Preview Age of Decadence R4 Preview at GameBanshee

[Elhoim]

In many parts the game works in ways a lot of people don't like. So I ask what is VD's point to keep arguing when it seems nobodys gonna alter their position and no new information seems to be gained. So this bad design is there to stay and VD likes it the way it is, and he's just talking back not in order to try and take notes from the criticism, but just because he enjoys arguing. Just wanted to clarify that and so I did.

Yes, *some* people don't like the existing design, which doesn't make it 'bad design' by default..

Classic post-Fallout CRPG threshold-based, binary stat checks IS 'bad design' by default, and AoD's entire CYOA design is bad for being built on top of it and taking it to extreme levels.

I mean, almost every change that has been done to the system like the linked skills, the joint stat checks, the reduce stat range to 1-10, everything is done to alleviate the badness of threshold-based stat checks so I figure you are aware of it and only constantly defend it because you can't really do anything major about something so fundamental at this point.

Nope, that's not the reason we are doing. The design is good for us, and those are improvements. In any case, thanks for the opinion.

 

[Excidium]

Right, it's certainly not broken at all. What's the reason AoD is a single character CRPG again?

 

[Vault Dweller]

No matter what VD, I agree with Marsal more and more. This discussion basically hasn't changed for months on months, there's no reason to keep replying if you're not going to change this anyway.

Are you claiming that the game didn't change at all since R1? If you're looking for an excuse to stop arguing, just say so.

 

[Grunker]

Well, you see, such vague comments aren't really helping because I have no idea what you're saying here. I replied to that post earlier, showing the checks in the first two thieves quests. You ignored that post and re-posted yours again.

So, again, you aren't expected to max out any skills (not in the demo or the early access release), so I have no idea what your point actually is.

Sigh, semantics, really? If you want to get technical, I guess what I mean isn't "maxed out" but "so high that focusing on both elements of your game (interaction and combat) is reserved for players who have learned the game by rote."

As I have reiterated over and over and over. Inb4 you say "well you could have said so" when I have stated it until my face was blue.

You know what I mean.

No matter what VD, I agree with Marsal more and more. This discussion basically hasn't changed for months on months, there's no reason to keep replying if you're not going to change this anyway.

Are you claiming that the game didn't change at all since R1?

No, I'm not. I'm saying your attitude is the same. You disagree with the fundamental opinion that tools and options are too split up, so why keep arguing about it?

If you're looking for an excuse to start arguing, just say so.

Pretty rich coming from you bro.

 

[hiver]

No matter what VD, I agree with Marsal more and more. This discussion basically hasn't changed for months on months, there's no reason to keep replying if you're not going to change this anyway.

Nope. It is you guys who should stop making misguided critiques and demand some other type of gameplay and literally - a different type of a game.
Not switch to demands that someone should stop answering you - in ways you dont like, with answers that you dont like - because that someone isnt agreeing with your wrong basic premises.

- in before a poll to bann VD from Codex springs up in Site feedback.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Right, it's certainly not broken at all.

It certainly isn't. Shocking, I know.

What's the reason AoD is a single character CRPG again?

Story-telling.

Well, you see, such vague comments aren't really helping because I have no idea what you're saying here. I replied to that post earlier, showing the checks in the first two thieves quests. You ignored that post and re-posted yours again.

So, again, you aren't expected to max out any skills (not in the demo or the early access release), so I have no idea what your point actually is.

Sigh, semantics, really? If you want to get technical, I guess what I mean isn't "maxed out" but "so high that focusing on both elements of your game (interaction and combat) is reserved for players who have learned the game by rote."

As I have reiterated over and over and over.

As been disputed by other people over and over, like Brandon, Kalin, and Hiver, but what do they know?

 

[Grunker]

As been disputed by other people over and over, like Brandon, Kalin, and Hiver, but what do they know?

What's your point? I obviously don't agree with them.

 

[Vault Dweller]

No matter what VD, I agree with Marsal more and more. This discussion basically hasn't changed for months on months, there's no reason to keep replying if you're not going to change this anyway.

Are you claiming that the game didn't change at all since R1?

No, I'm not. I'm saying your attitude is the same. You disagree with the fundamental opinion that tools and options are too split up, so why keep arguing about it?

As I said before, we tweaked and changed quite a lot. The question is how far do we go (to make you happy)? So, when you keep complaining (and ignoring changes like the split pools and such), forgive me for questioning your position to understand it better.

If you're looking for an excuse to start arguing, just say so.

Pretty rich coming from you bro.

