-
Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.
"This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
Preview Age of Decadence R4 Preview at GameBanshee
- Thread starter Infinitron
- Start date
Gozma
Arcane
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 2,951
I TOL YALL BOUT THEM SHITTY LOLZ SKILL LEVEL DESCRIPTIONS. I TOL YALL
Having really clear, simmy, and consistent skill levels is how you can (maybe) penetrate the "hoard points, gameplay is handling the point economy" player mind-state. Don't even use cute one-liner skill descriptions, give a little vignette about what fast-talk 3 means, and be rigorous about being consistent with that in the game.
Last edited:
Complete waste of time. The game is about choosing a linear strategy and adhering to that at all times. The system punishes you brutally for trying anything else. It's basically unsupported.
Hybrids are technically doable for experienced players, but only in the way that Usain Bolt could probably outrun a newbie with his shoelaces tied together.
Chaotic_Heretic
Arcane
Excidium
P. banal
He probably dislikes AoD's lack of actual choice.
Seems like you missed the posts where I praise AoD and find enjoyment in playing it. You must have been reading too much RPG Codex if you think criticism automatically equals "game is shit."
Here's my essential attitude towards AoD, 6 pages ago: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...view-at-gamebanshee.88659/page-6#post-3025631
I am extremely critical of some very flawed design decisions at AoD's core. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the game or the effort it reflects.
wat
My favourite thing about Age of Decadence is the CYOA emphasis. It is one of the core things that saves the game from mediocrity and elevates it into something very interesting and unique.
I'm sort of "O_o" that you would agree there, Rake. Where exactly do I say "the problem with Age of Decadence is that it has a CYOA emphasis?" ffs, my entire criticism revolves around the issues I have with the way the character system and the CYOA elements work together.
Criticizing a cat for not being a dog = "AoD is shit 'cause CYOA is shit"
Criticizing a dog for being a shitty dog = "AoD has issues with its implementation of its CYOA mechanics"
So yeah, I don't at all get how I've contradicted myself here.
Last edited:
Rake
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2012
- Messages
- 2,969
Grunker Sorry i didn't made it clear. I agreed with the first part of his post.
For all your dog & cats comparisons, i have seen you many times complain that AoD locks you in a spesific way of solving problems and punishes you if you try something else, as opposed to something like Deux Ex.
But i believe that this is a conscious choice from VD and not something that happened by accident. So he believes his way is superior and having multiple ways to solve problems doesn't offering real choice if all choices are equaly viable regardless of your character's skills.
So it looks to me that you disagree with his design philoshophy and not with a bad implementation of the said design. But since i haven't followed AoD discussion very closely, i may have misinterpreted your posts. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.
For all your dog & cats comparisons, i have seen you many times complain that AoD locks you in a spesific way of solving problems and punishes you if you try something else, as opposed to something like Deux Ex.
But i believe that this is a conscious choice from VD and not something that happened by accident. So he believes his way is superior and having multiple ways to solve problems doesn't offering real choice if all choices are equaly viable regardless of your character's skills.
So it looks to me that you disagree with his design philoshophy and not with a bad implementation of the said design. But since i haven't followed AoD discussion very closely, i may have misinterpreted your posts. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.
Kalin
Unwanted
I think you're wrong there, the game generally rewards such builds in its own way, and you needn't be an expert to make them work. Decent social stats and skills like persuasion and streetwise (and to a lesser degree, trade and disguise) allow balanced characters to either resolve situations peacefully or at the very least make fights more manageable (Aurelian Outpost, Tower of Zamedi, Maadoran slum encounters, Thief guild missions, Noble's package quest, Darius' Tomb, etc).
Also, there is critical content that only becomes available to characters with balanced stats. For example, a pure talker that disregards strength, dexterity and constitution in order to max out intelligence, perception and charisma cannot gain access to Antidas' treasure. Granted, you probably need to have some experience to pull it off since the checks are a bit too high (although the skills do fit a more active Loremaster nicely). Further, only balanced characters can pull off a certain amazing stunt in the Abyss.
The only thing I can think of that really punishes hybrids in the current build is the Hamza fight that you get as an Imperial Guard (which really should allow talky characters to convince Pavola to send some extra manpower). As it is, it pretty much forces you to betray your faction, and while betrayal can be profitable and fun, it really should not be required. Beyond that, however, hybrid characters are perfectly viable - they won't be able to talk every single NPC into everything or slaughter every single group of enemies, but they will definitely be able to get ahead and profit nicely, at least as long as you weigh your options carefully.
