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A problem with RPGs: RPG developers are not well-read in myth and fantasy/sci-fi literature

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
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Oct 7, 2019
Messages
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To sum it up I'd say that games and writing as well as storytelling just isn't a marriage meant to be. Chess does not need a writer, it wouldn't be improved by one and the writer would be constricted in such a way as to produce low quality writing judged by universal standards.

Late to the discussion but I'd like to respond to this. I find your opinion familiar since it's one that I often think intensely about. I mean, I should. After all, I'm wasting the best years of my life chasing this particular dream.

In all honesty, it probably is a fool's errand to try and pursue any kind of literary excellence or artistic vision in video games. Like, why would any sane person bother to do that? Just make a open-world crafting roguelike and rake in millions.

To which I'll say two points in support of why writers should choose games, if they want to.

1. You can't prove a negative like how games can't be improved by writing. Arguably, many games have excelled due to the strength of their writing, nowhere more prevalent than in cRPG land. I mean, look at everybody's favorite subject but least played game: PS Torment. Which is much stronger because of its nonlinerarity than for its actual story.

2. Video games are incredibly young as a medium. Literature has been around since before the invention of paper. It is unfair to compare the two. Unless the world ends, there'll be plenty of time for creators to explore the medium, especially once it becomes more accessible.

I expect a lot of things to be redefined over the next two decades, especially when it comes to the creation of media.

Wonders and horrors, we'll have to see.
 

The Wall

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First post, long time lurker though.

I don't think it is simply the fact they are not well read in traditional fantasy and sci-fi, but that they actively despise it.

Look at The Rings of Power for example, the response to the fan backlash to race swapped elves and strong Galadriel was that Tolkien's work no longer suitable in the modern day, even to the point where LotR was described as being racist. Another example is the proposed Conan TV series where Amazon were supposed to produce a show closely based on Howard's novels. Before it could be developed they hired a female studio head who canned it as soon as she took office, due to the 'toxic masculinity' present in the scripts (closely based on the books). They than replaced it with their disgraceful adaptation of Wheel of Time.

The two examples were of TV, but the exact same type of activists have infested gaming at exec and developer level.
AGREED 1000%. Current mainstream entertainment makers are literally making Enemy propaganda. BUT! There is also beautiful, big but in this WHOLE shituation. Current situation is fertile ground for one or many 21st century BASED new Walt Disneys to blossom, become modern StoryTellers and on ashes of Old build New Empires

And tell Our Story
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
32,032
First post, long time lurker though.

I don't think it is simply the fact they are not well read in traditional fantasy and sci-fi, but that they actively despise it.

Look at The Rings of Power for example, the response to the fan backlash to race swapped elves and strong Galadriel was that Tolkien's work no longer suitable in the modern day, even to the point where LotR was described as being racist. Another example is the proposed Conan TV series where Amazon were supposed to produce a show closely based on Howard's novels. Before it could be developed they hired a female studio head who canned it as soon as she took office, due to the 'toxic masculinity' present in the scripts (closely based on the books). They than replaced it with their disgraceful adaptation of Wheel of Time.

The two examples were of TV, but the exact same type of activists have infested gaming at exec and developer level.
AGREED 1000%. Current mainstream entertainment makers are literally making Enemy propaganda. BUT! There is also beautiful, big but in this WHOLE shituation. Current situation is fertile ground for one or many 21st century BASED new Walt Disneys to blossom, become modern StoryTellers and on ashes of Old build New Empires

And tell Our Story
and who will pay for this?
 

The Wall

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First post, long time lurker though.

I don't think it is simply the fact they are not well read in traditional fantasy and sci-fi, but that they actively despise it.

Look at The Rings of Power for example, the response to the fan backlash to race swapped elves and strong Galadriel was that Tolkien's work no longer suitable in the modern day, even to the point where LotR was described as being racist. Another example is the proposed Conan TV series where Amazon were supposed to produce a show closely based on Howard's novels. Before it could be developed they hired a female studio head who canned it as soon as she took office, due to the 'toxic masculinity' present in the scripts (closely based on the books). They than replaced it with their disgraceful adaptation of Wheel of Time.

