Review Alpha Protocol Review Extravaganza

[Lesifoere]

Craig's trying too hard.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Or maybe Fallout 3 where you can max out all your skills.

So, you are claiming that a game with a mission-based story line, FPS game mechanics, and dialog-based navigation is more of an RPG than Fallout 3?

Is that your final answer?

Jesus cuntnigger fuckshit my brain actuall stopddspeo pewfwfonwfw ehds f

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[Tel Prydain]

BOOO! Ninja edit FTL.

It really depends one how you define Role-Playing Game, I guess.
If you define it as a game that allows you to play a role as you see fit and use relevant skills to influence the game-world, then my answer is yes.

Is that how you describe Alpha Protocol? Dude, it uses a mission-based architecture. That's from the FPS genre. What is it besides the dialog tree that qualifies it as an RPG at ALL?

Again, it depends how you define RPG. An RPG (as in pen and paper roleplaying) is a different beast to cRPGs. It’s about role playing the character. I certainly wouldn’t define it as a typical cRPG, but it allows the player a level of agency that other cRPGs don’t.

It doesn’t matter that its mission based…. You still pick which missions to do (or not do) and in what order. Other then presentation there is no difference between that and the quick map in BG2 – warping from a town to a mission area and back to town again.
Sure, you can’t revisit most areas at will – but it would make zero sense to have a spy return to a base he’d previously infiltrated anyhow.

If you define it as a game where you can wonder about and explore a pre-determined story at your own pace, then I guess that Fallout 3 might be your thing.

RPGs are my "thing". From 1990 to 2000 Bethesda was the worst of the major developers that were making RPGs. Now they are the best. Mainly because, they are the only major developer that still makes them.

Fallout 3 was a good effort for their first actual RPG. :p

Seriously, I was kinda surprised at how much they did right in that game. Sure, they mangled the setting (more like 30yrs after the blast, not 200), some of the characters were retarded, they ignored most of the lore and their moral scale was a bit rubbish…. But it was no Oblivion.
And that fact that I thought some of the characters were retarded should be considered a victory considering that their previous game didn’t HAVE characters.

Looking forward to seeing what Obsidian do with the engine. With the technical stuff sorted, it could be a great game.

That’s just my thoughts so far – it has plenty of time to fall to pieces yet.

The game can be finished in 10 hours on average from what I've read. You could have completed it by now if you weren't so busy praising it on the internet

Alas. Work.
As soon as today is over I'll be back into it.
I'm in New Zealand - here it's not even 5 in the afternoon yet, and I don't finish until 6.
*sigh*

To elaborate a little more, each of Alpha Protocol’s ‘missions’ could be the equivalent of a DnD module, while the safe-houses are the equivalent of the prep time that there is inevitably between gaming sessions.

Right. And the flagship in Wing Commander was the safe house, the missions the DnD modules. And wandering around initiating dialogs on the flagship with anyone who will talk to you was the prep-time.

Same exact architecture, only using 20 year newer technology.

Okay, lets lay this out:
- In AP you acquire and distribute stats that effect your options when ‘in the field’.
- AP’s missions branch based on your choices. (Wing Commander’s missions branched based on if you win or lose.)
- AP allows you to arrive at different endings based on your choices. WC has a ‘win’ ending and a ‘lose’ ending based on how much you suck.
- You gather a (highly customizable) array of items. (I suppose you could argue that you customize ship loadout in WC, but I think we both know that a false comparison).
- You choose your missions, and what order you want to do them in.
- You make lots of choices. Those choices have consequences.

In other words, being mission based doesn’t (in and of itself) make Alpha Protocol any less of an RPG... If you define RPG as a game that allows you to play a role as you see fit and use relevant skills to influence the game-world.