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 28,044
What choice would that be? The famous 'deciding how to approach objectives regardless of your actual skills' choice?
I don't think that my way is superior (it's a personal preference), but yes, my criticism of the Deus Ex design is that skills aren't part of the equation. You do what you feel like and many people find it appealing (in an action game it's a very refreshing feature even today).
As for AoD, clearly, you can play a hybrid and many people have done it and posted rather convincing videos, but you do have to know what you're doing and understand how the game is designed.
The linear design of AoD's tools (i.e. the either/or choices it often presents you with) are at odds with the games CYOA design, which seemingly attempts to let you attempt to overcome obstacles in the way you choose. AoD is, at its core, a game that tries to be about choice, in everything. It tries to present you with a lot of options and then let you decide how to tackle issues. The linearity of strategies and mechanics in the CYOA clash pretty significantly with this aim. When you first boot up AoD, you think "all these options, all these backgrounds, all these tools!" and you try to put together something that appeals to you. What you quickly find out is that this variety is largely an illusion in the way that AoD rewards linear strategies without the combining of different tools. You can't try out a multitude of different strategies, because only a narrow selection will work. Or, at least, a narrow selection will be significantly better than others.
So no, I am not saying games demanding maximization of your choices in the character system are shitty by default (i.e. you want to use Skill X, better max it), I am saying that this linearity in the system is at odds with the basic mechanics of the CYOA.
The result is that after a while you don't feel rewarded for your choices, because they're not really yours. You just "figured out the system". It's not system mastery, it's more akin to learning of rote.
This is not what I'm talking about when I discuss "hybrids." What you're describing is a primary combat character who dumps a few spare points in other skills.
While I cannot outrule that you are simply a much, much better player than I am, I would like to see you roll out the hybrid Praetor focusing on speech and fighting and do well. VD even agreed with me in this thread that you can't do the hybrid Praetor; it's meant to be either fight-focused or etiquette-focused.
And let me re-iterate: even if I conceded to your point, it's still not that relevant. "Linear strategies are surperior and more rewarding but hybrids can be pulled off by masters of the system who can game it due to rote learning" is as big of a problem as "Linear strategies are the only viable option", really. Also, inb4 "lol you don't want mastery to be rewarded?"-fallacy.
Anyway, the foundation of this problem isn't really the lack of viability for hybrids but rather again the way AoD promotes learning-by-rote and has little mechanical variety in its core gameplay (CYOA)
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 28,044
An excellent solution. We'll do it, thanks.
The problem isn't "I can't do thievery just because I don't have any thief-skills!"
The problem is "I almost can't do thievery because I haven't maxed out any thief-skills!"
Elhoim
Iron Tower Studio
It's a good point for thieves in particular, even though the argument is presented in an hyperbole (you can definitely do some thievery with less than maxed skills). We'll take a look at the balance of the TG questline and see if we can add some extra thieving options around town.
Excidium
P. banal
No, 'deciding how to approach objectives based on my skills and circumstances'. I want the game to give me a problem and let me go about solving it, instead of simply being fed the problem and a list of solutions to pick the approach I am most proficient with.
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 28,044
That's what all games do, unless you think that those vents in Deus Ex, leading exactly where you need to get to, or heavy boxes you can move, appeared there magically.
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 28,044
Sure. You have to decide which character you want to play, distribute points appropriately, and play. You still get plenty of options, so your path will NOT be a linear one, but if you decide to focus on talking and sneaking, you can forget about fighting your way through options.
Who's talking about maxing out your skills?
Quest 1: You need CHA6 to unlock all options in the dialogue with the guards (although even CHA4 can get through it without issues) and then Persuasion+Streetwise>=5 to bribe the guards, Disguise + Steal>=7 to steal the mandate, Trading 2 and Lore 3 to obtain a document with Antidas' signature and then make a forgery. So, you have a talker, a focused thief, and a jack. Sure, you can't know that you can forge the mandate before but it becomes clear when you play for the first time.
Quest 2: You can attack the shipment (with an extra option of using a bomb (Trap 3 and 4 for different effects) to reduce the fight's difficulty) or redirect the shipment. To redirect, you need Disguise 3 and either a ring (Steal 4) or Streetwise 4 or Persuasion 5, then you can either fight, steal the crates, or use CS and traps, etc. So, again, you have a focused thief option, a talker, and a jack.
