restricted classes, but rogue is not one of them.

What class would you pick to play a character, like, say, Sherlock Holmes; not a fighter or a wizard, I hope?

If anything, thieves more then anyone have tendency to organize themselves.
Ever heard of thieves guilds? The Mafia is the very example of lawful organization even if it profeteers on breaking laws.

And the part where KörangarTheMighty is wrong is thinking that a singular action defines alignment.
A single good deed won't redeem a villain; and tossing a coin to make desicion what to have for dinner won't turn a paladin into chaos-spawn.
 

Harthwain

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A bandit who gets hired as a bodyguard is no longer a bandit, but does he become lawful? No, it just shows what he actually is, which is neutral (neutral evil). He's just as comfortable with either job as long as he's profiting.

Mercenaries, I would never consider to be chaotic, they operate at the behest of their paymasters for coin, can have their own codes, choose which contracts they wish to take etc. They rely on an authority to back their actions or else they'd just be at the mercy of anyone and everyone.
Isn't a bodyguard-turned-bandit chaotic though? My point is: if a person is willing to resort to robbing people in order to earn a living, then he's chaotic regardless of his actual occupation. This would be different with a bodyguard who becomes a soldier sworn to obey his superiors' orders. Similarly to how a knight who serves his liege lord. You could argue that a guy who joins a mercenary company is no different, but mercenaries uphold no law or order as such: they are there to fight wars, meaning they are more likely to be agents of chaos and discord. Especially if it pays more to do so.

We probably have different definitions. My definition of chaos is basically acting on whims, randomness. The opposite of order. There seems to be consistency in some of the older descriptions of Chaotic alignments in D&D linking them to arbitrariness, Chaotic Evil is unable to accomplish much due to them constantly seeking to murder each other on a whim, Chaotic Neutrals being just as likely to burn down an inn to solve an infestation of rats as to go out and buy rat poison just cuz. (I'd argue this is just evil but whatever.) This is not consistent with Chaotic Goods who just seem to be against the man telling 'em what to do. This is partly why I don't care for the Law/Chaos axis.
Hm... My definition of chaos would be to follow whims and own desires at expense of anyone and anything else (law and order in particular) - if you decide to work to whomever pays more, then you're doing it for your own desire of enrichment. Otherwise you'd be fighting for the side that "rightful" (for one reason or another).

Raiding is usually to achieve some other goal so no. Maybe I need to take a bunch of prisoners to get intel, so I raid an enemy base. Maybe I'm just raiding an enemy to accrue wealth for my own civilization. I suppose if I was raiding because I enjoyed it that would be chaotic.
But by this logic Goblin or Orc raiders are lawful too, because they also have their own hierarchy and goals... With this approach this kind of alignment has no purpose as you can attribute some form of hierarchy/order/organization to everyone and their mother. Except people are not lawful just because there is hierarchy/order/organization in place. Similarly to how people break the established rules when driving when they're on the road.

To me raiding is an act of chaos, especially considering the goal (of raiding). I mean, how is the Mongol Invasion in any way lawful when it's just conquest by the force might and the rule of the strong(er)? We're not talking about proving a hereditary claim to the crown here (which would be akin to the Hundred Years' War) that could be theoretically presented as an lawful act (even at cost of peace). I think the argument of "Just and Unjust Wars" can be applied here, to an extent.

The act of raiding would not necessarily make a character lawful or chaotic.
I am not so certain. Aren't people's decisions what defines them in the end?
 
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RaggleFraggle

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As I said: if we can’t agree on the definition of the alignments, then it’s probably not the best mechanic.

I don’t think you need a bazillion axes. The six axis system I mentioned before is probably sufficient for most purposes.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Maybe people are expecting too much from an alignment system? If you want to be specific, then you could have a bazillion axes going into nitty gritty detail about every dichotomy or polarity in the universe, and you could predict a character's next move to a tee; but I don't think alignment is meant to be that specific, I don't think you are expected to be able to "read off" every single choice the character might make from that initial choice of alignment - after all, they can drift, they can change, over time.
Aside from RaggleFraggle, no-one is proposing a higher-dimensional alignment system; the goal is to create a better lawful-chaotic axis than the one that exists in AD&D, to satisfy three criteria:
  1. Coherence: As described in my earlier posts, Gary Gygax's formulation of lawful and chaotic alignments for AD&D are a mishmash of concepts that, while having some overlap or correlation with each other, are still somewhat distinct concepts that fail to mesh well enough to form a coherent whole
  2. Orthogonality: The lawful-chaotic axis should be independent of the good-evil axis, which is more or less the case in AD&D
  3. Importance: The lawful-chaotic axis should rival the good-evil axis for importance to behavior and metaphysics in the campaign setting, which is questionable in AD&D, really only accomplished by compressing various semi-distinct concepts into an unharmonious whole
For example, if one were to create a campaign setting inspired by Thief: The Dark Project and Thief II: The Metal Age, the lawful-chaotic axis would associate lawful with civilization and the artificial as exemplified by the Hammerites, while chaotic would be associated with nature and the natural as exemplified by the Pagans. This in itself has sufficient importance to define factions in the setting, is orthogonal to good and evil (Garrett confronts a chaotic evil villain in the first game, followed by a lawful evil villain in the second game), and is coherent since defined narrowly using just one of the seven sets of opposing concepts identified in an earlier post. If one were to create a campaign setting inspired by Arcanum, it would make sense for technology versus magic to constitute an axis, even if these were not identified as lawful and chaotic.
 

