Interview Age of Decadence - Defining RPGs Once Again

[Vault Dweller]

I still don't get why VD did not include unarmed combat as a valid option in hiis game.

I want t o play as a person who carries no weapons, because his body is the weapon. But sadly, I can't. Yet you can play a MA in real life.

So much for realism.

Have I ever said that AoD is, like, the most realistic game, like, ever? Realism was neither the goal nor something to consider.

Again, how would you determine if a company is successful outside of the silly biased nuance of 'me likely their games, yukyuk!, lol'?

Successfull is a very subjective concept, aint it?

For example, Troika managed to make 3 very memorable and distinctive games in 7 years:

Arcanum - one of the finest RPGs ever made
ToEE - RPG light but one of the best TB games plus the most faithful DnD adaptation.
Bloodlines - one of the best (if not the best) action RPG with a fantastic atmosphere

Not bad, eh, Volly? I'd take this success over neo-Bethesda or Bioware-gone-consoles any day.

Remember, Troika went out of business THEY COULDN'T PAY THEIR EMPLOYEES AND NO ONE WOULD PAY THEM TO MAKE GAMES ANYMORE!

Do you think that going all CAPITALS!!! adds more weight to your arguments? No one would pay Troika to make non-mainstream games you said? How shocking!

BIS went under because their OWNER made POOR decisions whichc aused BIS' downfall and failure. This despite previous successes. Hence, ultimiately, BIS was a failed DIVISION.

Are you nuts? If Herve didn't kill BG3 and FO3, which were a year away, BIS would have been a money-making machine. Herve and BIS are two very different entities and shouldn't be confused.

 

[mondblut]

That is because we, the Codex spend unhealthy amounts of time arguing about what qualities a (good) cRPG should have. The two most entrenched factions seem to be c&c (VD) and oldschool dungeon crawl (mondblut).

I don't mind the world responding to player's actions at all, as a matter of fact. In Darklands, you go robbing a bank, get caught, and your reputation in a city decreases, you then insult a passing bishop (an abusive, corrupt and disgusting fag *but* a servant of god nonetheless) and your virtue points plummet. In Daggerfall, you keep sticking it up the mage guild's behind, and the competing whatever guild begins to hate you. This is all well and good, and I have a lot of support to such a responsive gameworld.

The "C&C" meme, however, only means having lotsa dialogue trees with zero gameplay in between. Darklands or Daggerfall had 1000 times more choices and 10000 times more consequences than PST, TWitcher, Arcanum and both Fallouts all combined, but nobody cares since their choices and consequences alike were realized in other forms than clicking on eloquently worded hypertext links and reading eloquently worded responses.

 

[Morbus]

Face the facts, most of these flow charts (including in Fallout) are a waste of time. Where they are relevant to the game they could be much simpler, and there usually are not more than two outcomes to most conversations, ie the success of failure of the reason you started the conversation for.

Indeed. Movies and books and some games are so boring!!! They should just tell you how everyone ended up anyway, why delay what we're there to see? The ending, NOW!!!!

 

[Double Ogre]

Troika didn't die because their games were too "hardcore". All their games had potential to be very popular, but they screwed each game up themselves. They were always late and over budget. Their games always had a ridiculous amount of bugs and cut content. That's why no publisher wanted to sponsor their unannounced title and they had to close the doors.

Additionally, their marketing was really poor. I'll say it again, if Bloodlines was hyped enough, it could have easily become a very popular mainstream game. It really wasn't more complicated than, let's say, Fallout 3.

Let's not make martyrs out of Troika. Sure, they were innovative and had some nice ideas and depth to their games, but they just couldn't get their act together, so it's only logical that after 3 very flawed games that became commercial failures nobody was willing to give them another chance.

 

[Pliskin]

Let's not make martyrs out of Troika. Sure, they were innovative and had some nice ideas and depth to their games, but they just couldn't get their act together, so it's only logical that after 3 very flawed games that became commercial failures nobody was willing to give them another chance.

And Vincent van Gogh never sold any paintings during his lifetime. Does this make him a failure as an artist? Is it only about comercial success? I think the old "Let the Free Market Decide" mantra has taken something of a beating of late --- maybe it's time somebody used something other than $$$ as a gauge of a game's success. How about continued desirability over time? (You know: Would you still hunt up a copy on E-bay and play it 10 years down the line).