Excidium
P. banal
They appeared there through the forgotten magic of level design.
And it's p. different. Deus Ex drops me at some point of a level with multiple ways to approach the objective and then lets me go and actually play the game. If it was designed like AoD, once briefing is done I'd be shown that security camera interface showing all possible routes to choose, with the most succesful one highlighted. After I make my choice (guess which one), another selection of routes forking from that one would show up on the camera feeds, and that would repeat until objective is complete.
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 28,044
Ah, yes, ze magic. A vent for sneakers, a locked door/computer/apparatus for mechanics/hackers/scientists, and plenty of opposition for fighters.
You mean, then lets you go and look for that vent that you know must be around here somewhere?
Is that how it works in AoD? You seem to know so much about it, it's fascinating. Tell me more.
Excidium
P. banal
P. funny to see you apply your exclusivity design to Deus Ex.
Yes, it is somewhat limited by its nature as a sneaky FPS but it actually lets me do things. It's uncanny. Actually makes me feel bad that I need to bring it up in an RPG discussion as a superior approach considering the simplistic nature of it.
Don't know what I could tell that you wouldn't know. Perhaps that the abilities of a character in an RPG are supposed to be tools the player has at his disposal and that ultimately it is the player who should figure out how and when to use them, but that has nothing to do with AoD.
Elhoim
Iron Tower Studio
The funny thing is that Deus Ex is the "prime example" of an RPG well done. What about PST? What can be learned from it?
Last edited:
hiver
Guest
well, thats not entirely true as there is nothing saying it must be so in every game - and rather, RPGs primarily should limit the tools the player has according to the build he created, character class or background.
(which wasnt exactly a big thing in DeusX, where environment and gameplay were heavily skewed toward more direct player influence because of First Person POV - and planned like that from the ground up)
AoD can still achieve very much by adjusting what it has now, playing to its strengths instead of removing it completely or using another type of game systems.
- lately im thinking even allowing to tag two weapon skills in some AoD appropriate way would be a good addition to the combat gameplay of the game.
(grunkers declaratory statements of absolute certainty are p. funny too. one would almost think things actually must be utterly and completely like he makes it, listening to that
)Longshanks
Augur
Deus Ex is a very poor example of an RPG doing choices right, as they only tie weakly into character build. So much so that it's not an RPG at all. In terms of an RPG, AOD's choices are objectively better.
There is though some merit to the argument. Even though AOD is strong on choice and reactivity to character build, it often seems not to be. For a particular playthrough, while there are sometimes other choices, you are usually selecting between 1 or 2 viable options. I think this is a weakness in its design, though it does feed into one of its greatest strengths which is variability in game experience based on character build. I don't think there is a simple way around this. Most possible changes will bring different build experiences closer together and not necessarily improve the game as a whole. It's a balancing act, and which end of the scale you load up really depends on what you value most. AOD falls on one end of this spectrum and Deus Ex on the other; most other RPGs are somewhere in between. Personally, while I do sometimes notice the limitations of the design, I'm very much onside with the AOD way of doing things. This is largely due to being fed a diet of fake choices and homogenous character builds for so many years.
I'm sure Iron Tower will refine their approach in later games and build on their base design (a sneaking system would be a great start), but AOD very much has the base design down and this is a rare thing.
There is though some merit to the argument. Even though AOD is strong on choice and reactivity to character build, it often seems not to be. For a particular playthrough, while there are sometimes other choices, you are usually selecting between 1 or 2 viable options. I think this is a weakness in its design, though it does feed into one of its greatest strengths which is variability in game experience based on character build. I don't think there is a simple way around this. Most possible changes will bring different build experiences closer together and not necessarily improve the game as a whole. It's a balancing act, and which end of the scale you load up really depends on what you value most. AOD falls on one end of this spectrum and Deus Ex on the other; most other RPGs are somewhere in between. Personally, while I do sometimes notice the limitations of the design, I'm very much onside with the AOD way of doing things. This is largely due to being fed a diet of fake choices and homogenous character builds for so many years.
I'm sure Iron Tower will refine their approach in later games and build on their base design (a sneaking system would be a great start), but AOD very much has the base design down and this is a rare thing.
As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.