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[Decado]

The last time I played AoD it was a little demo piece (maybe about 2 years ago? can't remember). Anyways, I was basically just being teleported from one place to another based on dialog decisions, and it was pretty lame. I stopped playing after about 20 minutes. Is it still like that? I wanted it to be so much more.

 

[Gylfi.Fenriz.Conquests]

I wanted it to be so much more.

Then let's remind designers that old games were good because they had a hybrid adventure mindset. It's a terribly hard concept to digest for today's "sealed compartments" thinking.

I mean how can a genre be another genre? Because back then they didn't give a damn about genres, they were happy savages making pagan games.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You could resort to fist, to skills or to little tricks that had neither. And it's those "little tricks" that opened a world of environmental interaction and exploration. Example: two sides, one power generator. You can kill a side, you can use science on generator, or you could see a message pop up in the text window "you see a guy playing with a weird gizmo". So just by speaking to him you'd take it, possibly you'd trade it with another item, and just used it on the generator to shut the thing off without skills or brawn.

How is that not a puzzle from adventures?

From my earlier post:

"I don't like puzzles in RPGs because I don't think they belong there. In adventure games it's perfectly acceptable for a good puzzle to block your progress for a day. In RPGs - not so much. If I have a solve a puzzle before venturing into a dungeon and it takes a day, it will be very frustrating because that's not what RPGs are about. As a result the puzzles that do make their way into RPGs are so easy that they aren't worth implementing. In my humble opinion, of course. "

 

[Decado]

Uhhh . . . Grimrock? The Bard's Tale? Quest for Glory? Of course they belong there -- if they are done well.

 

[Gylfi.Fenriz.Conquests]

You could resort to fist, to skills or to little tricks that had neither. And it's those "little tricks" that opened a world of environmental interaction and exploration. Example: two sides, one power generator. You can kill a side, you can use science on generator, or you could see a message pop up in the text window "you see a guy playing with a weird gizmo". So just by speaking to him you'd take it, possibly you'd trade it with another item, and just used it on the generator to shut the thing off without skills or brawn.

How is that not a puzzle from adventures?

From my earlier post:

"I don't like puzzles in RPGs because I don't think they belong there. In adventure games it's perfectly acceptable for a good puzzle to block your progress for a day. In RPGs - not so much. If I have a solve a puzzle before venturing into a dungeon and it takes a day, it will be very frustrating because that's not what RPGs are about. As a result the puzzles that do make their way into RPGs are so easy that they aren't worth implementing. In my humble opinion, of course. "

Your game is precious to me so i'm criticizing my charity pudding.

having said it, if you don't like puzzles you not only don't like Fallout, you don't like interacting with the environment in a way that gives you that strange feeling of confusion we all felt playing many free roamings like Ultima 6, or the Beholders genre, and system shock.

And you cannot get stuck in a puzzle, VD, that's the whole point! Warren Spector hated adventure games because he couldn't figure out the puzzle and didn't wanna get stuck, so he conceived the choice system. If you can't solve a puzzle you use skills, if you can't do that you use your rocket launcher! That's the whole meaning of having a choice, not just a change in the plot and consequences in the ending scene or in the quest sequence. Spector's point is that if the bartender won't give you the grog, you blast him.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Uhhh . . . Grimrock? The Bard's Tale? Quest for Glory? Of course they belong there -- if they are done well.

Quest for Glory was a hybrid, more of an adventure game with stats and combat than an rpg. I agree about Grimrock though - a first-person dungeon crawler focused on dungeons is probably the only subgenre that can pull it off.

 

[Vault Dweller]

having said it, if you don't like puzzles you not only don't like Fallout...

I humbly disagree.

And you cannot get stuck in a puzzle, VD, that's the whole point! Warren Spector hated adventure games because he couldn't figure out the puzzle and didn't wanna get stuck, so he conceived the choice system. If you can't solve a puzzle you use skills, if you can't do that you use your rocket launcher! That's the whole meaning of having a choice, not just a change in the plot and consequences in the ending scene or in the quest sequence.

It's a silly choice because it allows you to bypass skills. Why have a skill system in the first place? I'd rather see complex puzzles or a complex skill system governing your actions, not both, and especially not puzzles serving as an alternative to skill-based solutions.

 

[Gylfi.Fenriz.Conquests]

having said it, if you don't like puzzles you not only don't like Fallout...

I humbly disagree.

Well ofc. Fallout may be liked multiple ways. Sorry i said that. What i meant was, you MAY not like it in its entirety, in its creole hybridism. But yeah, i strongly believe we need to think that way if we wanna see "rich" complex games.

It's a silly choice because it allows you to bypass skills. Why have a skill system in the first place? I'd rather see complex puzzles or a complex skill system governing your actions, not both, and especially not puzzles serving as an alternative to skill-based solutions.

well i'm sorry you say this, because that's just what i like about these games. But it's weird you call it bypass because it's the other way around, it's bypassing your brain(cause you can't solve a puzzle) using your mathemathically, boringly acquired skill points, which is easier than figuring out puzzles!

It's just 3 degrees of violence corrispondent to brain usage in decrescendo. Puzzle is absolutely saint, no violence. Using skills is a bit of a violence, brawn is blatant violence.

 

[FeelTheRads]

and especially not puzzles serving as an alternative to skill-based solutions.

We'd need Roguey to dig up that quote of yours about how awesome and defining for Fallout it was was you could blow up the radscorpion cave. Now it's just "eh, who cares? it's easy shit, might as well not be there".

Even though it wasn't that "easy" since it actually required exploring and thinking up what to do. I even remember I was arguing with you that I thought it wasn't that great because it was an isolated event and you couldn't typically use explosives this way and you didn't actually need any character skill to see that the entrance was unstable. But nooooooo, that's the AWESOME thing about Fallout, man!

