All you people that said MotB is good can go fuck yourselves

[Kaiserin]

"You're not powerful enough to beat Kelemvor" really doesn't hold up at all. If you pick the evil ending, the epilogue tells you how you go on to terrorize the Multiverse, devouring many gods.

Not all gods are equal in the source setting.

 

[Selenti]

"You're not powerful enough to beat Kelemvor" really doesn't hold up at all. If you pick the evil ending, the epilogue tells you how you go on to terrorize the Multiverse, devouring many gods.

Not all gods are equal in the source setting.

You're trying to suggest Kelemvor is a Constant?

Don't really buy it, I mean it's mentioned many times he "recently" got the position after the other dude, so really no big deal. The fact that the Wall can be destroyed anyway (per that Obsidian poster) indicates that they don't think Constants are untouchable either.

Just seems like a "man we don't want to write extra dialogue lines for killing this putz".

 

[Smarts]

Don't really buy it, I mean it's mentioned many times he "recently" got the position after the other dude.

Bearing in mind that you're right, Kelemvor is the successor to the god who created the Spirit-Eater in the first place as an extension of his power, it's possible that Kelemvor simply can't be devoured by it.

 

[Lesifoere]

SoZ can't resemble IWD because IWD was linear and SoZ is clearly not going to be. If anything it will resemble BG (except in the full party creation element which is the similarity with IWD).

No thanks. BG was shit; IWD's areas at least have interesting things, and the game doesn't consist of exploring many empty grassy areas, each with only maybe one or two NPCs. If that. And smatterings of boring encounters.

Being able to kill Kelemvor on his own home plane would have been fucking silly. Stop being obtuse. Besides, it doesn't matter that he "recently" got the position; he inherited the portfolio and the worshipers. In terms of power, he's the equal of what Myrkul was.

 

[JrK]

Don't really buy it, I mean it's mentioned many times he "recently" got the position after the other dude.

Not only as the above poster mentions, did Kelemvor inherit many of Myrkul's followers, he also is a much much more popular god due to his philosophy of death which is mild and kind to believers of any type, at least compared to Myrkul and the lot. He even has his clerics go around and tell dying people there is nothing to fear. According to "Faith's & Pantheons", Kelemvor is a GREATER deity, just ~10 years after he attained godhood.

The spirit eater curse might be powerful enough at first to devour the many demigods, and then attacking intermediate and greater gods.

 

[Helton]

God damn no one gives a fuck about your Forggotten Realms porn-lore, faggots. This isn't about your fucking canon this is about a literary non-sequiter. Fucking dense the lot of you. Oh Obsidian you're bound by this stupid shit? Then don't go the entire game building up for a final conflict which, if it happened, would break canon.

This wasn't a surprise sprung on the writers at the last minute, was it? And it's not like the status and power of the gods is a mystery in the setting, is it? So why the fuck were none of my allies, all incredibly powerful, ever aware that the task was futile? And, given that, the character I identified most with continued the fight despite it being "futile". Why couldn't I?

Obsidian is like that bitch who binds your hands and sucks you to within a moment of cumming then says "you know, I want to be a nun" but then you find out a week later she's running a train station up the block and everyone but you is invited, first ride free, subsequents $5 bucks a pop. Fuck that bitch, and fuck all you little hens playing befuddle magic. "Ooooooh the setting forbids this u r teh duim for believing what the plot and characters lead you to believe the entire game"

 

[Smarts]

This wasn't a surprise sprung on the writers at the last minute, was it? And it's not like the status and power of the gods is a mystery in the setting, is it? So why the fuck were none of my allies, all incredibly powerful, ever aware that the task was futile?

They were aware, and it's mentioned at various points in the game.

Remember, the objective of Kaelyn's crusade (and the Betrayer's) was to bring down the wall, not kill Kelemvor. You can ask Kaelyn about this, and she'll admit that if Kelemvor steps in, it's all over, but she hopes that he won't and that he'll show mercy enough to let the Crusade happen. It all hinges on that point. Many NPCs describe the previous Crusade as something that was completely hopeless, as Myrkul - the previous, evil god of Death - sure wasn't going to show any mercy like that.

Your allies had their own reasons for fighting - some believed that even though the Crusade was hopeless, they were morally bound to attempt it. Some, like the giant floating skull dude, had his own agenda that had nothing to do with the wall.