Typo. Meant stop, not start.

 

[Vault Dweller]

As been disputed by other people over and over, like Brandon, Kalin, and Hiver, but what do they know?

What's your point? I obviously don't agree with them.

Obviously. Yet you're fully convinced that you're right and everyone else is wrong, eh?

 

[hiver]

As been disputed by other people over and over, like Brandon, Kalin, and Hiver, but what do they know?

What's your point? I obviously don't agree with them.

Based on what?

just because? who cares that you just dont agree?

 

[Excidium]

Right, it's certainly not broken at all.

It certainly isn't. Shocking, I know.

Well I wonder why more RPGs don't use it. Forcing everything to constantly scale up as the player progresses and removing the possibility of failure from tasks the character is an expert at certainly doesn't have any negative impact on gameplay.

What's the reason AoD is a single character CRPG again?

Story-telling.

What was the other excuse you gave once? That having multiple characters who could cover most of the skillset would make choices merely cosmetic? Something like that.

 

[Grunker]

As been disputed by other people over and over, like Brandon, Kalin, and Hiver, but what do they know?

What's your point? I obviously don't agree with them.

Obviously. Yet you're fully convinced that you're right and everyone else is wrong, eh?

I could ask you the exact same question. There are just as many people agreeing with me.

 

[Vault Dweller]

As been disputed by other people over and over, like Brandon, Kalin, and Hiver, but what do they know?

What's your point? I obviously don't agree with them.

Obviously. Yet you're fully convinced that you're right and everyone else is wrong, eh?

I could ask you the exact same question. There are just as many people agreeing with me.

a) Not quite. We sold over 5,000 copies and judging by the feedback, most - let's say 3/4 - are fairly satisfied with the design. Some even have the nerve to praise it.
b) I'm not convinced that I'm right. In fact, all the changes we've made since R1 was released show that we *are* open to criticism and suggestions and don't think that we know better. It's always easier when most people agree on something. It's harder when they don't. Then you have to be 100% sure before you make any changes that you're fixing a problem rather than accommodating someone's personal preference.

Right, it's certainly not broken at all.

It certainly isn't. Shocking, I know.

Well I wonder why more RPGs don't use it.

Most RPGs peddle heroic fantasy and wish fulfillment.

Forcing everything to constantly scale up as the player progresses and removing the possibility of failure from tasks the character is an expert at certainly doesn't have any negative impact on gameplay.

Scale up? Removing the possibility of failure? Tasks the character is an expert at? Care to be a bit more specific?

What's the reason AoD is a single character CRPG again?

Story-telling.

What was the other excuse you gave once? That having multiple characters who could cover most of the skillset would make choices merely cosmetic? Something like that.

Why do you feel that it's an excuse? Did I promise to make a party-based game and then changed my mind?

 

[Grunker]

a) Not quite. We sold over 5,000 copies and judging by the feedback, most - let's say 3/4 - are fairly satisfied with the design. Some even have the nerve to praise it.

I'm satisfied with the game. As I think I have said multiple times. If sales meant anything, I should absolutely love the game. I bought it for myself and three members of my family.

b) I'm not convinced that I'm right.

I'm pretty sure I am, but obviously I am not beyond convincing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Thank you for your support.

 

[tuluse]

Scale up? Removing the possibility of failure? Tasks the character is an expert at? Care to be a bit more specific?

It feels like 90% of the time failure at a skill check means reloading the game, if not outright death.

Most games let you recover from a failure, regroup, try a new strategy, and come back and attempt the problem again.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'd say that most checks do exactly that - let you recover from a failure and try something else, unless the situation requires stronger consequences. I agree that R1 was too heavy-handed and dying was way too easy, but we've changed it. So, can you be more specific? Which checks didn't let you recover?

 

[Dorf]

I just starting playing it in ernest last night and I found the exact problem people are talking about. I am playing an assassin, so in essence I try to avoid straight up fair fights, and instead use cunning and guile to get by, but I have a problem. I am stuck. My character is not good enough to solve the quest lines I have open by combat, nor is he skilled enough in any one thing that will succeed all the skill checks needed to complete the quest. It fustrating since I started doing exactly what the reviewer said, and that is loading an earlier save and fiddling with my skills to pass the skill checks. So, the game is training me to craft the correct kind of assassin. I love the story and the writting, but the RPG elements are limited when you fail every skill check branch and have no options left but to reload.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I just starting playing it in ernest last night and I found the exact problem people are talking about. I am playing an assassin, so in essence I try to avoid straight up fair fights, and instead use cunning and guile to get by, but I have a problem. I am stuck. My character is not good enough to solve the quest lines I have open by combat, nor is he skilled enough in any one thing that will succeed all the skill checks needed to complete the quest. It fustrating since I started doing exactly what the reviewer said, and that is loading an earlier save and fiddling with my skills to pass the skill checks. So, the game is training me to craft the correct kind of assassin. I love the story and the writting, but the RPG elements are limited when you fail every skill check branch and have no options left but to reload.

