Alpha Protocol: NOT AN RPG

[Lurkar]

GUYS I MENTIONED SOMETHING TIED TO OBSIDIAN.

HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

 

[Joe Krow]

Fuck! Idiots have taken over the Codex!!

Dice rolls reference a probability which is based on a character attribute. Randomness has nothing to do with it. In an rpg, no matter how action heavy, clicking your mousey thing causes the character to take a particular action and the success or failure of that action is based on the character's attributes.

That won't be happening in Alpha Protocol. The character your playing will never determine anything. At best "stats" will effect how difficult the shooter mechanics or mini-games are for the player. Success or failure will always rest with the player. Maybe if they called the "stats" action bonuses (which is what they are) you'd be able to make the distinction. Probably not though.

 

[Shannow]

We were told that there are no dice rolls that work in the background to determine the player's skill, only their ability and whatever bonuses that the skill system has unlocked for them. For example, as Mike draws a bead on an enemy, the reticle starts to shrink, indicating that his aim won't swing as wide. With improvements, it might not take him as long to focus on his mark the next time.

Battling through the train yard revealed opportunities for Mike's covert abilities. At one point, he found a computer terminal that he could hack into, revealing a timed panel of shifting numbers and letters; the player has to match two sequences of digits within that mess. Another electronic puzzle displays several panels of circuits, each with a numbered node linked via twisting paths to a tab at the bottom. This puzzle is also timed, meaning that the player had to choose the correct tab linked to the right path in order to quickly solve each part. With improved skills, the number of nodes would decrease.

Even without significant training, the player can still try solving the puzzles. It was emphasized that none of the puzzles will simply be "unavailable" to the player because of how he had developed his skills, but they would be a lot more difficult to overcome, depending on whether or not they had invested anything into them. For example, the circuit puzzle might have 10 nodes to sort through, as opposed to just three.

This exactly the way I'd design an action RPG/shooter-hybrid. Let's compare it to FO3:
In FO3 the skills for lockpicking and hacking are completely useless for gameplay. The sweet spots of 25, 50, 75 (and 100? don't remember) are important because they rule the possibility of even attempting(!) to hack/lockpick. But the mini-game itself doesn't get easier because of high skill-points. Quite the opposite because the higher level lock are more difficult to pick. In FO you could attempt every lock, even if you didn't really have a chance of opening it. In AP the attribute skill directly affects gameplay (make mini-games easier), the way it should in an RPG (not that I think RPGs should have mini-games in the first place). The weapon skill in FO3 affects to hit chance in VATS, but far too little IMO and weapon dmg. While in FO the skills affected only to hit chance. So the logical port would have been the way AP is doing it, not the way Beth did it. It is also more realistical (for what that is worth).
Personally I'd give the weapons dmg ranges (and thus dice rolls) but otherwise I see nothing wrong with an action-RPG where skills directly affect gameplay and player-skill-"improvements" substitute dice-rolls. Obsidian is doing a much better job on everything Beth fucked up. Too bad I'm still not interested in AP.

 

[denizsi]

AoD won't have dice rolls outside of combat - does it make the game "less of an RPG"? And in Jagged Alliance the game rules include very little of randomness - OMG, stats don't matter!

It's perfectly fine for an RPG, especially for the computer one (that allow you to load the game), to get rid of dice rolls in favour to the other some system and you don't have to use such retarded arguments to prove AP won't be an RPG but action RPG/shooter with RPG elements/shooter with stats/generic piece of shit. In fact, the only argument that one need is that the actions depends on player's manual skills (maybe not for the last one ) what is known since the first info about the game. Hmm... Oh, fuck, it really does, quickly I should start a new topic to share the revelation!



Next topic on RPG Codex: Fallout is not an RPG!
It doesn't require player to roll a dice but allow computer to use a random system to decide the result of the action!

S.T.A.L.K.E.R is an RPG.