Harthwain

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Aside from RaggleFraggle, no-one is proposing a higher-dimensional alignment system; the goal is to create a better lawful-chaotic axis than the one that exists in AD&D [...]
I wouldn't mind a morality compass, like the one proposed in Broken Roads:

2.broken-roads-moral-compass-august-2020.jpg

But this is likely too complex to keep track of in tabletop.
 

gurugeorge

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Maybe people are expecting too much from an alignment system? If you want to be specific, then you could have a bazillion axes going into nitty gritty detail about every dichotomy or polarity in the universe, and you could predict a character's next move to a tee; but I don't think alignment is meant to be that specific, I don't think you are expected to be able to "read off" every single choice the character might make from that initial choice of alignment - after all, they can drift, they can change, over time.
Aside from RaggleFraggle, no-one is proposing a higher-dimensional alignment system; the goal is to create a better lawful-chaotic axis than the one that exists in AD&D, to satisfy three criteria:
  1. Coherence: As described in my earlier posts, Gary Gygax's formulation of lawful and chaotic alignments for AD&D are a mishmash of concepts that, while having some overlap or correlation with each other, are still somewhat distinct concepts that fail to mesh well enough to form a coherent whole
  2. Orthogonality: The lawful-chaotic axis should be independent of the good-evil axis, which is more or less the case in AD&D
  3. Importance: The lawful-chaotic axis should rival the good-evil axis for importance to behavior and metaphysics in the campaign setting, which is questionable in AD&D, really only accomplished by compressing various semi-distinct concepts into an unharmonious whole
For example, if one were to create a campaign setting inspired by Thief: The Dark Project and Thief II: The Metal Age, the lawful-chaotic axis would associate lawful with civilization and the artificial as exemplified by the Hammerites, while chaotic would be associated with nature and the natural as exemplified by the Pagans. This in itself has sufficient importance to define factions in the setting, is orthogonal to good and evil (Garrett confronts a chaotic evil villain in the first game, followed by a lawful evil villain in the second game), and is coherent since defined narrowly using just one of the seven sets of opposing concepts identified in an earlier post. If one were to create a campaign setting inspired by Arcanum, it would make sense for technology versus magic to constitute an axis, even if these were not identified as lawful and chaotic.

I can see the sense in having more specific axes tailored to particular game contexts, sure; but I still don't really see the problem with the two "classic" axes as general alignments, cashed out slightly differently in different contexts in different games.

Consider: if a game were set in nature only, would the "lawful" pole lose all meaning? Surely not, you could still have potentially lawful leanings - e.g. towards the rules of a Druid order, or a Druid character being a guardian of the anabolic processes of nature in preference to the catabolic.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Aside from RaggleFraggle, no-one is proposing a higher-dimensional alignment system; the goal is to create a better lawful-chaotic axis than the one that exists in AD&D [...]
I wouldn't mind a morality compass, like the one proposed in Broken Roads:

2.broken-roads-moral-compass-august-2020.jpg

But this is likely too complex to keep track of in tabletop.
Gary Gygax had noted in the 1979 Dungeon Masters Guide that it was important "to keep track of player character behavior with respect to their professed alignment. Actions do speak far more eloquently than professions, and each activity of a player character should reflect his or her alignment. If a professed lawful evil character is consistently seeking to be helpful and is respecting the lesser creatures, he or she is certainly tending towards good, while if he or she ignores regulations and consistent behavior the trend is towards chaotic alignment (see PLAYERS HANDBOOK, APPENDIX III, CHARACTER ALIGNMENT GRAPH). Such drift should be noted by you, and when it takes the individual into a new alignment area, you should then inform the player that his or her character has changed alignment (see CHANGING ALIGNMENT)". Though the "character alignment graph" was really a diagram that didn't quite make sense; I think it wasn't until the 1987 Dragonlance Adventures campaign setting book that something akin to a proper graph with discrete spaces was presented for tracking alignment, except it was one-dimensional for the good-evil axis (obviously, combining this with the same thing for the lawful-chaotic axis would permit two-dimensional alignment tracking).
 

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