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Am I the only person who doesn't want Starcraft 2?

kingcomrade

Kingcomrade
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Make something new for a change. Blizzard is going to have trouble topping Dawn of War for the sci-fi genre, in any case.
I do hope that whetever they do departs from the Warcraft 3 style of play. It was so boring. Everything took forever to die, all the units were so overbalanced...the replays from championships are also boring. They all play night elves, build 100 of the same unit (usually huntresses), and run them around in circles instead of committing to battle, the cowards.
At least in the original Starcraft I kinda got the feeling that I was building a war engine, having to balance production capacity with income and infrastructure expansion.

Maybe they can get Patrick Stewart to do the new Jim Raynor.
 

Atrokkus

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They all play night elves, build 100 of the same unit (usually huntresses), and run them around in circles instead of committing to battle, the cowards.
When was the last time you watched war3 replays? Release date?
It's 1.19 patch now, lots of units got nerfed, balance is pretty good now (of course, not perfect, but it's an idilly). Huntresses are meat now, wake up! Anyways, just get a grip and stop talking shit about that which is beyond you.

StarCraft and Warcraft are two VERY different games, and Blizzard did not strive to make StarCraft with orcs. Yes, StarCraft is faster, it's larger-scaled, with more map control required. Warcraft is centered on heroes, map control is not high priority, but the unit building strategy is, as well as micro (dancing units etc - you gotta keep lots of units alive, unlike in starcraft where you have them en masse).

Blizzard might have lost some staff due to Blizzard North eliminationm, but strategy department is intact and great as always. So it all depends on the management - will they start StarCraft2, or keep upgrading this damn WoW all the time.
 

CrusaderTemplar

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but there was once a starcraft using a warcraft 2 engine. which was scrapped. fyi starcraft gone to hell. warcraft too. I dont trust blizzard games anymore.
 

Atrokkus

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I dont trust blizzard games anymore.
Why?
Does your negativity towards Blizzard correlate to StarCraft Ghost development? Or WoW? In any case, this is irrelevant, because that's separate franchises! SC:G was never meant to be a SC2 replacement. Hell, it's even developed by a separate team...
They said that they WILL make SC2, and I have faith in them. JUst as I did 10 years ago.
 

Avé

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Warcraft 3 wasnt as good as WC2, D2 wasnt as good as D1, and I have no doubt SC2 wont be as good as the already average SC ;)

Supreme Commander!
 

Section8

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Because it had Mark Hamill, Biff from Back to the Future, Shredder from the Ninja Turtles movie and Ginger Lynn Allen?
 

theverybigslayer

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Avè said:
Warcraft 3 wasnt as good as WC2, D2 wasnt as good as D1, and I have no doubt SC2 wont be as good as the already average SC ;)

Supreme Commander!

Supreme Commander is my only hope.
Anyway Blizzard puke one and it will be better then Dawn of War.
 

Mandake

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Oct 13, 2005
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I think SC scenario is still fresh enough for a sequel. I enjoyed playing SC, so why shouldn't I enjoy playing SC2.

On the other hand Supreme Commander looks great and I'm really looking forward to it.
 

kingcomrade

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mEtaLL1x said:
When was the last time you watched war3 replays? Release date?
It's 1.19 patch now, lots of units got nerfed, balance is pretty good now (of course, not perfect, but it's an idilly). Huntresses are meat now, wake up! Anyways, just get a grip and stop talking shit about that which is beyond you.

Thank you, genius. Beyond me? You're retarded.

Latest patch and everything, Frozen Throne. I just download the replays for the championships off blizzard.com. They all play Night Elves or Undead, and they all go either huntresses and dryads (if they use a second unit at all) or gargoyles with destroyers, almost without fail.

StarCraft and Warcraft are two VERY different games, and Blizzard did not strive to make StarCraft with orcs. Yes, StarCraft is faster, it's larger-scaled, with more map control required. Warcraft is centered on heroes, map control is not high priority, but the unit building strategy is, as well as micro (dancing units etc - you gotta keep lots of units alive, unlike in starcraft where you have them en masse).

Gee, I couldn't tell the difference! Different games! And it's always good to know that building things in the a certain order is a big part of strategy!
The dancing IS what I was talking about. It makes the game so wimpy because everybody is afraid to engage the enemy, and you are actually at a disadvantage if you seek out battle because the enemy can disengage without taking any noticable damage. That's why heroes are such a big part, they're the only people who can do lots of instant damage.

Blizzard might have lost some staff due to Blizzard North eliminationm, but strategy department is intact and great as always. So it all depends on the management - will they start StarCraft2, or keep upgrading this damn WoW all the time.

I still think they should do something new and interesting. Hell if people want Starcraft 2 just use the Warcraft 3 engine while you make the next generation. And WoW is making them buckets of money.
 

kingcomrade

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Mandake said:
I think SC scenario is still fresh enough for a sequel. I enjoyed playing SC, so why shouldn't I enjoy playing SC2.

