All you people that said MotB is good can go fuck yourselves

[Anthony Davis]

Firstly thanks.

Secondly the reason it was so important to my character was that he didn't believe in any of the gods so he was going to end up in the wall at some point so when he starting to talk about it with Kaelyn he realised that there maybe some hope of altering his/my fate. Then when I found out that the betrayer had had generals and an army I thought holy crap i might just be able to pull this off!

So I thought to myself how could I increase my chances? Ok Rammaq needs power if he can become a demigod/god that might help even the odds so I made sure he got what he wanted (yes he might betray me but that's a risk I'm willing to take). So when I get to the climax i find out a) he isn't even there and b) he betrays Kaelyn instead of me. I pull my soul out of the wall knowing full well it's just going to end up there as soon as I die and I'm ok with that for some reason.

Anyhow the game is good and there are choices and consequences aplenty it's just that the end wasn't particularly satisfying for my particular character.

There are several threads going at the same time and I am also busy at work so forgive me if this was already stated.

It is not possible to defeat Kelemvor but it *IS* possible to destroy the Wall, albeit through Kaelyn. It is the hardest ending to get, but it ispossible for Kaelyn to succeed in her mission if you do the Right(tm) things in the game.

 

[Erebus]

It is not possible to defeat Kelemvor but it *IS* possible to destroy the Wall, albeit through Kaelyn. It is the hardest ending to get, but it ispossible for Kaelyn to succeed in her mission if you do the Right(tm) things in the game.

Well, if you kick Rammaq's metaphorical ass, Kaelyn will spend the rest of her life organizing swift attacks against the Wall, freeing a few souls each time. But that's not really destroying it. Is there something else ?

Anyway... Kaelyn gets the heroic epilogue and we... are allowed to become Knight-Captain of Neverwinter again. Whose idea was that ? I need a name to make a proper voodoo doll.

 

[Anthony Davis]

It is not possible to defeat Kelemvor but it *IS* possible to destroy the Wall, albeit through Kaelyn. It is the hardest ending to get, but it ispossible for Kaelyn to succeed in her mission if you do the Right(tm) things in the game.

Well, if you kick Rammaq's metaphorical ass, Kaelyn will spend the rest of her life organizing swift attacks against the Wall, freeing a few souls each time. But that's not really destroying it. Is there something else ?

Anyway... Kaelyn gets the heroic epilogue and we... are allowed to become Knight-Captain of Neverwinter again. Whose idea was that ? I need a name to make a proper voodoo doll.

Okay, so I just go it from Jess Husges about the deal.

They thought about adding the suicide via Kelemvor option, but several thigns killed it. Development time AND making sure that EVERYONE who took that option would understand that it was a no win situation. In the end, just didn't work out.

As for Kaelyn and her BEST ending, she does not completely destroy the wall, but the crusade is on going AND the implication is that Kelemvor is LETTING her take souls away each time. Kelemvor could easily stop her, but he chooses not to.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I actually liked the "you can't destroy the wall" twist. I dislike heroic fantasy and especially that "you know you will win because you are the main character and winning against all odds is what you do!" feeling in RPGs. What's wrong with taking on an impossible task and failing? Who the fuck are you to tear down the wall? No, seriously? Yesterday you were a farm kid in Buttfuck, Nowhere and today you are tearing down gods' favourite walls?

What's wrong with games that are about trying? Or must you win all the time?

 

[Mantiis]

I actually liked the "you can't destroy the wall" twist. I dislike heroic fantasy and especially that "you know you will win because you are the main character and winning against all odds is what you do!" feeling in RPGs. What's wrong with taking on an impossible task and failing? Who the fuck are you to tear down the wall? No, seriously? Yesterday you were a farm kid in Buttfuck, Nowhere and today you are tearing down gods' favourite walls?

What's wrong with games that are about trying? Or must you win all the time?

I am pretty sure this is directed at me so i'll bite.

Firstly by the sounds of it you didn't read the last post i made so I'll quote it for you:

Secondly the reason it was so important to my character was that he didn't believe in any of the gods so he was going to end up in the wall at some point so when he starting to talk about it with Kaelyn he realised that there maybe some hope of altering his/my fate. Then when I found out that the betrayer had had generals and an army I thought holy crap i might just be able to pull this off!

So I thought to myself how could I increase my chances? Ok Rammaq needs power if he can become a demigod/god that might help even the odds so I made sure he got what he wanted (yes he might betray me but that's a risk I'm willing to take). So when I get to the climax i find out a) he isn't even there and b) he betrays Kaelyn instead of me. I pull my soul out of the wall knowing full well it's just going to end up there as soon as I die and I'm ok with that for some reason.