 

[denizsi]

Yes, RPGs are all about who has more Hit Points and how many hits it takes to kill something. You see, player character A kills the foozle in 3 hits, while player character B kills the foozle in 10 hits. In the end, the only way stats matter is how long it takes betweeen player A at level 100 and player B at level 1 to kill the foozle. Just how long it takes to kill the foozle to get the ding. Epitome of role playing. This is the key to understanding RPGs: There are no stats, there's only grind.

 

[Dionysus]

This exactly the way I'd design an action RPG/shooter-hybrid. Let's compare it to FO3:
In FO3 the skills for lockpicking and hacking are completely useless for gameplay. The sweet spots of 25, 50, 75 (and 100? don't remember) are important because they rule the possibility of even attempting(!) to hack/lockpick. But the mini-game itself doesn't get easier because of high skill-points. Quite the opposite because the higher level lock are more difficult to pick. In FO you could attempt every lock, even if you didn't really have a chance of opening it. In AP the attribute skill directly affects gameplay (make mini-games easier), the way it should in an RPG (not that I think RPGs should have mini-games in the first place).

I'm not saying that this was executed perfectly in FO3, but AP might be going the way of Oblivion, which is worse. As a general rule, it's good if the stats are important in an RPG. If a novice character can overcome expert-level challenges with regularity, then the skill becomes unimportant. FO3 might have avoided this problem in a hamfisted way, but at least it managed to avoid the problem.

The weapon skill in FO3 affects to hit chance in VATS, but far too little IMO and weapon dmg. While in FO the skills affected only to hit chance. So the logical port would have been the way AP is doing it, not the way Beth did it. It is also more realistical (for what that is worth).

I don't know what you are talking about here. In FO3, skill affected accuracy and damage. In AP, skill will affect accuracy and damage, and give the character super powers. The effect on accuracy appears to be minimal in both games (except in FO3's VATS). I don't see how AP is more in the spirit of FO, nor do I see how it is "more realistical."

 

[MetalCraze]

S.T.A.L.K.E.R is an RPG.

Funny thing - some ESF retards at the Codex really believe that.
They believe that RPG means twitchy third person shooter with minigames which for some reason mean skills and mistake stats for unlockable bonuses a la God of War and Demon Stone that do nothing but add new kewl tricks with a gun and easier minigames. ITZ coming to the Codex. By the middle of 2010 we will be overrun by ESF morons.

 

[T.Val]

I don't particularly have a problem with diceless systems (plenty of examples in P&P, well some) or RPGs relying on player skill, the mantra of the old school D&D movement is "Challenge the player, not the character." I do have a problem however with ill conceived boring fucking piece of shit mini-games. In the end all mini-games do is make people feel like they're a Popcap game but less fun.

 

[Joe Krow]

http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/fea ... page=0%2C3

I don't recommend game mag articles very often but this one is definitely worth a read. It's full of quotes from Bethesda, Black Isle, and Troika. It explains pretty well why rpgs are going to shit. Here's a quote you might find interesting:

“PnP games are about being limited by what your character can do,” explains Hines. “You make choices, but what usually ends up determining your success or failure is your character and a roll of the dice. That’s a tougher thing to balance in a videogame as we try to walk the line between having the player meaningfully interact with the world around you, and having the skills and abilities of your character determine your success or failure. We’ve already talked about this a bit with Fallout 3, where we want the condition of the weapon you are using, and your character’s skill with using that weapon, to determine whether or not you can kill that creature over there – not your ability to put crosshairs on a target and pull the trigger.

Again, that was Pete Hines explaining things to you. Pete Hines.

 

[Jim Cojones]

S.T.A.L.K.E.R is an RPG.

Funny thing - some ESF retards at the Codex really believe that.
They believe that RPG means twitchy third person shooter with minigames which for some reason mean skills and mistake stats for unlockable bonuses a la God of War and Demon Stone that do nothing but add new kewl tricks with a gun and easier minigames. ITZ coming to the Codex. By the middle of 2010 we will be overrun by ESF morons.

Roofles!

 

[Jim Cojones]

Again, that was Pete Hines explaining things to you. Pete Hines.