 

[Shannow]

Give it up VD. Volly is right. Just look at the Romans. They dominated most of the "known" world for centuries. But where are they now? Of Alexander. He conquered all the "known", civilized world of his age in what? 9 years? But where is that empire now?
Clearly they failed. All of existence is doomed to FAIL. :doom:

I like Volly's worldview. It is so optimistic

 

[Double Ogre]

Let's not make martyrs out of Troika. Sure, they were innovative and had some nice ideas and depth to their games, but they just couldn't get their act together, so it's only logical that after 3 very flawed games that became commercial failures nobody was willing to give them another chance.

And Vincent van Gogh never sold any paintings during his lifetime. Does this make him a failure as an artist? Is it only about comercial success? I think the old "Let the Free Market Decide" mantra has taken something of a beating of late --- maybe it's time somebody used something other than $$$ as a gauge of a game's success. How about continued desirability over time? (You know: Would you still hunt up a copy on E-bay and play it 10 years down the line).

My point is that Troika's commercial failure was the result of their inability to produce relatively bug free products within a set timeline and budget. All their games had potential to sell well, but they screwed it up each time by failing to deliver a polished product.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Troika didn't die because their games were too "hardcore". All their games had potential to be very popular, but they screwed each game up themselves.

Here we go again...

They were always late and over budget. Their games always had a ridiculous amount of bugs and cut content. That's why no publisher wanted to sponsor their unannounced title and they had to close the doors.

Was Arcanum, their flagship title, late, over budget, and with cut content?

Additionally, their marketing was really poor. I'll say it again...

Marketing is done by publishers. What else you've got?

... if Bloodlines was hyped enough, it could have easily become a very popular mainstream game. It really wasn't more complicated than, let's say, Fallout 3.

Fallout 3 was a shooter with RPG elements. 90% of the game is exploring the wasteland, killing, and looting. Bloodlines is a lot more heavy on the dialogues and quests side. Anyway, Bloodlines was released against Half-Life 2. Most people decided to buy HL2 first. Simple as that.

...so it's only logical that after 3 very flawed games that became commercial failures nobody was willing to give them another chance.

Says you?

My point is that Troika's commercial failure was the result of their inability to produce relatively bug free products within a set timeline and budget.

Unlike what studio? Obsidian? Bethesda? Bioware?

Nobody in the gaming business does games that are bug free, on time, and within budgets.

 

[Double Ogre]

They were always late and over budget. Their games always had a ridiculous amount of bugs and cut content. That's why no publisher wanted to sponsor their unannounced title and they had to close the doors.

Was Arcanum, their flagship title, late, over budget, and with cut content?

Yes, it was. E.g. almost half of character animations were disabled in the final few months of development by introducing sprite mirroring (i.e. characters look the same when facing left/right, the sprites just get mirrored). They couldn't solve the performance issues that were occurring on lower end PCs of the time, so they decided to butcher the animations. Luckily, they were lazy enough to remove those extra frames from the actual files, so this was later reversed in the unofficial patch. This is just one example.

My point is that Troika's commercial failure was the result of their inability to produce relatively bug free products within a set timeline and budget.

Unlike what studio? Obsidian? Bethesda? Bioware?

Nobody in the gaming business does games that are bug free, on time, and within budgets.

All of Troika's games were ridiculously bugged. Bloodlines was shipped with a game stopping bug, for fuck's sake.

Oh, and they admitted this themselves, btw.

Looking back, Anderson says, "Publishers aren't interested in games from developers that consistently turn out B titles. Unfortunately, although our games had depth and vision, we were never able to release a game that had been thoroughly tested and rid of bugs. The large quantity of errors in our product automatically rendered them B titles."

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I'd compare it to child's development. A child starts reading kids' books, then teens' books, and then finally progresses to a more serious literature, even if it's sci-fi or fantasy. Well, the problem with the gaming industry is that it keeps producing games that are suitable for the 8-12 age group.

I agree with that, but I don't feel like there's a "wall" between the ages. Some books I read when I was fifteen and looked good then, still look very good now. Conan for instance, was a series of very good fantasy books. I'm happy to have discovered more complex fantasy and way more complex stuff in Sci-Fi, but 25 years later I still think Conan did it right. Sort of like "out of the mouth of babes..."

And I do wish some "serious" and very clever writers could get paid a visit by a 6 feet tall cimmerian, to help them remember that it's not only about being serious and deep. It's also about "getting to the fucking point". In fantasy litterature that would mean action and adventure. In a computer fantasy RPG it means combat and numbers munching.