Anyhow the game is good and there are choices and consequences aplenty it's just that the end wasn't particularly satisfying for my particular character.

Secondly I devoured a weakened god in Act 2 - and yes I was still a farm boy before and after I devoured him. I was also a farm boy when Okku was devoured and I was a farmboy when I helped Rammaq attain godhood. The argument that you are a farmboy is a non sequitur with respect to what you do towards the latter part of the game when you are consorting with celestials, dragons and demigods/gods and how a soul devouring 'thing' within you which can devour gods (albeit weakend).

Having said that the quoted text is my main point and I again thank the Obsidian devs for posting.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I am pretty sure this is directed at me so i'll bite.

Not really. It's more of a topic for an interesting design discussion.

Secondly the reason it was so important to my character was that he didn't believe in any of the gods so he was going to end up in the wall at some point so when he starting to talk about it with Kaelyn he realised that there maybe some hope of altering his/my fate. Then when I found out that the betrayer had had generals and an army I thought holy crap i might just be able to pull this off!

Didn't he have generals and an army the first time? Anyway, sure you thought that you might be able to pull it off. That's the whole point. To pull of the "trying" aspect, you must believe that you have a chance even though in reality you might not.

So I thought to myself how could I increase my chances? Ok Rammaq needs power if he can become a demigod/god that might help even the odds so I made sure he got what he wanted (yes he might betray me but that's a risk I'm willing to take). So when I get to the climax i find out a) he isn't even there and b) he betrays Kaelyn instead of me.

That's his choice and that makes him a great "party member". He doesn't care about what you want and what your plans for the evening are. He got his own plans but he appreciates your help.

Secondly I devoured a weakened god in Act 2...

You or the hunger (which wasn't you) inside you? Can that hunger devour the wall? I don't think so.

 

[Warden]

Oh, ok cool. No sweat, it is not my thing personally, but it is flattering.

Wait, about the "he's male" part.. I actually haven't seen your pic... soo. :shock:

 

[Mantiis]

Secondly I devoured a weakened god in Act 2...

You or the hunger (which wasn't you) inside you? Can that hunger devour the wall? I don't think so.

I meant devour Kelemvor after weakening him in battle, but on the wall maybe I could have used Eternal Rest to release the souls trapped within? And with no souls the wall may possibly collapse... In any case the point is moot.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I request that the name of West Harbor will be changed to Buttfuck in the next update.

 

[Smarts]

Secondly I devoured a weakened god in Act 2 - and yes I was still a farm boy before and after I devoured him.

Dead god, mate, not weakened. Dead, and floating on the Astral. I got the impression that there's a huge, giant, massive gulf between an obsolete dead Forgotten-realms god with only a handful of worshippers that probably don't even number in triple digits, and a premier-league Forgotten-realms god in his prime.

Essentially, you could devour the dead god because he was already dead. You would have had to kill Kelemvor before you could devour him, and you couldn't do that, because he has worshippers in the millions and you're on his turf.

If you didn't get that from the game, shame! Play it again, take different conversation options or something. Then come back and tell us how it went.

 

[Radisshu]

I just wanna say my favorite piece of voice acting from NWN2:OC was the guy in West Harbor who sounded like Slingblade talking about the blight.

That dude cracked me up EVERYTIME, and No, I am not lying. Serious lulz.

As far as actual voice actors go, I thought Sand and Grobnar were pretty sweet.

Huh, I forgot about Sand, actually. He really nailed the character.

 

[Texas Red]

Annie, what actress played Kaelyn?

 

[Konjad]

Annie, what actress played Kaelyn?

She's voiced by Cat O'Connor.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Anthony/Annie, what direction do you think SoZ is taking? Do you think it is continuing the roleplaying of MotB? Or do you think it is going back to the IWD hack/slash days?

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Anthony/Annie, what direction do you think SoZ is taking? Do you think it is continuing the roleplaying of MotB? Or do you think it is going back to the IWD hack/slash days?

Have you read the previews? It seems more hack-and-slash than MotB, but with more roleplaying than IWD.

 

[Annie Mitsoda]

Well - kinda tough to say. I can tell you that the story's not built on following a linear, carefully-crafted path the way MotB was, but that doesn't mean we threw a bunch of shit in a box, shook it up and went "HEAR IZ GAEM!" Fuck no, son. Get that idea outta yer skull.