Excuse me? It is you who has just yesterday found out the great revelation that AP is not an RPG (no way for real? It was known from the beginning that it is action RPG/shooter with RPG elements), using as the main argument not the fact that it relies on player's skill (which is the reason why it isn't an cRPG) but because it doesn't have dice rolls (which is perfectly fine for the cRPG - f.e. systems that uses stat checks with fixed values and semi-random sytsems - JA again). I believe you could learn a lot from Pete Hines.

BTW Bloodlines also didn't have dice rolls.

 

[bat_boro]

Recently I watched the Bourne movies again - I had forgotten how awesome they are, really.

Now if AP could, somehow, bring that awesomeness on my monitor, I will be satisfied customer. Yeah, it doesn't look like a good RPG, but what does nowadays?

 

[Black_Willow]

BTW Bloodlines also didn't have dice rolls.

But it fits - Bloodlines were an action game with RPG elements.

 

[Joe Krow]

...In an rpg, no matter how action heavy, clicking your mousey thing causes the character to take a particular action and the success or failure of that action is based on the character's attributes. That won't be happening in Alpha Protocol. The character your playing will never determine anything. At best "stats" will effect how difficult the shooter mechanics or mini-games are for the player...

Excuse me? It is you who has just yesterday found out the great revelation that AP is not an RPG (no way for real? It was known from the beginning that it is action RPG/shooter with RPG elements), using as the main argument not the fact that it relies on player's skill (which is the reason why it isn't an cRPG) but because it doesn't have dice rolls (which is perfectly fine for the cRPG - f.e. systems that uses stat checks with fixed values and semi-random sytsems - JA again). I believe you could learn a lot from Pete Hines.

BTW Bloodlines also didn't have dice rolls.

Say no more. Please. "Dice rolls" in themselves are not the issue. You're not going to get it. Don't try.

 

[Shannow]

I'm not saying that this was executed perfectly in FO3, but AP might be going the way of Oblivion, which is worse. As a general rule, it's good if the stats are important in an RPG. If a novice character can overcome expert-level challenges with regularity, then the skill becomes unimportant. FO3 might have avoided this problem in a hamfisted way, but at least it managed to avoid the problem.

The only way it could be handled any worse were if the game were so easy that any "novice" could beat any challenge. Obsidian yet have to prove that they can do worse than Beth. Only really bad balancing and a non-existent challenge level could accomplish that.

In FO3, skill affected accuracy and damage.

Which I pointed out

In AP, skill will affect accuracy and damage, and give the character super powers.

Maybe, but this:

We were told that there are no dice rolls that work in the background to determine the player's skill, only their ability and whatever bonuses that the skill system has unlocked for them. For example, as Mike draws a bead on an enemy, the reticle starts to shrink, indicating that his aim won't swing as wide. With improvements, it might not take him as long to focus on his mark the next time.

makes no mention of damage or super powers. In fact I even quoted that in my first comment. To make it clear to even the most retarded of people what my point of reference was...

The effect on accuracy appears to be minimal in both games (except in FO3's VATS).

I see, so you've already played AP

I don't see how AP is more in the spirit of FO, nor do I see how it is "more realistical."

Pray tell, where did I claim it was more in the spirit of FO? As to more realistical: judging from the rest of your post you'll probably not get it but I'll tell you anyway: If your skill with a weapon increases you'll be more accurate, draw a bead faster, reload faster and un-jam the gun faster. You will not do more dmg. In FO3 nothing but dmg is affected outside of VATS. In the quoted passage for AP at least he drew a bead faster and possibly became more accurate. Not perfect but certainly better from both, weapon-skill affecting action-gameplay, and realism.

Please tell me you were trolling. Either you respond to what I said and commented on or you point out that there is more information that I've been ignoring. But that drivel you delivered there is just stupid beyond belief.

 

[Jim Cojones]

BTW Bloodlines also didn't have dice rolls.

But it fits - Bloodlines were an action game with RPG elements.

In opposition to AP?