The two examples were of TV, but the exact same type of activists have infested gaming at exec and developer level.
AGREED 1000%. Current mainstream entertainment makers are literally making Enemy propaganda. BUT! There is also beautiful, big but in this WHOLE shituation. Current situation is fertile ground for one or many 21st century BASED new Walt Disneys to blossom, become modern StoryTellers and on ashes of Old build New Empires

And tell Our Story
and who will pay for this?
Desire that's burning and growing will pay for it. Desire in people to have break-away civilization from WOKE Empire of Madness

Nothing, techically, engineering wise, in terms of programming possibilities, nothing stops modern based Devs to make modern Fallouts, Arcanums and Morrowinds. That even build on top of those ideas, and make even more alive and fun RPG worlds. COMPLETELY new. Fuck D&D. Create something NEW and as good as D&D was when it was best.

What stops this from happening?
Lack of: Decision+Vision+Organisation

Trust me, money is the least important factor, AMONG IMPORTANT FACTORS
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
32,032
First post, long time lurker though.

I don't think it is simply the fact they are not well read in traditional fantasy and sci-fi, but that they actively despise it.

Look at The Rings of Power for example, the response to the fan backlash to race swapped elves and strong Galadriel was that Tolkien's work no longer suitable in the modern day, even to the point where LotR was described as being racist. Another example is the proposed Conan TV series where Amazon were supposed to produce a show closely based on Howard's novels. Before it could be developed they hired a female studio head who canned it as soon as she took office, due to the 'toxic masculinity' present in the scripts (closely based on the books). They than replaced it with their disgraceful adaptation of Wheel of Time.

The two examples were of TV, but the exact same type of activists have infested gaming at exec and developer level.
AGREED 1000%. Current mainstream entertainment makers are literally making Enemy propaganda. BUT! There is also beautiful, big but in this WHOLE shituation. Current situation is fertile ground for one or many 21st century BASED new Walt Disneys to blossom, become modern StoryTellers and on ashes of Old build New Empires

And tell Our Story
and who will pay for this?
Desire that's burning and growing will pay for it. Desire in people to have break-away civilization from WOKE Empire of Madness

Nothing, techically, engineering wise, in terms of programming possibilities, nothing stops modern based Devs to make modern Fallouts, Arcanums and Morrowinds. That even build on top of those ideas, and make even more alive and fun RPG worlds. COMPLETELY new. Fuck D&D. Create something NEW and as good as D&D was when it was best.

What stops this from happening?
Lack of: Decision+Vision+Organisation

Trust me, money is the least important factor, AMONG IMPORTANT FACTORS
how will you reach your audience?
 

negator2vc

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2017
Messages
341
Location
Greece
how will you reach your audience?
Define "your audience"
Are we talking about the millions of simpletons that are for ex. the main target of big corps
or a smaller refined audience that actually is looking for something other the crap the he receive from the big corps?

I believe that you can reach a smaller (and more refined) audience and still be able to live off the profits of your productions provide you factor the size of your audience vs the cost/time of your productions.

In other words don't go overboard (as many indie do) with for ex. HD 3D assets or super size designs, etc... if your audience cannot cover the cost.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
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Messages
32,032
how will you reach your audience?
Define "your audience"
Are we talking about the millions of simpletons that are for ex. the main target of big corps
or a smaller refined audience that actually is looking for something other the crap the he receive from the big corps?

I believe that you can reach a smaller (and more refined) audience and still be able to live off the profits of your productions provide you factor the size of your audience vs the cost/time of your productions.
by promoting your racist sexist homophobic transphobic gaem on woke social media?
 

negator2vc

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by promoting your racist sexist homophobic transphobic gaem on woke social media?
WHY, seriously WHY people still think that the opposite of woke is NON woke?
And why you think that a game that don't include those elements is racist sexist hobophobic.. etc...?
As for the woke social media you will draw their attention only if you go full woke hatter
Otherwise you will just fly under their woke radar
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
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Sep 4, 2015
Messages
32,032
And why you think that a game that don't include those elements is racist sexist hobophobic.. etc...?
well... because that's exactly opposition you will have to deal with. "where are all blakpipo in your medieval potatoland?!" "where are all stronk sassy wommyn knightz?!" "muh romances!"
 