You're repeating yourself, and still not making sense

You seemed like the kind of guy who would require key concepts to be repeated. :twisted:

And I wouldn't call Might & Magic a classic RPG. I was far more of an Ultima man.

of course it was. Both franchises were classic RPG, as were the D&D goldbox games, the Bard's Tale series and so many others. One franchise that was not a "classic RPG" was Wing Commander. And Wing Commander used the same recipe Alpha Protocol uses.

If by classic you mean old.

Also, it seems like you haven't actually played Alpha Protocol, as to compare it's missions to Wing Commander's is wildly off the mark.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Stop talking , you're both retarded

 

[Jaesun]

Craig's trying too hard.

Yeah.

Tel Prydain get's a few KKK though. Good stuff. Riveting.

 

[Severian Silk]

I watched the GiantBomb video and on second thought actually thought it looked sweet.

But you don't need hands to watch videos. :/

 

[Grunker]

Stop feeding the goddamn troll, guys.

 

[kris]

I clocked a couple of hours and I don't in any way regret buying it.

 

[Lockkaliber]

Couple of hours in. Enjoying it a lot so far.

 

[CraigCWB]

To whoever suggested I should "lurk" here for a while before commenting... why? It's fairly easy to tally up all the asshats who respond to anyone who disagrees with them by making abusive personal attacks.

What is surprising to me is that so many of the worst offenders when it comes to immature and aggressive behavior here are folks with thousands of comments. Who knew a site like this would be so popular with console kids?

Rhetorical question... game designers obviously know what their target demographics REALLY are

Anyway...

Ultima 8 was a horrible travesty compared to the previous games. However I do kinda respect the idea behind the story – putting the Avatar in a world where just being a happy little fairy wasn’t going to work.
Too bad they botched it by crapping all over the lore and turning it into an action game.

So, I take it you don't disagree that dude lost all hos "old-skool" credentials with that comment?

I bought U8 the day it was released and played it without having read any of the reviews, and I think I gave up on it after two or three days. And I consider U7 to have been one of the best RPGs ever made. Whatever they got wrong, they got it VERY wrong. I personally liked U9 better than U8. It didn't seem very "Ultima" but it was a decent game in its own right by the standards of ~1998. You know what, though? I had such a tude about origin by then I didn't even try the game until it'd been out a couple of years.

I can remember playing Might and Magic, I think it was three or four, and being awe-struck at the size of the world. Then I got tired of the samey battles, the non-story and lame character interaction.
Basically, I see them as most codex folk saw Oblivion.

On the bright side, I always really liked the box art.

Four was the "Xeen" games, right? Those weren't very good imo. The game engine was very obsolete by the time they managed to get that one out, and it seemed to me that in addition to that they didn't invest much effort into it.

M&M III in 1992 was a fantastic game, though. To me it was kinda like Bard's Tale, only done right. Totally different design philosophy from Ultima though.

One of my favorite RPGs of all time was Magic candle II, a game that was very popular in the 1980s but has been long since forgotten. Another one of those forgotten games that deserves better is Sentinel Worlds. I could actually come up with quite a list. There were so many great RPGs back then, by big shops and independents both, that I can't understand how anyone examining the dismal offerings we've had in recent years can be well-pleased with the state of the genre.

 

[CraigCWB]

Ah, just discovered the "ignore" feature! That's bound to make my stay here more pleasant

BOOO! Ninja edit FTL.

Again, it depends how you define RPG. An RPG (as in pen and paper roleplaying) is a different beast to cRPGs. It’s about role playing the character. I certainly wouldn’t define it as a typical cRPG, but it allows the player a level of agency that other cRPGs don’t.

Yes, I remember tabletop D&D with armies of miniatures. For me, it was mostly about painting miniatures and rolling dice. I don't think I ever met any two people who approached D&D in the same way. I valued a good DM more than anything else. Anyway, there are two basic way to look at a roleplaying game. One approach is the theatrical one where you do everything as your character would. The other is where your character does everything as you think YOU would, if you were in that position. I go with the latter - it's after all a ROLE you are playing, not a CHARACTER- and you seem to go with the former.

