A tactical 3E game (shocked)

[triCritical]

I asked this question on the pseudo official ToEE boards,

From what I have read, you have not implemented a hex grid. Which fine because not every game can be perfect... err Fallout.

So will there be a Ground trace ala Jagged Alliance 2 that shows the *exact* path that your character will move (important for AoO's)? I mention JA2 because it turned different colors depending on how many turns it would take to get there. I think a ground trace is very important to a tactical combat game, and I am mad that St. Proverbius lost my tactical questions for the chat (I am not really mad).

I guess the kind of ground trace I am thinking about is one that comes with a color indicator that alerts you to being in range of an AoO and in range of enemies. If you are implementing line of sight, it would be nice to know if you are in or out of the enemies line of sight as well.

and this is the answer I got

Yup! We're still working it out, but currently when you hold down the mouse button, you see the path your character will take to get to the target. If you would incur any attacks of opportunity, they are displayed by a neat little icon, plus an arrow from the threatening monster. If you move the mouse before releasing the button, it's treated as an abort.

I still have to color-code the path so you can tell if it's a five foot step, single move or double move.

I should just have you guys post a task list for me every month happy.gif Everyone can vote on my priorities with money. I'll be your coding whore.

Imagine how lovely its going to be able to play 3E the way it was meant to be played.

[rant]

I have come to the conclusion that 3E is a very combat oriented somewhat tactical rule system. Games like IWD2 and NWN just did not do it justice, IWD2 at least had an excuse. But it seemed that Bioware just kind of glossed over everything that added substance to combat, which is especially puzzling considering that NWN was 98% combat. I am so happy that we will finally have a game that will do justice to the latest DnD incarnation (somewhat latest).

[/rant]

 

[Dan]

I asked this question on the pseudo official ToEE boards

Do you mean the IGN boards?

 

[Jed]

Leave it to good 'ol Tim to do it right. I'm imagining something that looks like the ground trace in Prelude to Darkness...

 

[triCritical]

Do you mean the IGN boards?

Yes, I really don't like the atmosphere and the general pandemonium of that board.

Leave it to good 'ol Tim to do it right. I'm imagining something that looks like the ground trace in Prelude to Darkness...

Its kind of crazy, but the stuff we talked about is stuff that makes sense. Something that makes the game interesting. And frankly I have got used to hearing stuff like no, implementation of that sort of stuff is not so trivial... But no your right, Troika got it right. I am starting to believe that ToEE will be combat heavy, but since the combat looks like it was done right, I am all for it.

 

[Jed]

Of course I'd always rather have a "deeper" CRPG, but a well-done dungeon crawl would be a fun diversion, too. Just look at JA2, which is essentially a dungeon crawl set on a small island nation in more-or-less modern times. Again, while PoR:RoMD has plenty of faults, I still enjoyed it much more than NWN because the combat was implemented much better.

J

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You know, the funny thing about PoR2 is that it shares a lot of it's faults with NWN, and no one managed to bitch about them in NWN. Here's a few I noticed they both share:

• Pointless walking: Admittedly, NWN has that Stone of Recall, but there's still a hell of a lot of pointless walking through areas just to uncover the map to find things. In Witch's Wake, there is no recalling, so you're basically stuck walking everywhere which is monotenous.
• Cumbersome interface: This is really where PoR2 slaps NWN silly. To cast a spell in PoR2, you just have to hit A or D, select the level of the spell, select the spell, select the target, and you're done. That's four steps. In NWN, you have to right click on the character, go to the spell dial, go to the class group of the spell, go to the level of spell, go to the spell, then hit the target. Considering NWN is real time, that's a much more cumbersome process than the turn based PoR2. It's six steps versus four. Both had hot key macroing, but people still bitched out PoR2's interface in how spells were cast manually, so I think the comparason is fair.
• Too much like Diablo: Honestly, this was a complaint about PoR2. Given that it's party based, and turn based, and a dungeon crawl, I'm not so sure that PoR2 is like Diablo. After all, do dungeons make Diablo? If so, then NWN has more in common because even the towns were designed like dungeon, and it's even single player with a Diablo 2 style henchman and real time! Oh, and let's not forget that NWN has that Town Porta... I mean, Stone of Recall.
• Monty Haul!: Okay, PoR2 was set in Myth Drannor, right? We're talking a location in Forgotten Realms that's supposed to be filled with loot. However, it's often hard to find anything magical until half-way through level 1. Level 1 is often deep within that Dwarven Dungeon too. Sure, there's +1 weapons, but that's because they're quality, Dwarven items. In NWN, however, they give you at least one magic item in the damned tutorial. I often make it through the tutorial with three or four magic items, and it takes place in an academy in the middle of a functional, modern FR city which is nothing like the loot-land of Myth Drannor!
• Not enough dialogue: Well, PoR2 takes place in Myth Drannor. Finding living people isn't going to be easy. However, considering NWN takes place in the city of Neverwinter for the first act, there's not a hell of a lot of people to talk to, and very few of them matter more than the occational FedEx quest, going to a location where you've got to go anyway. NWN's dialogue in Act 1 was basically, "Hi! My [brother/friend/other] has disappeared! He had [item] on him, so you can recognise him!" That person was always near the boss monster or some other area filled with critters, and you always had to return that item to that person. Gee, that's so much better.
• Combat too slow: Well, given that BioWare followed the six second rule for NWN, and if you were largely melee, you just got to watch the combat and didn't have much else to do... That always gives me more of an impression of slow, because I'm not participating. It makes me wonder if some people don't see the word "turn based", and automatically scream about how slow combat is. Sure, the animations where slowish in PoR2 and it should have had a movement speed slider, but at least you had to interact with the game during combat more often than NWN did.

It's lame that PoR2 was held under so much scrutiny by reviewers, but many of the things the reviewers knocked PoR2 for, they let slide with NWN. Go figure.

 

[Jed]

It's lame that PoR2 was held under so much scrutiny by reviewers, but many of the things the reviewers knocked PoR2 for, they let slide with NWN. Go figure.

Yeah, but NWN is primarily a multi-player game. And pretty. And has b00biez. Oh, man!

J

 

[Spazmo]

Wait--PoR2 had a Dwarven Dungeon? No, no, no, no, no. <geek> Myth Drannor was an elven city. Admittedly, they eventually opened their doors to the other races (dwarves included) with great reluctance, but that was in order to unite the races to fight a huge goblinoid (that is to say, goblins, orcs, ogres, and the odd troll or giant) army, and the city was destroyed soon after. The short time combined with the pressure of outside opponents would basically prohibit any dwarves from building any dungeons, assuming dwarves could actually secure permission from the elves to build a dungeon in their city at all. It just doesn't work. </geek>

Sorry about that.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Damn.
Spazmo, whats your geek skill in d20, 18?

 

[Spazmo]

21 ranks, and I have a headband of useless trivia that gives me a +3 inherent bonus to Point Out Obscure Mistakes. Plus I can usually take 20, so I make most of my checks.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Wait--PoR2 had a Dwarven Dungeon? No, no, no, no, no. <geek> Myth Drannor was an elven city. Admittedly, they eventually opened their doors to the other races (dwarves included) with great reluctance, but that was in order to unite the races to fight a huge goblinoid (that is to say, goblins, orcs, ogres, and the odd troll or giant) army, and the city was destroyed soon after. The short time combined with the pressure of outside opponents would basically prohibit any dwarves from building any dungeons, assuming dwarves could actually secure permission from the elves to build a dungeon in their city at all. It just doesn't work. </geek>

Sorry about that.

Yeah, it was a five level dungeon/mine area that is near the start of the game. It's now infested with Orcs, Orogs, undead, lizardmen, and so on. There are low level critters in there because the enemy in the game wondered through, cleared it out, and allowed those lower species to exist in there as long as they gather the loot up and give it to the enemy. That's why you don't find all the super magic stuff in that area.

The city was actually destroyed by a mythal spell that trapped everyone in it, I believe. It was supposed to protect them, but ended up dooming them. At least, that's what I got from the game's background tidbits.

 

[Spazmo]

Yeah, that's about right. I don't remember the exact details, i just know it was more or less self-inflicted. I'm pretty sure there was also something about a gate to the Nine Hells and to the Abyss, which doesn't help to improve the nightlife either. Regardless, a dwarven dungeon doesn't fit.