negator2vc

Scholar
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Messages
341
Location
Greece
And why you think that a game that don't include those elements is racist sexist hobophobic.. etc...?
well... because that's exactly opposition you will have to deal with. "where are all blakpipo in your medieval potatoland?!" "where are all stronk sassy wommyn knightz?!" "muh romances!"
if you don't go full woke hatter on social and your game theme they will ignore you and you can easily ignore them.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
32,032
And why you think that a game that don't include those elements is racist sexist hobophobic.. etc...?
well... because that's exactly opposition you will have to deal with. "where are all blakpipo in your medieval potatoland?!" "where are all stronk sassy wommyn knightz?!" "muh romances!"
if you don't go full woke hatter on social and your game theme they will ignore you and you can easily ignore them.
yeah, just ignore them and they will go away!
 

Falksi

Arcane
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
Messages
11,033
Location
Nottingham
Since Chrono Trigger & FF7's influence drew in so many casuals and set the genre on a path with retardation, it was only ever gonna end with Joe Normie ruining it like they ruin everything.

Nomura and co do things just because it sounds interesting to them. Nevermind the fact that it makes no literary sense. The likes of Chrono Trigger and FF7 coasted on the fact that many gamers didn't know what real storytelling was when they were kids, and now they've grown up and they're all writing their own watered down story of those games which is even worse.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
32,032
Nomura and co do things just because it sounds interesting to them.
still much better approach than "let's repeat same shit again and again without any spark of interest" in modern games. if you are not interested in what you do even himself - how can you expect someone else to like your soulless shit.
 

The Wall

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Zionist Agent
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First post, long time lurker though.

I don't think it is simply the fact they are not well read in traditional fantasy and sci-fi, but that they actively despise it.

Look at The Rings of Power for example, the response to the fan backlash to race swapped elves and strong Galadriel was that Tolkien's work no longer suitable in the modern day, even to the point where LotR was described as being racist. Another example is the proposed Conan TV series where Amazon were supposed to produce a show closely based on Howard's novels. Before it could be developed they hired a female studio head who canned it as soon as she took office, due to the 'toxic masculinity' present in the scripts (closely based on the books). They than replaced it with their disgraceful adaptation of Wheel of Time.

The two examples were of TV, but the exact same type of activists have infested gaming at exec and developer level.
AGREED 1000%. Current mainstream entertainment makers are literally making Enemy propaganda. BUT! There is also beautiful, big but in this WHOLE shituation. Current situation is fertile ground for one or many 21st century BASED new Walt Disneys to blossom, become modern StoryTellers and on ashes of Old build New Empires

And tell Our Story
and who will pay for this?
Desire that's burning and growing will pay for it. Desire in people to have break-away civilization from WOKE Empire of Madness

Nothing, techically, engineering wise, in terms of programming possibilities, nothing stops modern based Devs to make modern Fallouts, Arcanums and Morrowinds. That even build on top of those ideas, and make even more alive and fun RPG worlds. COMPLETELY new. Fuck D&D. Create something NEW and as good as D&D was when it was best.

What stops this from happening?
Lack of: Decision+Vision+Organisation

Trust me, money is the least important factor, AMONG IMPORTANT FACTORS
how will you reach your audience?
Steam at first

At one point, when snowball is big enough, separate store-front should exist. With separate payment-processing, separate banking, separate government, separate culture, separate Civilization

Fuck WOKE. I refuse to live under Dictatorship of Madness. WOKE fucking stinks, I haven't played a single WOKE new game. You have pronouns? You're fucking WOKE Sieg Heiling in my face?! Haha. Fuck you. There is UNLIMITED good old entertainment. I'm good
 

RatTower

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
476
I would argue that being well read in speculative fiction and mythology is more akin to the next great step towards becoming a great writer rather than the base requirement. What I really see as the problem with modern writing(whether in videogame or otherwise) is that its obviously the work of someone with basically 0 life experience. Great authors of the past were all something else besides "authors".
Tolkien was both a philologist and a teacher before he was an author. Conan Doyle besides being a writer was also a physician. Even Sapkowski was a economist and a translator before he was an (asshole) writer. You can tell from their works that their life experiences formed the canvas on which they painted(or wrote if you are not good with metaphors) their works.