When Kelemvor confronts you, he explains why he can't let this happen, even if he wanted to - and it's hinted that he does.

So no, it shouldn't be a surprise. It's mentioned by quite a few folks that if Kelemvor steps in, it's all over. Really, this is just down to people not paying attention to the game they're supposedly playing.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

And being butthurt over the game not letting them have their way with it.

Not to mention arguing with Kelemvor about why doesn't he break down the Wall if he too thinks it's wrong is much more epic than a boring and predictable "chosan 1 savez da ooniverse from godz" ending.

 

[Gragt]

It is also certain that Kaelyn wouldn't like the player attacking Kelemvor because she stated many times that her goal is the destruction of the Wall only. When confronted by the god, it is clear she has a lot of respect for him, addressing him as her Lord even though she does not worship him anymore, and Kelemvor in return seems to show compassion to her.

 

[Mantiis]

Still missing the point: "Gee I just got my soul back out of the wal kk. Ill leave the wall alone now lol". Even though I am going to end up in there anyway when I die because I do not worship any deity. In short there was no way my character was just going to leave it there but there was no outlet for that.

In any case it sounds like I need to replay to get the evil ending because it seems that you actually can have an ending that allows you to devour gods contradicting all the DnD rule whores who have posted. "OMG you can'ts do thats on their homesplanes you butthurts nublets! ITS WILLS BREAKS MY DNDS!!!" Like it's some kind of fucking religion.

 

[Gragt]

Like it's some kind of fucking religion.

Sometimes it scares me.

 

[Smarts]

Still missing the point: "Gee I just got my soul back out of the wal kk. Ill leave the wall alone now lol". Even though I am going to end up in there anyway when I die because I do not worship any deity.

Better get worshipping, then.

We're not missing the point. The Crusade failed. Kaelyn can spend the rest of her life trying to bring it down after that and never succeeds. There's nothing left to try - so you'd better pick a patron, get on your knees and start praying.

 

[Helton]

some believed that even though the Crusade was hopeless, they were morally bound to attempt it.

Unlike, of course, my character, which was predefined down to the letter by the creators? My mistake, I thought this was a role-playing game.

It is also certain that Kaelyn wouldn't like the player attacking Kelemvor because she stated many times that her goal is the destruction of the Wall only.

If you fuck wits would stop straw-manning arguments you'd see no one wants to kill Kelemvor or "chosan 1 savez da ooniverse from godz", we want the opportunity to do what we were lead to believe we would be able to do the entire game. Attempt to tear down the wall. My character felt morally obligated to do so. He would have continued trying. He'd have fought the rest of his days right next to Kaelyn not run back to Neverwinter to reunite with Gay-Gone or whatever the old faggots name was.

"Lol Planetscope only had one endings!" and related arguments are also strawmen. This isn't about a gaming convention it's about a literary anal crank.

 

[Helton]

Kaelyn can spend the rest of her life trying to bring it down after that and never succeeds.

There's nothing left to try

watch me do stupid!

 

[Smarts]

we want the opportunity to do what we were lead to believe we would be able to do the entire game. Attempt to tear down the wall.

Er, you did get to attempt it. Remember that whole Act 3 thing?

He would have continued trying. He'd have fought the rest of his days right next to Kaelyn not run back to Neverwinter to reunite with Gay-Gone or whatever the old faggots name was.

And the Spirit-Eater curse? Would your character have let that remain? Kelemvor gives you an either/or, really - he'll step aside and let you have your soul back and give you a chance to end the curse and send you back to your home plane, but only if you leave the Wall alone.

So you're given two deeds to do, mutually exclusive, both good - but one is achievable, the other is not. Oh, and one prevents you from turning into a mindless embodiment of hunger.

And yes, I know what I posted. And I stand by it. Kaelyn keeps trying, but she's got no tricks up her sleeve, no aces, no new approaches, because there isn't anything. All she can do is harry the wall. And only keeps at it because she's a crazy Joan of Arc analogue.

 

[Mic Turner]

Kaelyn keeps trying, but she's got no tricks up her sleeve, no aces, no new approaches, because there isn't anything. All she can do is harry the wall. And only keeps at it because she's a crazy Joan of Arc analogue.