And that's fine. There's no rule for such things.

It doesn’t matter that its mission based….

It does matter to me if it's mission based, because that's a red flag that the game is trying to be something other than an RPG. Namely, an RTS or an FPS. When the player has more free-will in a game like Jagged Alliance 2 or the Total War games than in a game that calls itself an RPG, that's a problem.

All they have to do with games like Alpha Protocol is change the name from "Action RPG" to "Action Adventure" and I'll stop complaining. I don't know why they are hesitant to do so. These games play very much like old school adventure games in the way the story is told, and adventure games are more popular than RPGs these days anyway.

Fallout 3 was a good effort for their first actual RPG. :p

Seriously, I was kinda surprised at how much they did right in that game. Sure, they mangled the setting (more like 30yrs after the blast, not 200), some of the characters were retarded, they ignored most of the lore and their moral scale was a bit rubbish…. But it was no Oblivion.
And that fact that I thought some of the characters were retarded should be considered a victory considering that their previous game didn’t HAVE characters.

I agree with you about all that, except that I think there was an RPG in Oblivion under all the mediocrity. It was a reasonable stepping stone between Morrowind (which was just a sandbox with no game imo) and Fallout 3. I never managed to get far in Morrowind, as it literally bored me to tears whenever I tried to force myself to play it. Oblivion was actually an OK game, in a casual kind of way. I never found myself getting compulsive with it the way I do with really good games, but there was a lot of fun stuff to do in it. FO3... well, if anyone knows of a better RPG that's come out in the last few years I'd like to hear about it.

Looking forward to seeing what Obsidian do with the engine. With the technical stuff sorted, it could be a great game.

Me too. I actually have a pretty high opinion of the crew at Obsidian, and I think their talents complement Bethesda's deficiencies pretty well.

Okay, lets lay this out:

- In AP you acquire and distribute stats that effect your options when ‘in the field’.

Yeah, Wing Commander doesn't have that as far as I can recall. But I guess the question is how much worse the game would have been if they just didn't bother with stats and made everything based on the PLAYER'S skill, instead. Is there really a lot to do in AP that requires complex character development? All I've heard about is the FPS mechanics and 3 minigames. System Shock did that without stats, to the best of my recollection. Inventory items that increased skill with mini-games, wasn't it? I admit I could be wrong, it's been more than 15 years since I played it

- AP’s missions branch based on your choices. (Wing Commander’s missions branched based on if you win or lose.)

They DO branch, though. And I think it was in WC4 that they started offering choices that allowed the player to steer the story line to an extent.

- AP allows you to arrive at different endings based on your choices. WC has a ‘win’ ending and a ‘lose’ ending based on how much you suck.

AP also shrunk itself down to a 10 hour game in order to provide all those different story branches and endings. Virtually any developer could do that with any game. This would have a higher "cool factor" if they'd made a full length game and managed to pull that off.

- You gather a (highly customizable) array of items. (I suppose you could argue that you customize ship loadout in WC, but I think we both know that a false comparison).

Can I switch to Jagged Alliance 2 this portion of my debate?

- You choose your missions, and what order you want to do them in.

- You make lots of choices. Those choices have consequences.

OK, but the question is how "RPGish" are those two items? I think the mission architecture is obviously NOT RPGish, since it was lifted from the FPS and RTS genres. AP doesn't get points for that :p

The dialog trees? Choices and Consequences? That's from the old text adventures in the 1980s. Ever played 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"? I don't recall NPCs spewing at me a lot while playing D&D, and presenting me with a pick list of options for what I wanted to do next. I recall us players making our decisions based on what the DM was telling us about the setting, after a lot of followup questioning. Again, AP doesn't get RPG points for that!

(but don't get me wrong, I like colorful NPC spew and good voice acting. I just don't think it should be THE core game mechanic, in a game that styles itself an RPG)

Also, it seems like you haven't actually played Alpha Protocol, as to compare it's missions to Wing Commander's is wildly off the mark.