On the other hand Supreme Commander looks great and I'm really looking forward to it.

I'm not saying SC2 would suck. I'm saying something new would be better.
 

kris

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If you with new think of a new Starcraft game, but with new story and races then I agree. Moving forward and such. The starcraft story gone long enough, make a second game as something fresh when it comes to that aspect. Otherwise I found Starcraft to be the most enjoyable RTS I ever played.
 

Atrokkus

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They all play Night Elves or Undead, and they all go either huntresses and dryads (if they use a second unit at all) or gargoyles with destroyers, almost without fail.
I was referring to your "huntress-only" statement, which was definately false, cuz the days of "one-unit-type domination" are gone with war3vanilla. That's what the best achievement of the exp. set - it adds variety. You can't always use huntresses, well, unless the enemy is weaker and can't change his strategy accordingly.
Yes, there is disbalance. But not a strong one. Orcs are still viable, very much so actually - and players like Grubby and Zacard prove that.

The dancing IS what I was talking about. It makes the game so wimpy because everybody is afraid to engage the enemy, and you are actually at a disadvantage if you seek out battle because the enemy can disengage without taking any noticable damage.
That's right, but what's wrong with that? It's a different strategy approach, taht's all.

I still think they should do something new and interesting.
You mean, you dont' want to see StarCraft2 at all? Or you would like SC2 to be a world of difference from SC1? Well, I'm pretty sure they will change the gameplay dramatically, just like they did in war3 after war2, although the basis, i think, would still be there - that is, SC2 should be as fast-paced as SC1 was, without much of war3 influence. I love war3, but I don't want it in SC, and vice-versa.
 

kingcomrade

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I'm not talking about gameplay, I know it would be different. But you're still going back to the same universe. There isn't going to be anything really new. Warcraft 2 and 3 really took place is far different settings, though they incorporated the storyline from 2 into 3. But they really can't completely revamp the Starcraft setting like they did for Warcraft. What are they going to do? Add another race? Boring.
(actually I suspect the storyline's going to have something to do with that special mission from Brood War, with the Zerg Protoss hybrids OMG X FILES)

I DO really love Starcraft. It's one of my favorite games ever, just by the way. I really just don't much like Warcraft 3 FT, though. It's just slow, it emphasizes everything I hate about RTS. Small unit sizes, micromanagement, excessive unit health, etc.
If Blizzard had the resources, sure make Starcraft 2 alongside their new game. But I hate sequels because there's nothing much new to explore.

And for the replays. I really wish there were good Human players. But the only time I remember seeing a Human player in one of the championship replays, he got beat pretty easily.

As for being a "different style of play," yeah? It's still boring. I want to see some combat, not some guy waiting for critical mass because his build order is better. Battle should be logistics and strategy, not dancing tactics and build orders.

By the way, why do the night elves call themselves the night elves? That seems kinda silly. We don't call ourselves the day humans.
 

Atrokkus

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Warcraft 2 and 3 really took place is far different settings, though they incorporated the storyline from 2 into 3.
Please explains this to me: how come they are different?

Small unit sizes, micromanagement,
Just FYI, StarCraft is more micro-heavy: at first minutes of the game you have almost the same micro-policy as in War3 -- save units, see that casualties are minor (remember the marine-vs-lurkers trick?). Then, when you amass the forces, and the unit count is much greater than in War3, you have to control all the packs simultaneously, making drops, harrassing, scouting etc. It involves much more micro than controlling than in War3, because there you rarely get more than 2 forces that require *simultaneous* control (i.e., harrassing enemy's expansion, while engaging in fullforce battle somewhere else), and drops are practically nonexistant (except for some maps) in war3 (too bad, actually). Well, of course, you can play StarCraft without much microcontrol skills, but you wouldn't last long versus a professional gamer that way.

And for the replays. I really wish there were good Human players. But the only time I remember seeing a Human player in one of the championship replays, he got beat pretty easily.
Well, first of all, one tournament is not a full picture. But yes, humans are a bit underpowered in this patch (in some previous patches humans were the strongest, btw, esp. in the end of war3classic). There are some good humans out there (INsomnia, Swain, Rainbow etc), and it's sure possible to win a big tourney playing human, since even despite the evident imbalance, the primary factor is player's skill, not his race, and I think that's a great success of the latest patches (in war3classic race was dominant over skill).

It's still boring
WEll, tastes differ. Maybe if I was only a spectator I would get bored, too, but I did play WC3 very extensively, participating in numerous tourneys, and I was *struggling* to become bored, because my career outside gaming depended on that! :)

Battle should be logistics and strategy
Yes, it should. And it is.
Logistics is there. Esepcailly since the units are so important to keep alive, and that even a single fullforce skirmish can pretty much decide the game is a *VERY* important factor that encourages players to be very strategic, constantly thinking about *when* and *where* it is better to engage in battle, and that's core strategical aspect. Also, despite the concept being hero-centric, there are numerous instances of multi-force (albeit usually no more than 2-3) simultaneous combat, harassment and whatnot. Btw, hero-harassment is another great feature of warcraft. For instance, creepjacking is always fun (both for player and observer) to see in action.
Plus, the core-aspect, just as in StarCraft, is the unit-countering -- that is, knowing what your enemy uses, and reacting to that accordingly. That's why you can't say that *all* battles are done with the same set of units all the time.