 

[Excidium]

It's a silly choice because it allows you to bypass skills. Why have a skill system in the first place? I'd rather see complex puzzles or a complex skill system governing your actions, not both, and especially not puzzles serving as an alternative to skill-based solutions.

I find this a very flawed mindset for designing CRPGs, and it shows on how brainless AoD is outside of combat.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

It's a silly choice because it allows you to bypass skills. Why have a skill system in the first place? I'd rather see complex puzzles or a complex skill system governing your actions, not both, and especially not puzzles serving as an alternative to skill-based solutions.

I find this a very flawed mindset for designing CRPGs, and it shows on how brainless AoD is outside of combat.

I think he's right though that puzzles/problem solving that bypass skills don't belong in crpg's; the problem with non-combat AoD is that it doesn't have skill-based problem solving either. A lot of the fun Fallout 2 exploits Pope mentioned would have been better (i.e. felt less like exploits) if they'd had more skill-based elements to them (making guards drunk to drop their perception requiring charisma, guards being able to pick the locks on doors you've locked if they have more lockpicking skill than you, etc.).

 

[Vault Dweller]

and especially not puzzles serving as an alternative to skill-based solutions.

We'd need Roguey to dig up that quote of yours about how awesome and defining for Fallout it was was you could blow up the radscorpion cave. Now it's just "eh, who cares? it's easy shit, might as well not be there".

I saw it as a great alternative quest solution (that would have worked well with a PER check and a Traps check) not as an adventure puzzle to be solved.

Even though it wasn't that "easy" since it actually required exploring and thinking up what to do. I even remember I was arguing with you that I thought it wasn't that great because it was an isolated event and you couldn't typically use explosives this way and you didn't actually need any character skill to see that the entrance was unstable.

And we used such things a lot in AoD only with stat- and skill-checks.

 

[Lhynn]

Vince, do you believe alternative solutions to hard skill check could be super easy and obvious skillchecks from another skill? or that just doesnt sound fair to you.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I believe that clever solutions should be easier, but the clever part should be validated by stat checks. In case of the radscorpion cave, it should have been a perception check.

 

[Vault Dweller]

A lot of the fun Fallout 2 exploits Pope mentioned would have been better (i.e. felt less like exploits) if they'd had more skill-based elements to them (making guards drunk to drop their perception requiring charisma, guards being able to pick the locks on doors you've locked if they have more lockpicking skill than you, etc.).

Pretty much.

All these solutions felt like exploits to me - actions that can only be explained by a timestop spell. Cast timestop, run around and lock doors, shove dynamite in the guards' pockets, make them drunk, etc. You can't do them and feel that these actions make sense and are viewed by the npcs as totally normal.

 

[Decado]

Uhhh . . . Grimrock? The Bard's Tale? Quest for Glory? Of course they belong there -- if they are done well.

Quest for Glory was a hybrid, more of an adventure game with stats and combat than an rpg. I agree about Grimrock though - a first-person dungeon crawler focused on dungeons is probably the only subgenre that can pull it off.

You had classes, stat distribution, stats going up with practice, solutions only available to certain classes and/or builds and/or skill sets . . . it is pretty squarely an RPG.

I plugged this post in another thread, and I feel weird doing it again here, but I think it bears repeating. QFQ was a pretty sweet RPG.

 

[Infinitron]

QFQ was a pretty sweet RPG.

http://thegwumps.blogspot.com/2013/09/no-you-cant-shoot-kids-screw-your.html

what is this popamole shit

 

[Decado]

For some reason I don't like dudes who get a boner for shooting 9 year olds in a game.

If it is in there, fine. If it's not, there is nothing more pathetic than a bunch of grown ass men whining about how it ruins their immersion.

 

[Infinitron]

For some reason I don't like dudes who get a boner for shooting 9 year olds in a game.

If it is in there, fine. If it's not, there is nothing more pathetic than a bunch of grown ass men whining about how it ruins their immersion.

Oh, so you're the blogger? Well, you've been around here long enough to know that sentences like these:

Game developers could get away with it back in 1997, but they can't do it now.

are highly unwelcome here.

What else can't we get away with today? Care to give us a list?

 

[Decado]

No, I don't think I will.

ETA: Nice ninja edit -- why did you remove the line about "Your thinking isn't welcome here, fuck off!!"

Anyways there is a whole bunch of shit you can't get away with in games nowadays. As I mentioned in the article, your Roman soldiers can loot and pillage a town, but no game (to my knowledge) lets you engage in the post-battle mass rapes that were so common at the time. And I'm pretty sure no sane developer would ever try to put it in a game.

ETA#2: I don't want to derail this thread. Feel free to start another one and I will participate.

 

[sea]

QFQ was a pretty sweet RPG.

http://thegwumps.blogspot.com/2013/09/no-you-cant-shoot-kids-screw-your.html

what is this popamole shit

 

[Decado]

lmao.

My brother made me a print of that picture for Christmas, it is sitting on my desk. It is the best portrait from IWDII.

 

[J_C]

post-battle mass rapes that were so common at the time. And I'm pretty sure no sane developer would ever try to put it in a game.

And I'm still butthurt about this. I want to kill children, rape man woman, and torture your soul.

But actually you are right about that immersion stuff. Crying all the time about the breaking the immersion is stupid, sane people are not fully immersed in games, except if he is a guy who plays CoD, than goes on a killing spree in the nearest mall. But than he is not sane, so whatever.

 

[V_K]

I want to kill children, rape man woman, and torture your soul.

What about rats?

 

[J_C]

I want to kill children, rape man woman, and torture your soul.

What about rats?

Eat them ofcourse.