Well, first of all, if she is "allowed" by the writers to keep fighting the good fight, why can't the player? To my paladin the Wall was the utmost abomination, punishing guilty and innocents alike with a fate literally worse than death. In a PnP game this would spell a serious crisis of conscience for every paladin or good priest. A possible ending where the player bides farewell to the Realms and joins Kaelyn's band of raiders (maybe finally ending on the wall and being saved in a Big Damn Heroes moment, because once in a while heroic tropes can be good) would have given the entire matter a much better sense of closure.
Besides, you forget that Kaelyn DOES have an ace up her sleeve: this crusade is being fought on the planes, and on the planes everything is about belief. If a crusade can get enough initial results, even if we're talking about tearing down the wall a brick at a time, a soul at a time, there is no greater belief attractor than her cause to save innocent souls.
Ironically, that road could lead her straight to divinity.

 

[Smarts]

Well, first of all, if she is "allowed" by the writers to keep fighting the good fight, why can't the player?

Well, the game is about the spirit-eater, not the Crusade and the Wall.

Besides, you forget that Kaelyn DOES have an ace up her sleeve: this crusade is being fought on the planes, and on the planes everything is about belief.

The planes in Forgotten Realms are not the same planes as in Planescape, and they don't follow the same rules. For example, there's no Wall of the Faithless in Planescape. Nor is there a Fugue Plane.

 

[Mic Turner]

Well, the game is about the spirit-eater, not the Crusade and the Wall.

Considering what the Spirit-eater is I don't know if we can make that distinction.

The planes in Forgotten Realms are not the same planes as in Planescape, and they don't follow the same rules. For example, there's no Wall of the Faithless in Planescape. Nor is there a Fugue Plane.

Well, I stand corrected.
I thought the wall was a new addition since they sadly discontinued the Planescape setting, but I see they completely butchered the whole "multiple settings as part of the same Prime Material plane" idea.
Still, the fate of Myrkul and the very existence of the Wall mean that, even in this cosmology, belief is the fuel of the gods, and a crusade to save countless innocent souls is still a cause likely to attract belief like an ACME magnet.

 

[Selenti]

Still missing the point: "Gee I just got my soul back out of the wal kk. Ill leave the wall alone now lol". Even though I am going to end up in there anyway when I die because I do not worship any deity. In short there was no way my character was just going to leave it there but there was no outlet for that.

In any case it sounds like I need to replay to get the evil ending because it seems that you actually can have an ending that allows you to devour gods contradicting all the DnD rule whores who have posted. "OMG you can'ts do thats on their homesplanes you butthurts nublets! ITS WILLS BREAKS MY DNDS!!!" Like it's some kind of fucking religion.

The evil ending is badass, basically since you are Hunger you cannot be destroyed, though you can destroy.

Hence why it makes the whole Kelemvor thing seem even more far-fetched.

 

[Smarts]

Considering what the Spirit-eater is I don't know if we can make that distinction.

Sure we can. I'm going to do it right here.

MotB is a story told in two parts. The first part is the PC's story - how they became trapped in a barrow, how they became afflicted with the Spirit-Eater curse, and how they deal with it. Safiya serves as the 'narrator' for this part of the story, helping the PC to make sense of what is happening.

The second part is Akachi's story, and how he launched a Crusade and was cursed in the first place by Myrkul. But Akachi's story isn't about an idealist's crusade, it's about an attempt to rescue a single soul - it's a love story, a tragedy. The Wall is incidental. What's important is that he fought for the woman he loved, and was cursed because of it. Kaelyn is the narrator for this part of the story, but her reasons for bringing down the Wall are quite different.

Of course, these two parts of the story come together, and for the PC to save him/herself (assuming the Good path, here), the PC has to put Akachi to rest by following in his footsteps and assuming the 'role' of Akachi. He fought to take a single soul from the Wall - and that's exactly what the PC is there to do, too. As in the past, the Crusade and the Wall are incidental to events in the present. That soul could have been anywhere (a deep dungeon, a wizard's tower, the plane of Fire) and the basic shape of the story would be unchanged.

So that's what I mean when I suggest that MotB was not about the Wall and the Crusade. It features them, yes - but they are the backdrop for what is a very personal story of love, loss and a grim curse.