The tricky thing about SoZ was keeping the IWD feel (with the party and the whatnot) and the "light adventure" while not skimping on the story. Not LESS, just DIFFERENT. A whole lot less linear, a lot more open to character choices and reactions, and approaching stuff when you want to. MotB had the curse poking you in the ribs, driving you onward: the challenge for me with SoZ was balancing making you feel compelled to continue and involved without grabbing you by the hand and petulantly pulling you towards the next plot point.

Navelgazing point: how do you strike a balance between offering a lot more choice to the player and making sure those choices are still worthwhile? If you can just select what color your banner is but everything else is railroaded, what the crap does it matter? So a lot of design wasn't just MOAR CHOICES! it was how we added more but still made them matter.

So the short answer (for those going "tl;dr") is - more towards IWD, but definitely not losing that same sense of importance in story that MotB has... just not going for it AS hardcore.

 

[Disconnected]

Navelgazing point: how do you strike a balance between offering a lot more choice to the player and making sure those choices are still worthwhile?

Personally, I'd say go for less story & choice, and prioritise significant, lasting consequences instead. And make sure the rest of the game is replay-worthy.

But then, you probably don't want to listen to me. I've never designed a game in my life, and assuming you stay with Atari and Atari stays shit, I'll not even be a customer.

 

[Erebus]

It seems more hack-and-slash than MotB, but with more roleplaying than IWD.

My butter knife has more roleplaying than IWD. The fact that SoZ is meant to be like that terrible game is worrying to me. IWD came right after the very good, original and story-rich PS:T and it sucked donkey balls. Now SoZ is coming right after the very good, original and story-rich MotB and... well, let's just hope for the best.


...But since an evil reptilian race is involved, it's a safe bet to assume that the story, at least, will suck donkey balls.

 

[Mantiis]

Annie, what actress played Kaelyn?

She's voiced by Cat O'Connor.

Orgasmic voice indeed.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

It seems more hack-and-slash than MotB, but with more roleplaying than IWD.

My butter knife has more roleplaying than IWD. The fact that SoZ is meant to be like that terrible game is worrying to me. IWD came right after the very good, original and story-rich PS:T and it sucked donkey balls. Now SoZ is coming right after the very good, original and story-rich MotB and... well, let's just hope for the best.


...But since an evil reptilian race is involved, it's a safe bet to assume that the story, at least, will suck donkey balls.

Exactly.

Infinity Engine games sucked in general, but PST was actually good. IWD was the opposite. Where PST had heavy emphasis on story and roleplaying, IWD had heavy emphasis on party-based combat against lots of enemies. If SoZ is gonna be anything like that, I'm not interested.

First Obsidian game I won't have pre-ordered.

 

[Wyrmlord]

What the hell is wrong with you, Matt? Icewind Dale is awesome.

I have fond memories of my party of six dwarven fighters creating a bloody mess all the way through the Spine Of The World, all of them screaming, "IS THAT THE BEST YOU CAN DO?!" OR "I'LL WASH ME BEARD IN YOUR BLOOD!"

 

[Gragt]

I still liked the small details in IWD, for exemple the way the different characters would react to you depending on the class of the character talking to them, IWD2 even took things a bit further with the different skills and spells. For exemple at the start of the game in Targos you can heal the injured soldier in different ways if you choose to do so or later in the game you can teach that girl to be a sorceress if you talk to her with a sorcerer. It's not a deep roleplaying experience but small details like that kept the game interesting in between two sessions of dungeon crawling.

The guys and gals at Obsidian do not show that they want to repeat MotB and try something else, a bit more old-school. There is potential for failure and mediocrity but they might just do it right. And if it sucks I'll send Yuri to their headquarters to deliver then the message that the game sucked badly.

 

[Lesifoere]

I enjoyed IWD, but the prospect of SoZ resembling it more than MotB isn't very encouraging to me either. Could be worse, I suppose. They could've aimed for the IWD2 feel.

 

[Selenti]

"You're not powerful enough to beat Kelemvor" really doesn't hold up at all. If you pick the evil ending, the epilogue tells you how you go on to terrorize the Multiverse, devouring many gods.

 

[Gragt]

Maybe at that point you do not care at all about Kelemvor. Also what good would it do to destroy him, destroy the Wall, doom the Multiverse and you with it? Or whatever, I get a headache out of it.

 

[Warden]

SoZ can't resemble IWD because IWD was linear and SoZ is clearly not going to be. If anything it will resemble BG (except in the full party creation element which is the similarity with IWD).