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A problem with RPGs: RPG developers are not well-read in myth and fantasy/sci-fi literature

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
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Story in games shouldn't be a focus to begin with, that's part of the overall decline in the hobby in general. Story should simply be serviceable and always there just to frame the gameplay and the systems that should be the actual focus of the project in question.
Yes, Dungeon Master is the perfect example of where story should exist in a CRPG: in the manual. +M

Tabletop games were first and foremost strategy and tactics games, the whole fun of them was the combat, character building and strategy, which is the appeal of cRPGs as well. Your focus when you played ToEE or Demonweb Pits was not how to portray the backstory and motives of your character, it was building a strong as fuck dude that could manage to kill his way through the module and get the cool loot without getting killed in the process. THAT is what is FUN about RPGs, and always has been.
Exploration and combat have always been the twin pillars of RPGs, and arguably exploration has always been paramount; Dungeons & Dragons itself had fairly abstract combat rules, though some players disliked this and then gravitated towards RPGs that catered to them with more tactical complexity.

It's not just a problem with RPGs. I call this the cannibalization of media: the people who write fantasy books only read fantasy books, the people who make RPGs only play RPGs, and so on. There’s no outside input, so the output ends up being the most generic shit out there. Given how most of those shit sucks, it's garbage in garbage out all the way.
The worm ouroboros

ouroboros-6291969-1280-2470821641.png
 

octavius

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I've been going back and reading the early pulp stuff for a while, and I think one of the major barriers that a modern reader will have, is that the entire mind-set and thinking is different.

The problem I have with most modern Fantasy , is just that the characters don't feel "authentic", but more like people in an antique/medieval setting that think like modern people. I used to be annoyed by the "middle class kids on a picnic" (like Wheel of Time), but I guess it reflected the writers' inability to write more authentic characters. But nowadays it seems to be this attitude that characters in a fantasy setting have to be relatable to "a modern audience", so they have to think like modern, liberal Californians and of course they will have to be "diverse", but the diversity can never be more than skin deep. So "representation" has become more important than things that make things anthropologically and "historical" facts.
 

ropetight

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Fellas, fellas.

It was not the sports or the web.
It was slowly subverting and changing the nature of literary works until there is nothing interesting to the men.
Then, proclaiming that feminine shit is profound and more valuable than its masculine contemporaries and predecessors.
So they can rub your noses in it like dogs that did the naughty in the house.
Naughty, naughty little puppy.

Louis_Cypher mentioned Hugos and Nebulas.
In my youth best novels, ones that got the awards too, were combination of the novel scientific concept and couple unexpected plot twists, with just enough exotic locations and cultures to make it unique.
Now we have emotional feministic explorations of non-binary aliens and female-identifyng AI's; outright feminist genocide/power or rape fantasies are bestsellers and declared seminal works even if they just wear skinsuit of genre.
I'm not into contemporary fantasy, but it seems to be following the same path.

And it is not the women that made this - it was always simps masquerading as rebellious voices that plant the seed of medium downfall and lead the charge of the activists.
One of the male competition strategies is that if you can't confont them directly, you must use other means to turn odds to your favor.
Basically, betas declare virtues as nothing worthy at all, while introducing some new metric fo valuing men accomplishments.
So, there is always some Harlan Ellison that will sing praises about some black gay guy feverish ravings and feminist utopias while bashing giants on which shoulders he is balancing.
After that, Hellgates are wide open.

How do they do it?
Slowly, like boling proverbial frog in the pot - by dilluting symbolism and epic nature by adding more and more elements that are alien to male enjoyment of the story.
It is a fake notion of the western modernism that everything old must be wrong and thus subverted - because everything is so much better after revolution.
Japanese, on the other hand, evolved their genres so you gradually get more nuanced and truly sophisticated works, while basic tenets of genre are still left intact.
(That doesn't mean they are not prone to the modernist crap, it was just majortiy of their industry still produced traditional works).

Let's take the example of women participation in men fields in the fiction.

First you make women exception to the rule, so you have one woman which is equally capable to the men in your story.
This cheap trick makes story your more unexpected, original and modern.
Then, you make women more capable than men, but there is still tits&ass and epic adventures.
We still have our escapist fantasy, so who gives a fuck.
Couple of iterations and you reach The Final Stage - men are nerdy buffons that have only intrinsic value only if they love women unconditionally women in the story.
Ones that are not, are only good as villains, that are also weak and pathetic, made that way not to encourage toxic masculinity in young, uncorrupted minds.