 

[Gragt]

And it seems Kelemvor is the one narrating the whole story, he follows the PC from the moment he awoke in the barrow.

 

[Selenti]

Considering what the Spirit-eater is I don't know if we can make that distinction.

Sure we can. I'm going to do it right here.

MotB is a story told in two parts. The first part is the PC's story - how they became trapped in a barrow, how they became afflicted with the Spirit-Eater curse, and how they deal with it. Safiya serves as the 'narrator' for this part of the story, helping the PC to make sense of what is happening.

The second part is Akachi's story, and how he launched a Crusade and was cursed in the first place by Myrkul. But Akachi's story isn't about an idealist's crusade, it's about an attempt to rescue a single soul - it's a love story, a tragedy. The Wall is incidental. What's important is that he fought for the woman he loved, and was cursed because of it. Kaelyn is the narrator for this part of the story, but her reasons for bringing down the Wall are quite different.

Of course, these two parts of the story come together, and for the PC to save him/herself (assuming the Good path, here), the PC has to put Akachi to rest by following in his footsteps and assuming the 'role' of Akachi. He fought to take a single soul from the Wall - and that's exactly what the PC is there to do, too. As in the past, the Crusade and the Wall are incidental to events in the present. That soul could have been anywhere (a deep dungeon, a wizard's tower, the plane of Fire) and the basic shape of the story would be unchanged.

So that's what I mean when I suggest that MotB was not about the Wall and the Crusade. It features them, yes - but they are the backdrop for what is a very personal story of love, loss and a grim curse.

Except that that's all _purely optional_. Saying it's about the Spirit-eater is very accurate, but it's not all about Akachi or tragedy or any of that.

You just think it's about that, because that's what you obsessed over, a lot of that doesn't even figure into it if you take the other path.

 

[Mic Turner]

He fought to take a single soul from the Wall - and that's exactly what the PC is there to do, too. As in the past, the Crusade and the Wall are incidental to events in the present. That soul could have been anywhere (a deep dungeon, a wizard's tower, the plane of Fire) and the basic shape of the story would be unchanged.

On this I don't agree; had the soul been anywhere else, the story would have been much weaker. The writers depicted the Wall in a way that may result positively loathsome to some players (and that's GREAT storytelling), and every time you speak with Kaelyn you have x^n opportunities to basically say how much you'd like to join the crusade, so saving his own soul, as Akachi tried to save that of his beloved, is not everything a PC might be there to do, not counting the whole devourer stuff. Hell, first time I played it, with a paladin, the curse was just something I had to keep in check (and that allowed me to do some serious good granting peace to the undead, just to spite Myrkul some more) while preparing to try and rid the planes of their single greatest injustice.

To avoid any potential confusion (after all I did jump in the middle of the thread) let me say that I have absolutely no problem about what happened inside the City of Judgement: the moment Big K steps in, the battle is clearly over. That doesn't mean that the war is too, though.

To sum it up, MotB is indeed a personal, tragic story, but when you throw in something spectacularly loathsome, and have the PC recognize how abominable that thing is (and the whole story greatly benefits from this), assuming that he just forgets about it after having overcome his personal ordeal is like completely messing up the icing on a cake: it's still good, but damn.

 

[Mantiis]

Hell, first time I played it, with a paladin, the curse was just something I had to keep in check (and that allowed me to do some serious good granting peace to the undead, just to spite Myrkul some more) while preparing to try and rid the planes of their single greatest injustice.

This.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I just finished the game, and the ending was pretty satisfactory, but that was pretty much because I didn't approach the wall with a desire to tear it down. I just wanted to get my soul, lose the curse and gtfo, not dwell in the business of gods.

why the fuck were none of my allies, all incredibly powerful, ever aware that the task was futile?

Oh, hey, gee, maybe because they don't have a D&D rulebook in their backpacks?

you actually can have an ending that allows you to devour gods contradicting all the DnD rule whores who have posted. "OMG you can'ts do thats on their homesplanes you butthurts nublets! ITS WILLS BREAKS MY DNDS!!!" Like it's some kind of fucking religion.

But you see, nothing is said about who, what and when.

Also, if SoZ is supposed to be in some way like IWD, it needs a DRASTICALLY better combat system, because that's what IWD was all about - really amusing party-based combat, while unfortunately, NWN2 doesn't quite deliver that.