You're right. I haven't, and I won't. I learned my lesson with Deus Ex

Mass Effect 1 was as far from an RPG on the shooter side as I'm willing to go. Mass Effect 2 was too far, and I regret having bought it. From what all the reviewers have said (and you seem to be agreeing with them, no?) AP is entirely a mission-based game (the Mass Effect games were only partially so) and the gameplay advances entirely through NPC dialog choices (Again, the Mass Effect games were only partially so).

Alpha Protocol is too far from an RPG to be of interest to me. Your mileage may vary, of course

 

[Clockwork Knight]

You can't silence my voice, retardo reaver. The Wasteland must hear about this!

 

[hoochimama]

It doesn’t matter that its mission based…. You still pick which missions to do (or not do) and in what order. Other then presentation there is no difference between that and the quick map in BG2 – warping from a town to a mission area and back to town again.

It does matter to me, an empty apartment is not the same as a town where you can walk around in, choose to engage in conversations with npcs, get main quests+sidequests, some of them taking place inside the town(and can range from combat to dialog, to stealth, to crafting, to puzzle solving etc), deal with merchants, explore the place for loot,lore and flavor.

For me towns in rpgs are the glue of the gameworld, they make it consistent, they let me believe my character is actually part of a living and perhaps reactive world, that people live in it. AP's abstraction of this makes the game feel much closer to a splinter cell type game than an rpg.

With what I've played of AP so far I don't get the impression of playing a character in a persistent virtual world. The apartment feels like a glorified mission select menu. You also get pre and post mission debriefs in splinter cell type games, you can pick your missions and avoid some, you can also get black market goods through emails, you can also get intel or pay for something that alters mission parameters.

The dialogs in those games are not typically interactive, although halfway through AP the consequences to what I've said or done so far seem mostly fluff(+1/-1 like with someone, random perk, cash) and I'm not a big fan of how the game tried to implement a sense of urgency to dialog responses by putting every single one of them on a timer of questionable length.

I'm hoping that later on the consequences will evolve into being completely barred from certain missions, restriction of certain story branches, some npcs never showing up, others dieing. That's what I expect from consequences, not slight influence boosts and other minor stat adjustments.

 

[Forest Dweller]

So let me get this right: as far as places to be in the game - there are only the safehouses, and the missions? And the missions always involve people trying to kill you?

 

[Jaedar]

So let me get this right: as far as places to be in the game - there are only the safehouses, and the missions? And the missions always involve people trying to kill you?

No.
Some missions are purely dialogue, but those are in a minority.

 

[hoochimama]

Those missions are just one cutscene dialog with one character where you give about 5 responses, lasts 7 minutes tops.

Aside from the different location+cutscene they're just like the pre and post mission dialogs you have with your mission handlers(typically through a tv or datapad).

 

[Ausir]

I'm hoping that later on the consequences will evolve into being completely barred from certain missions, restriction of certain story branches, some npcs never showing up, others dieing. That's what I expect from consequences, not slight influence boosts and other minor stat adjustments.

Yes, they do.

For me, AP is actually a combination of a weak shooter with decent RPG elements and a great adventure game.

Also, I can't get this fucking song out of my mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHLXnyY537c

 

[Deleted member 7219]

"What about all those European reviews, or we just pretend Europe doesn't exist ?"

If only I could since that continent created Hitler. Yes, Yes indeed. I went THERE.

Your mom created Hitler. Yes, yes indeed. I went THERE.

 

[denizsi]

Why do Codexers have to be so retarded? Level of idiocy has taken a steep incline within the last few weeks.

 

[kris]

So let me get this right: as far as places to be in the game - there are only the safehouses, and the missions? And the missions always involve people trying to kill you?

No.
Some missions are purely dialogue, but those are in a minority.

Also seen a mission were you are just to identify people with your sniper scope.