Can you be more specific?

Stats? Skills? Quests completed? Quests stuck on?

 

[tuluse]

I'd say that most checks do exactly that - let you recover from a failure and try something else, unless the situation requires stronger consequences. I agree that R1 was too heavy-handed and dying was way too easy, but we've changed it. So, can you be more specific? Which checks didn't let you recover?

The finale thief mission in Teron is really unforgiving and checks a bunch of skills I had not had to use prior to it. My character had high enough sneak, steal, and lockpick to get through all prior missions, with just at touch of disguise and streetwise.

With literally no points spent on combat skills, I figured the subterfuge route was by best bet. So I get through the disguise check (I think it's really low if you made the forgery). Then I get a streetwise or persuade check. I have no persuade, and my streetwise is 3. Fine I fail that. Move along, and I have to do a steak+sneak attack check. I have no points in sneak attack at all. Why would I? I was a ghost up to this point.

Also, a whole bunch of the thieves guild is out to help carry off the gold, but for some reason they send me, a guy who probably can't even figure out which end is the sharp end, to kill the guard before stealing the gold.

I've also complained before about the lack of feedback on the 4 steal checks in a row for the gold. It seems pointless and just a way to trap players. I would change to one check that tells you how many of the crates you were able to steal. So steal 5, you get all of them, steal 4, you were only able to get 3, etc.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'd say that most checks do exactly that - let you recover from a failure and try something else, unless the situation requires stronger consequences. I agree that R1 was too heavy-handed and dying was way too easy, but we've changed it. So, can you be more specific? Which checks didn't let you recover?

The finale thief mission in Teron is really unforgiving and checks a bunch of skills I had not had to use prior to it. My character had high enough sneak, steal, and lockpick to get through all prior missions, with just at touch of disguise and streetwise.

This mission changes based on the first quest. If you helped Flavius, he will deal with the mob. If you have the real mandate, you can get past the mercs, etc. So, how did you handle the first quest?

With literally no points spent on combat skills, I figured the subterfuge route was by best bet. So I get through the disguise check (I think it's really low if you made the forgery). Then I get a streetwise or persuade check. I have no persuade, and my streetwise is 3. Fine I fail that. Move along, and I have to do a steak+sneak attack check. I have no points in sneak attack at all. Why would I? I was a ghost up to this point.

A thief without any sneak skills? What were your skills in general if your streetwise was 3 by the time you hit the third quest?

I've also complained before about the lack of feedback on the 4 steal checks in a row for the gold. It seems pointless and just a way to trap players. I would change to one check that tells you how many of the crates you were able to steal. So steal 5, you get all of them, steal 4, you were only able to get 3, etc.

I'm not sure it's a good way to handle it (way too passive). The way we did it, you decide if you should go for another crate and if you aren't quiet enough, you can either fight or use the tunnel and bring it down.

 

[tuluse]

Ugh, brain fart. I meant critical strike all the times I wrote "sneak attack".

I had 4 or 5 in sneak (I think I went up to 5, couldn't get through, stayed at 4 and invested in critical strike to take the guy out).

I stole the real mandate. Getting past the mercs was fine, but there is still the one guard, who I couldn't deal with without either higher social skills or combat skills than I had.

I'm not sure it's a good way to handle it (way too passive). The way we did it, you decide if you should go for another crate and if you aren't quiet enough, you can either fight or use the tunnel and bring it down.

Well what I did was keep clicking steal until I failed, then reload and either make sure I have enough steal points or stop after the last one I succeeded at. You get the same text about the last successful steal whether or not the next one will be successful. I think a hint that the player is about to get caught isn't out of order.

Also, I think I died trying to bring the tunnel down, but I don't remember now.

 

[Dorf]

I just starting playing it in ernest last night and I found the exact problem people are talking about. I am playing an assassin, so in essence I try to avoid straight up fair fights, and instead use cunning and guile to get by, but I have a problem. I am stuck. My character is not good enough to solve the quest lines I have open by combat, nor is he skilled enough in any one thing that will succeed all the skill checks needed to complete the quest. It fustrating since I started doing exactly what the reviewer said, and that is loading an earlier save and fiddling with my skills to pass the skill checks. So, the game is training me to craft the correct kind of assassin. I love the story and the writting, but the RPG elements are limited when you fail every skill check branch and have no options left but to reload.