Modern writers however, especially the professional ones, have neither that specialized nor general human experience. They are born and buried in big cities that are disconnected from the general reality of the world. Their lives are a series of effects without causes. They do not grow their food or even see it being grown, it just appears on store shelves. They do not make or fix their stuff, they just buy a new stuff from somewhere. They do not even have to deal with their own waste, someone just takes it away if they put it on the sidewalk.
Point being they live their whole lives in an environment that is nothing but effects without causes and causes without effects. A person like that cannot even begin to understand basic literary principle like Chekhov's gun because that is nothing but understanding how cause leads to effect. They cannot really do character development or growth when they themselves never really had to grow past their highschool years. And they absolutely cannot grasp the concept of a plothole because from their perspective the world is full of them, so why shouldn't their stories have them?

A prime example of this would be Outer Worlds where the writers constructed a plot about a impending famine without understanding how food is even grown. The result is a world where humans achieved interplanetary travel, gene editing and anti-gravity but forgot how to make fertilizer. Its obnoxious and stupid but from the perspective of a person who only ever got their food from wallmart its sounds like a small stroke of genius.

A writer like that is not bad because he did not read enough Dostoevsky or Homer but because he skipped over to writing fictional worlds before even getting a grasp on the one he is living in right now.

I encountered a funny example of this yesterday. I read a race description in the character creator of a relatively popular modern RPG. I'm not gonna name names, but the gist of it was this:

There is a tribal race in this fantasy setting that lives in boreal regions.
It is specifically stated that the main hunters of this tribe are women.

Now, of course, I can already hear the social media space bemoan my terribly chauvinist criticism: How dare I make an issue out of such a wonderful and fresh idea?
Well, the reason is that it's complete rubbish. Tribal societies do not send out their childbearing population to fight wild animals.
To anyone with a fleeting interest in ancient history, it should be very obvious why:
A tribe of a hundred men and ten women probably dies within one generation.
A tribe of a hundred women and ten men can theoretically recover and thrive during the same time.
You cannot risk losing women in a small society. In fact, even a slight surplus of men can cause a lot of trouble. But let's not even go that far (if you are interested, see China's current Sex-ratio imbalance).

Of course, people will then say: "Oh, so you have no problem with giant flying lizards and old men casting spells, but female hunters, that's too far?"

And the answer is: Yes.
Because those other things were authentically established in the framework of that specific reality. There are so many (often incredibly boring) physical and metaphysical explanations as to why magic works in certain scenarios. But as long as it is not stated otherwise, I have to assume that childbearing follows roughly the same "logistics" as in our reality.
Now if you said: In this specific tribe the women are infertile and the queen bee somehow pops out ten babies every other week - that would be something different.

But like this? I mean I won't drop the game because of it, but it's just silly.
 
Last edited:

The Wall

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Whoever plays WOKE games is allowing his Enemy, that openly says: "I'm Your Enemy! Kiss demonic tranny's cock! Now say 2+2=5 or you'll have bullet inside your head", to program his mind

Whatever you see now as WOKE, isn't final form. It will 100.00% keep growing. It's in infinity loop of ever growing madness and hatred towards You. There is NO nuance, multi-layered, complex 4D situation. They want you dead. Plain and simple. Not even in chains. They fucking will twerk on your grave. Unless you, first mentally, then physically separate yourself from WOKE Empire
 

The Wall

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Also I believe controversy should be spice of any good marketing campaign. Snowball (read:artificially create from socket accounts) outrage that gets picked up by game journos how for example your game doesn't have 80% black characters (new Industry standard, set by: Starfield). And pronouns are missing too, sacre bleu!