By the way, why do the night elves call themselves the night elves?
WEll, night elves have their own language, and they have a word that they refer to themselves with, but I forgot it.
 

Kraken

Scholar
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Jul 6, 2005
Messages
157
Kingcomrade, I honestly don't think you know enough about Warcraft 3 playing to be calling it boring. It's like hearing someone that doesn't know any of the rules or understands anything about the gameplay in football talk about how boring it is. First, not everyone plays Night Elves or Undead. The latest biggest tournaments/championships (CPL USA & ESWC 2005) was won by a Human and an Orc respectivly. Second, I don't think you can look at a few replays and say everyone does the same. Sure, there are usually some dominant strategies, until someone founds a great counter, and then someone finds another strategy and so on. The game is evolving all the time.

If you want some Human replays, search for either Tod or Bjarke. Tod is probably the best human player right now (He won the CPL), recently won the french WCG qualifier and came second in the Clanbase 1on1 LAN finale. Bjarke is another world class human that likes to do some unorthodox strategies, which can be quite fun if you want to see something different.
 

Atrokkus

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If you want some Human replays, search for either Tod or Bjarke.
Oh, yes, almost forgotten about those guys. Tod had some downfalls a while back, but he's in good form now, i guess.

Kraken, do you play professionally, or an amature?
Can't say much about myself - i was a champion of my part of the country (oblast', dunno how you call that), but now retired cuz have ltos of other occupations now. Being more of a sport analyst now.
 

RuySan

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Section8 said:
Because it had Mark Hamill, Biff from Back to the Future, Shredder from the Ninja Turtles movie and Ginger Lynn Allen?

i was mentioning warcraft, not wing commander
 

kingcomrade

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roguefrog said:
I didn't even like Starcraft really. Total Annihilation is king until maybe SupCom comes out.

you people have such a hardon for supreme commander. I loved Total Annihilation too (I'm one of the lucky people who didn't know what Starcraft was, so I picked it up while browsing at the store). Today's games seem to be all hype though. I can't think of a single strategy game that delivered what it was promising in the past two or three years, besides maybe Dawn of War. God that game is fun.
 

xemous

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StarCraft and Warcraft are two VERY different games, and Blizzard did not strive to make StarCraft with orcs. Yes, StarCraft is faster, it's larger-scaled, with more map control required. Warcraft is centered on heroes, map control is not high priority, but the unit building strategy is, as well as micro (dancing units etc - you gotta keep lots of units alive, unlike in starcraft where you have them en masse).

Completely wrong. Starcraft unit alchemly is more advanced that warcraps, and every unit counts, you don't lose them en masse. It has a more intensive micro and macro management game. Warcraft is a childs version of starcraft, think of it as Starcraft training wheels, but the kiddies never get off them, they just ditch the bike when they're done.
 

Avé

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Messages
468
xemous said:
StarCraft and Warcraft are two VERY different games, and Blizzard did not strive to make StarCraft with orcs. Yes, StarCraft is faster, it's larger-scaled, with more map control required. Warcraft is centered on heroes, map control is not high priority, but the unit building strategy is, as well as micro (dancing units etc - you gotta keep lots of units alive, unlike in starcraft where you have them en masse).

Completely wrong. Starcraft unit alchemly is more advanced that warcraps, and every unit counts, you don't lose them en masse. It has a more intensive micro and macro management game. Warcraft is a childs version of starcraft, think of it as Starcraft training wheels, but the kiddies never get off them, they just ditch the bike when they're done.
WC2 > SC
 

Atrokkus

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Completely wrong. Starcraft unit alchemly is more advanced that warcraps, and every unit counts, you don't lose them en masse. It has a more intensive micro and macro management game. Warcraft is a childs version of starcraft, think of it as Starcraft training wheels, but the kiddies never get off them, they just ditch the bike when they're done.
StarCraft *is* more intensive, micro-wise, I've already said that and provided examples.
*But* it all boils down to balance and *player skills*.
WarCraft3's balance is being polished very well now and soon it'll reach and maybe even surpass that of SC (well, it prolly won't surpass, but still). That's what really counts here.
The "difficulty" and "intensity" of a game is a very subjective matter. That is, it'll be extremely difficult for an inexperienced player play vs gosu ANYWAY, no matter whether they play SC or WC3:TFT. Warcraft is not training wheels. Try to fucking win some tourney and then tell me what's training wheels and what's not.
 

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