Can you be more specific?

Stats? Skills? Quests completed? Quests stuck on?

Hmm.. Okay.. I will try to summarize.

So, started the game and one of the first thing was to kill a merchant. I did that and got a scrap of paper which turned out to be a map. I went to Feng and he analyized the map for a 100 imperials. Then wanted another 100 for this eye thingy to read the map. I didn't have another 100 so he sent me off to kill a rival Loremaster that just arrived in town. I went to the Inn and talk to the Loremaster and decided to take him to the Lord, I forget his name. So, I am stopped at the gates by some captain of the guard who takes charge of the Loremaster. I want to see the Lord, but the Guard Captain wants me to do a couple things for him before I can see the Lord Antidas(?) Anyway, one is a bandit camp with a prisoner and another is a rival city army is digging in some ruins. I am suppose to go find out what the deal is with both.

I start with the thief camp. I talk to the leader and I get a great story about some dangerous and mysteriaous cave etc, etc... and then we get around to the prisoner. He wants a 1000 imperials for "protecting" him all this time. The camp has like 6-7 guys so there is no way I can fight it out and I don't see any sneak break free option so I leave. I go back to the captain and tell him the situation. I try to convince him to pay the randsom and I fail. I then am asked if there is anything I can do, which there isn't but I decide to go back and talk to the guy again. Nothing... no dialogue option. So I go back and talk to the captain again and my only option is to take the mission fail and have him attack the bandit camp which losses prestigue and doesn't get my any closer to the Lord. So, instead of tweeking my skills and try it agian I press on.

I check out the mining camp. I fail to bluff my way in as the machinist. I fail to sneak in, though I succeed in the sneak check I constantly fail the climb check for the walls. I can't talk my way in or fight my way in, so I head back to the city to figure out how they are getting supplied. I pay more money of which I have little left now to find out some guy in shanty town is supplying them food. Which is wierd, since if you are supplying such a large outpost of soldiers and miners food and water you would think you are not so poor to be living in a lean-too in shanty town. Anyway, I confront the guy and blow my first check. So now I have to bribe him but he wants 100 imperials, Again I don't have that, so I try to tlak him down to 20. I fail again, so now my only option is somehow find more money, which I am not sure how I can do that since I am near broke and everyone wants me to do things for them as payment instead of paying me to do things. So, I decide to kill him. For no armor and only a knife he puts up a hell of a fight and nearly kills me, but I get him down. I take his clothes and poison the wine that is to be delivered. I then have to deliver it. But wait! Another check for bluffing past the guard. FAIL. So, now I have no option of completing the mission successfully. So, I can't get in good with the Captain to see the Lord to look at my map. And I can't go back to Feng since I turned him for trying to kill the other Loremaster. I don't know what I am suppose to do next. I am apparently not skill enough in anything to get past the checks I need to make.

I was thinking why I couldn't just secretly drug the wine without the guy knowing and he would deliver it for me, but I never got that option. Anyway, I am looking at starting the game over and skilling differently so I can pass the skill checks I need to make.

I have like a 3 in dagger and 4 in dodge and a beggar nearly kills me. My non-combat skill are 2 in steal and sneak and a 3 in persuasion. I have about 14 skill points in reserve to spend. You wold think having a skill of 2 or higher for the first couple mission should be more than sufficient, but the climb check is based off of STR+DEX which never changes so my climbing always sucks. I am jsut gonna put my steal and sneak into streetwise. THen maybe skill up sneak.

 

[Elhoim]

I don't know what I am suppose to do next. I am apparently not skill enough in anything to get past the checks I need to make.

Join a faction, that's the fastest and more reliable way of getting skill points.

 

[t]

Ok as much as I understand some of the objections, it's absolutely beyond me how anyone can say that skill check failure equals death or reload in AoD. Sure, I reloaded a bunch in those cases because I wanted to check what could've been, but I have also went with the flow, and AoD seems particularily good for such approach. While playing a mercenary who decided to become a thief while lacking any thieving skills I botched a couple of quests and still finished the beta with ease.

Also, to provide (meaningful) choices, you have to also restrict making different ones. If you can do everything, as is the case in the vast majority of RPGs, the choices are meaningless or LARPing at best. The graph with the connections between every node is isomorphic to the graph with no connections at all.