Say no more. Please. "Dice rolls" in themselves are not the issue. You're not going to get it. Don't try.

No, they are not. But using them as an arguments is a reason enough to to have fun of you. The fact that you find something that was known from the first news about AP an revelation is even more hilarious.

 

[Joe Krow]

Say no more. Please. "Dice rolls" in themselves are not the issue. You're not going to get it. Don't try.

No, they are not. But using them as an arguments is a reason enough to to have fun of you. The fact that you find something that was known from the first news about AP an revelation is even more hilarious.

Very good then. Well, your cabbage break is over. Back to the mine.

 

[JarlFrank]

Newsflash: Big companies stopped making real RPGs after Troika died.

 

[Dionysus]

The only way it could be handled any worse were if the game were so easy that any "novice" could beat any challenge.

Absolutely, and I think that's where Obsidian is going here. They could make it impossible for a human being to consistently beat a high-level minigame with a low-skill character. Instead, they've stressed the fact that you don't need character skill to beat the minigames. Sure, they will be harder, but the same could be said about lockpicking in Oblivion. I'll admit that the jury is still out, but it's not looking good.

Maybe, but this:

We were told that there are no dice rolls that work in the background to determine the player's skill, only their ability and whatever bonuses that the skill system has unlocked for them. For example, as Mike draws a bead on an enemy, the reticle starts to shrink, indicating that his aim won't swing as wide. With improvements, it might not take him as long to focus on his mark the next time.

makes no mention of damage or super powers.

That's nice, but your ignorance of the topic isn't really an excuse here. We've already heard about the damage mods and the super powers. If you didn't know that before, then you do now.

I see, so you've already played AP

It's pretty obvious from the things that the devs are saying and the gameplay movies.

Pray tell, where did I claim it was more in the spirit of FO?

You said that AP's style is a more logical port. It isn't, for a lot of reasons. Even the shrinking reticule isn't directly comparable to anything in FO. A comparable feature in a TB game would allow the player to spend extra action points to increase hit percentages or critical rates. This is different from the extra point you can spend for aimed shots in FO. If these games have a feature comparable to aimed shots, it would be an (hypothetical) increase in latency to put the reticule on the head rather than the body.

As to more realistical: judging from the rest of your post you'll probably not get it but I'll tell you anyway: If your skill with a weapon increases you'll be more accurate, draw a bead faster, reload faster and un-jam the gun faster. You will not do more dmg. In FO3 nothing but dmg is affected outside of VATS. In the quoted passage for AP at least he drew a bead faster and possibly became more accurate. Not perfect but certainly better from both, weapon-skill affecting action-gameplay, and realism.

You don't know what you are talking about. That's fine, but there's no reason to be belligerent if you are arguing from a position of ignorance. Skills did mod accuracy outside of VATS in FO3 (although not very much). We've heard about the damage mods and super powers in AP. We haven't heard anything about weapons jamming or speed of reloading. In fact, high weapon skill in AP will allow you to do things like use unlimited ammo without reloading. How's that for "realistical," Shannow?

 

[sportforredneck]

ITT: BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

 

[ghostdog]

RPG = Dice rolls, don't you kno fool.

Well, even if the above wasn't the absolute truth, no I don't think AP will be an RPG even by DeusEx standards. It looks more like Invisible war with some Stanglehold powerups.

 

[Lurkar]

Protip - the only reason some people are up in arms about this is because OH GOD OBSIDIAN HHNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGG. Bloodlines didn't have dice rolls, and nobody freaked out over it. A game that looks like and is taking inspiration from Bloodlines doesn't have dice rolls, but OH GOD OBSIDIAN HNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGG.

 

[Joe Krow]

What are you on about? At least one die (usually more) is rolled to determine the results of each attack. Try reading Bloodline's Official Patch readme in the Docs folder:

Combat & Damage:

The following is an in-depth explanation to how combat and damage is calculated in the game.