I sincerely hope AoD will also deliver in the "basic fun" department. Otherwise, it will end-up another Arcanum as someone put it earlier. And that would be a shame.

Best of luck anyway, I'll check on the game when it's released, not matter what. Even another Arcanum would be more than good enough in those times.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Very well nice read. I won't get all excited because it still doesn't have a release date, and I have not played the combat demo yet. That is when we shall see whether it is The One, or just another Arcanum ...

I sincerely hope AoD will also deliver in the "basic fun" department. Otherwise, it will end-up another Arcanum as someone put it earlier. And that would be a shame.

Best of luck anyway, I'll check on the game when it's released, not matter what. Even another Arcanum would be more than good enough in those times.

Did I miss a memo? For years I've naively believed that Arcanum was one of the best RPGs when it comes to role-playing. Would anyone like to explain when it became a mediocre "better than nothing I suppose" RPG?

 

[Claw]

Bloodlines was shipped with a game stopping bug, for fuck's sake.

So? I had the same problem with Morrowind.. and quite a few other games. In MW however the bug was virtually unavoidable - unless one knew about the alternative way of solving the game, skipping the MQ. Most game stopping bugs I know are something that may happen, not something that is guaranteed to happen. Great job, Bethesda.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Bloodlines was shipped with a game stopping bug, for fuck's sake.

So? I had the same problem with Morrowind.. and quite a few other games. In MW however the bug was virtually unavoidable - unless one knew about the alternative way of solving the game, skipping the MQ. Most game stopping bugs I know are something that may happen, not something that is guaranteed to happen. Great job, Bethesda.

What. I'm 100% sure that Morrowind didn't have gamebreaking bugs in the main quest. You must be confusing it with Daggerfall.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Did I miss a memo? For years I've naively believed that Arcanum was one of the best RPGs when it comes to role-playing. Would anyone like to explain when it became a mediocre "better than nothing I suppose" RPG?

Yeah well, it's true that I don't share the Arcanum enthusiasm of these boards. I thought Arcanum was very good in some departments, who had been let out of many other games so it filled a "need". But combat was crap. So I realized while playing it that "extreme social interactions in a very intellectual universe" was not the main thing I was after when I played a fantasy RPG. I played Arcanum twice (tech first, then mage) and that was it. It may seem quite good, but I usually replay games I like more than that. And I'd sooner go for another visit of the Durlag tower than Tarrant. Even if I think Arcanum is way more clever and innovative than BG, it's still a poorer game. Because intelligent too often equals boring, at least for me.

So I plead guilty of choosing "kicking giant spider butts in a gloomy dungeon" over "talking politics with an educated half-orc in a cosy salon de thé". But secretly, I wish I didn't have to chose and could do both.

 

[sqeecoo]

So I plead guilty of choosing "kicking giant spider butts in a gloomy dungeon" over "talking politics with an educated half-orc in a cosy salon de thé". But secretly, I wish I didn't have to chose and could do both.

I hereby sentence you to ten years of poor taste in games.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yes, it was. E.g. almost half of character animations were disabled in the final few months of development by introducing sprite mirroring...

Cut animations and a few items are not a valid example of cut content. Every game has some art that didn't make it in. KOTOR 2 and Fallout 2 had cut content. Arcanum didn't.

All of Troika's games were ridiculously bugged. Bloodlines was shipped with a game stopping bug, for fuck's sake.

What does "ridiculously" mean? I've played all 3 games without any problems. Yes, I'm aware of the bugs in all 3 games, but I wouldn't call them "ridiculously bugged".

KOTOR, for example, had a problem with half of the sound cards, which forced you to disable the sound completely in order to play the game without frequent crashes. The patch was released 3 weeks later.

Oblivion had "white christmas" bug - the game was "playable" but the screen was white. Both NWN2 and Fable 2 had game stopping bugs. NWN1 had a mile long list of bugs despite 5 years of development. The Witcher had plenty of bugs as well. Mass Effect had a major bug when overheated weapons didn't cool down.

So, let's not paint Troika as "teh worst studio evar". If bugs were the reason for their downfall, every other studio would have been dead as well.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I hereby sentence you to ten years of poor taste in games.

Is that ten years in a gloomy prison with spiders ?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yeah well, it's true that I don't share the Arcanum enthusiasm of these boards. I thought Arcanum was very good in some departments, who had been let out of many other games so it filled a "need". But combat was crap.

It was. However, if combat is the most important element, you should play action RPGs and dungeon crawlers. No offense meant.