Allow game journos and Twitteratis to enter their infinity retardation loops, and MANY gamers who otherwise wouldn't hear about your game, now will

Your response as Game Dev? Give single public statement: "We just wanted to make fun, challenging and thought-provoking RPG about [insert main Game's topic(s)]". That's it. That's all. And don't cave in, do not change anything in patches

Watch your game climb Steam TOP SELLERS chart like Mountain Everest had elevator staircase
 

The Wall

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Of course, people will then say: "Oh, so you have no problem with giant flying lizards and old men casting spells, but female hunters, that's too far?"
Midwits. Only certified™ Midwits use this argument. Dreaded 110-120IQ. The fact that every alternative reality is derived from this reality completely escapes them. Only so smart people can convince themselves to believe in such stupid things. Not new phenomenon. Ancestors throughout ages have in saved writings moaned and complained about Midwits
 

v1c70r14

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I mean, look at everybody's favorite subject but least played game: PS Torment. Which is much stronger because of its nonlinerarity than for its actual story.
When was the last time someone praised Planescape: Torment for being a great game? People are always recommending it thanks to the non-conventional context, in which rats are a high level enemy and succubi are chaste, the ultimate enemy being your own mortality, being somewhat novel in the fantasy RPG genre. They do so with the caveat that the game part of this ordeal isn't very good.
Video games are incredibly young as a medium.
So how many thousands of years do we have to wait until they get good? Kidding aside, games have been around for as long as the spoken word, same as storytelling and stringing words together in aesthetic and meaningful ways. There were dice around 3000 years before Christ, and probably much further back than that. You'd think we would have a pretty good handle on what makes a game good or not at this point.

Games going digital hasn't changed much and it is not a new artform.
 

The Wall

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If you can't see fundamental difference between Ghotic 2/Fallout and sudoku/poker/chess, then you're just arguing for sake of being right
 
Joined
Jul 15, 2022
Messages
429
To sum it up I'd say that games and writing as well as storytelling just isn't a marriage meant to be. Chess does not need a writer, it wouldn't be improved by one and the writer would be constricted in such a way as to produce low quality writing judged by universal standards.

Late to the discussion but I'd like to respond to this. I find your opinion familiar since it's one that I often think intensely about. I mean, I should. After all, I'm wasting the best years of my life chasing this particular dream.

In all honesty, it probably is a fool's errand to try and pursue any kind of literary excellence or artistic vision in video games. Like, why would any sane person bother to do that? Just make a open-world crafting roguelike and rake in millions.
I always enjoyed the little choices and consequences RPGs had to offer, but with time I found interactive fiction and realized that a normal RPG can never execute a truly intriguing and branching story. The constraints of gameplay and visual elements are simply too limiting. A writer can create spectacular castles and mountains with a stroke of a pen, whereas a visual game has to have artists painstakingly create everything either in 3D or 2D.

It is precisely because developers and their Hebrew overlords seek to create universal consumer products that modern RPGs turn out to be an indistinct grey mass - shit gameplay, shit story, shit visuals, shit audio. One can focus only on one thing if he seeks to perfect it. This universal product alá Skyrim, which supposedly offers a bit of everything, is an abomination.

I came to the conclusion that combatfaggs on Codex are essentially right: developers should stop obsessing over retarded story aspects, romances, and so on in RPGs. Good, branching stories should be left to interactive novels. They can actually do them justice.

Out of all the genres of video games, RPGs suffer from an identity crisis the most.
 

Iucounu

Educated
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Jul 4, 2023
Messages
985
And why you think that a game that don't include those elements is racist sexist hobophobic.. etc...?
well... because that's exactly opposition you will have to deal with. "where are all blakpipo in your medieval potatoland?!" "where are all stronk sassy wommyn knightz?!" "muh romances!"
if you don't go full woke hatter on social and your game theme they will ignore you and you can easily ignore them.
yeah, just ignore them and they will go away!
Yes, that's the solution. The only reason we hear about these lunatics is because Social Media companies boost their visibility artificially, while others give them undeserved attention.

Consider how much extra exposure Baldur's Gate 3 and Starfield have gained by woke content even on this forum (yet members here apparently still play these games!) and you realize the developers have absolutely no reason to stop doing it. They are literally trolling gamers as part of the marketing.

I don't see this ending as long as gamers keep giving visibility to these games: first by complaining about the trailers, then buying the games anyway, then keep complaining about them while playing and for years after. It would be better to give the few good games more exposure, both in game forums and in our own heads...
 

Reinhardt

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Messages
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Yes, that's the solution. The only reason we hear about these lunatics is because Social Media companies boost their visibility artificially, while others give them undeserved attention.
nigga u wot. they already won this culture war thingy and just doing victory laps while twerking in your face. you hear about these things because there is literally nothing you can do about it now. it's ritual humiliation.
 

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