Every weapon in the game has specific attributes given to it. These attributes are the following:

Ranged Combat Requirement - This is the minimum ranking at which the PC can use the weapon effectively. The PC can use weapons if his Feat is below the requirement. However, this will mean that he will be causing less damage. Conversely, if the PC's combat Feat is higher than the minimum, then he will cause more damage.

Damage Potential- Damage Potential is the maximum potential damage your character can do with this weapon at your character's current skill levels. The actual damage might vary if the opponent can defend against bullets (i.e. if they are supernatural, or if they have body armor).

Lethality -This is how much damage the player can cause with the weapon per die.

Feat Adjustment - This is the difference between the weapon requirement and the character's combat Feat. This can be either positive or negative.

Base Damage- This is the minimum amount of damage that the weapon can cause.

Whenever there is a hit, the damage is then calculated in the following manner –

Damage Potential = Base Damage X (Lethality + Feat Adjustment)

So, if the PC, who has a Melee combat Feat of 5, uses a Knife which has a Melee Combat Requirement of 4, Lethality of 7, and Base Damage of 3, then the Damage Potential is

24 = 3 X (7+1) .

Now if the player's Melee combat skill is 3, then the Damage Potential is 18 = 3 X (7-1)

It's important to realize that a player is only deadly effective once his combat Feat is above the requirement of the weapon.

Note, the target's defense and soak can absorb the damage and lower the Lethality number. For example, if a ghoul has heavy armor, which has a Defense of 2, there is a chance that 2 Lethality dice can be removed from the player's roll. So, in the first example, if the PC hits a ghoul with the knife and the ghoul makes both Defense rolls, then the Damage Potential is

18 = 3 X (7+1-2)

So, while a player can achieve a high damage potential with any weapon, the damage can be negated if the target has a high defense or Soak Feat.

The type of weapon and the defender plays and important role in what type of soak dice are being used.

Attack Type
Defender
Dice Pool

Blunt Melee
All
Defense + Soak Bash

Blade Melee
All
Defense + Soak Lethal

Firearms
Humans
Soak Lethal

Firearms
Defense
Defense + Soak Bash

To successfully defend or soak an attack, a roll is made behind the scenes. When there is a chance to soak or defend, a roll is made on a d10 (ten sided die. If the number is 7 or above, the defender successfully negates one die.

In summary, combat can be thought of in the following manner. The high lethality weapons are much harder to defend against and the high base damage weapons are the finesse weapons.

 

[MetalCraze]

A game that looks like and is taking inspiration from Bloodlines doesn't have dice rolls, but OH GOD OBSIDIAN HNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGG.

And which game is that? I don't remember moronic writing and characters in Bloodlines and also that Bloodlines had no stats and skills while having console-styled power-ups that make minigames easier instead.

 

[denizsi]

Recently I watched the Bourne movies again - I had forgotten how awesome they are, really.

Now if AP could, somehow, bring that awesomeness on my monitor, I will be satisfied customer. Yeah, it doesn't look like a good RPG, but what does nowadays?

The problem, to me at least, is that, judging by the interview previews and videos, AP doesn't seem to be doing anything even slightly good. Combat? Looks like boring shit with retarded AI. Dialogue? Shit. Environments? Shit. Story? Shit. Characters? Shit. This is what I gather from what's so far known to the public. I was slightly hopeful and maybe even just a little enthusiastic before more information started flowing. My impression is that it will be a bad N.O.L.F attempt with extras.

Protip - the only reason some people are up in arms about this is because OH GOD OBSIDIAN HHNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGG. Bloodlines didn't have dice rolls, and nobody freaked out over it. A game that looks like and is taking inspiration from Bloodlines doesn't have dice rolls, but OH GOD OBSIDIAN HNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGG.

Apart from the fact that you're full of fail about dice rolls, taking inspiration from Bloodlines? Where and how exactly? One could (and I certainly do) make a connection between AP and ME, as in AP seems to be a watered down version of ME except in present world, there are no connections that I can see between Bloodlines and AP, except that combat in Bloodlines is also uninspiring and banal boring shit, though it works.