So I realized while playing it that "extreme social interactions in a very intellectual universe" was not the main thing I was after when I played a fantasy RPG.

What *are* you after when you play fantasy RPGs?

And I'd sooner go for another visit of the Durlag tower than Tarrant.

Dungeon crawlers it is then.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

All this is right. And I play dungeon crawlers so I'm not complaining. I just wish I did not have to chose between good interaction and good combat. Up to now I had to, and indeed I opted for Dungeon crawlers. That's why I'm currently replaying ToEE and not Arcanum nor PST.

But if we leave replay value out of this, then Arcanum is indeed very fine.

As to what I'm after when playing a fantasy RPG ? Well many things, and combat is definitely one of them. And judging from my 25 years of playing, I'm not even ashamed to admit that it comes first. I would not have bet on saying this when I started... yet here I am.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What are your thoughts on PST?

 

[Double Ogre]

Yes, it was. E.g. almost half of character animations were disabled in the final few months of development by introducing sprite mirroring...

Cut animations and a few items are not a valid example of cut content. Every game has some art that didn't make it in. KOTOR 2 and Fallout 2 had cut content. Arcanum didn't.

I don't think you understand. In Arcanum a character sprite has 8 rotations. With sprite mirroring enabled the graphics for 3 of rotations aren't loaded, the sprite just gets mirrored. That means that around 40% of all character art was cut at the last moment. The no longer used animation frames were still shipped with the game, and that includes around 200Mb of inactive content.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yes, it was. E.g. almost half of character animations were disabled in the final few months of development by introducing sprite mirroring...

Cut animations and a few items are not a valid example of cut content. Every game has some art that didn't make it in. KOTOR 2 and Fallout 2 had cut content. Arcanum didn't.

I don't think you understand. In Arcanum a character sprite has 8 rotations. With sprite mirroring enabled the graphics for 3 of rotations aren't loaded, the sprite just gets mirrored. That means that around 40% of all character art was cut at the last moment. The no longer used animation frames were still shipped with the game, and that includes around 200Mb of inactive content.

And?

 

[Double Ogre]

Yes, it was. E.g. almost half of character animations were disabled in the final few months of development by introducing sprite mirroring...

Cut animations and a few items are not a valid example of cut content. Every game has some art that didn't make it in. KOTOR 2 and Fallout 2 had cut content. Arcanum didn't.

I don't think you understand. In Arcanum a character sprite has 8 rotations. With sprite mirroring enabled the graphics for 3 of rotations aren't loaded, the sprite just gets mirrored. That means that around 40% of all character art was cut at the last moment. The no longer used animation frames were still shipped with the game, and that includes around 200Mb of inactive content.

And?

If that isn't cut content, I don't know what is.

Here's a comparison, if you have trouble grasping the concept.

Sprite mirroring ON:

Sprite mirroring OFF:

EDIT: And while we're at it, the other important cut content would be two music tracks, six endings, quite a few dialogs and items, and some graphics and sound effects. All these things were still shipped with the game, but were inaccessible due to bugs/negligence.

 

[Krash]

OgreOgre, I think the immense buglist from your arcanum bugfix would be a far better reason to bash arcanum (and by extension, troika), no? Those animations I can live without (even though the are nice).

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

What are your thoughts on PST?

Very hard to say. PST holds a special place in my gaming world. I replayed it more than the crappy combat deserved. Way more actually. But the world was enough of a mix of clever and cliché to hit home. Same goes for the NPC and the interaction with them. The clever boy in me was fascinated by Dakron's disc and unfolding it, the munchkin in me exstatic when dialogues unleashed better stats for him.

I also loved non-joinable NPC's like Deionarra, and learning more about her through the game, like with her grieving father. So here, the "romantic" writing also hit home.

So all in all the atmosphere was so good that I could forget the crappy combat part to a certain extent.

But there were also what I think were big flaws, like the "memory stones" part where you just click through walls of text for some not so fast XP. Or the attempt at "fast pacing" in the second part of the game.

So in the end PST is, for me, the closest "intelligent RPGs" were to hit the nail on the head but it still missed. And a lot of my love for the game is "emotionnal", because it turned me on. Unlike Arcanum which left me cold both in the combat and in the emotion department. So I would not say that PST is "better" or "more well done" than Arcanum, just more human.

I'm not sure I'm being very clear.

Maybe what I mean is :

Avellone's intellectual approach = Troika's intellectual approach

Avellone's emotionnal approach > Troika's emotionnal approach

Anyway PST is still in a league of it's own.