This approach you can apply to any story element, but common ground is - masculine (whatever men enjoy) story elements have to be rendered stupid, childish and obsolete.

This turn of the events is deeply discouraging for the men that enjoy the medium, even if they claim to have open mind and it doesn't bother them.
So, they slowly disconnect from once cherished field; some are reduced to simping and promoting The Message, like their fictional avatars in contemporary fiction.
Some just stop engaging with the works alltogether and live in past/retro works.

It is all motivated by hatred and revenge towards men, and it is not happening by chance.
It is premediated and intentional.
 
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Riddler

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Bubbles In Memoria
Going back to the title i think it's even worse than that, they aren't merely "not well read", they're actively badly read.

Reading urban romantasy or whatever actively makes you a worse writer. It's like thinking that scrolling TikTok somehow would make kids more tech-savvy, or that men who watch a lot of porn are cinephiles because they've watched so many "movies".

The bar for reading making you a better writing isn't astronomically high but wallowing around in the shittiest gutter you can find obviously isnt helpful.
 

Louis_Cypher

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1,994
I've been going back and reading the early pulp stuff for a while, and I think one of the major barriers that a modern reader will have, is that the entire mind-set and thinking is different.

The problem I have with most modern Fantasy , is just that the characters don't feel "authentic", but more like people in an antique/medieval setting that think like modern people. I used to be annoyed by the "middle class kids on a picnic" (like Wheel of Time), but I guess it reflected the writers' inability to write more authentic characters. But nowadays it seems to be this attitude that characters in a fantasy setting have to be relatable to "a modern audience", so they have to think like modern, liberal Californians and of course they will have to be "diverse", but the diversity can never be more than skin deep. So "representation" has become more important than things that make things anthropologically and "historical" facts.
Fantasy needs to have a mythic, symbolic, metaphysical component, or it isn't fantasy at all. The key psychological difference between modernity and ancient or medieval is the existence of a non-subjective metaphysical belief, as opposed to pure materialism or human subjectivity in modernist thinking, which is why works like The Lord of the Rings and Star Wars are fantasy, because they contain the mythic-symbolic, but some contemporary shite full of Californian psychology and dialogue isn't. The dialogue itself isn't the cause of your alienation, but only the symptom, of a contemporary psychology that cannot understand the pre-modern. Star Wars has relatively contemporary dialogue, but isn't at all contemporary in mindset, for example.

That YouTube channel a couple of pages back goes into this quite heavily, although he sees it a little differently from me. In his view, what you are detecting there in "contemporary" fantasy, is an attempt to "elevate" the genre toward naturalism, without anything symbolic, and that more balanced works of fantasy are half contemporary with relatable characters, but half mythic and symbolic. The bad examples you describe, this have almost no presence on the mythological side of the scale, so it might as well be non-fantasy fiction.

As it happens, this one star review of The Wheel of Time by someone called J G Kelly was used as an example:

DTLnAyf.png


Tolkien on the other hand is absolutely a mythic work. I think geeks detect this, and seek it out. But then they mis-attribute it and hit the wrong target. Gobbling up anything that looks like Tolkien, but missing the underpinning symbolic world. Like for example, maybe a weeb detects the mythic-symbolic in Japanese entertainment, lacking it in his own modernist culture, and mis-attributes it to "anything Japanese", ending up reading/watching pure slop anime/manga. Likewise a geek gobbles up any novel/game/TV series with a dragon in it, when they are actually searching for the deeper mythic and symbolic, which virtually no fantasy except Tolkien has. Smaug is an actual dragon. He is more symbol than real. Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion are just materialistic dinosaurs. But in detecting the deeper layer of say Tolkien, they mis-read it as being a component of the contingent transitory elements, and become consumers of a "fantasy" genre in which 90% of the work is non-mythical, contemporary, and might as well not be fantasy.
 

Falksi

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This is one banging thread. I've quoted Chuck Norris's OP in several social media groups since it was posted, and I think his point really separates the men from the boys when it comes to any form of entertainment media.
 

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