I really like the idea of simulation, of "miniaturising" the real world, using only enough abstraction to keep things manageable. The advantage of simulation is that it is (or should be) intuitive (the rules are familiar, you don't have to learn anything new, you can figure out how things are likely to work just by grasping the concepts).
I've always thought the fundamentals of D&D are actually pretty sound - stats, stat modifiers, etc., and the general idea of the attributes as modeling the basic traits of living entities. But I was wondering if it could be tweaked a bit to make it slightly more realistic.
To be more realistic, I think you have to blend the physical stats with the mental ones a bit more, since both are often involved. In fact almost all our various qualities are involved in almost everything we do. Almost. But the question is how far do you go before it all becomes too much of a headache to think about in a gaming context?
To make it more simulationist but still abstracted enough to be manageable, I propose using paired modifiers, where one is "weighted" more than the other. The advantage of this is that you could blend the effect of two physical stats, or a mental and physical stat, without things getting too out of hand (hopefully).
So as an exercise, I ran through the general types of weapons according to melee/ranged, and low/mid/hi tech categorizations. (Low tech being something you could feasibly make yourself, or with just an apprentice, and/or with basic tools, a smelter, etc.; mid tech being something that would require a workshop, with more sophisticated tools, all of which would require more collaboration and division of labour between more people to make, maybe a machine shop at the high end of it; and with hi tech requiring a whole complex civilization, with intricate division of labour across many peoples. I'm thinking that these tiers provide a ready-made form of progression that's feasible, where to some extent the tiers can "fold over" each other - for example, a tough accurate guy who's not too smart but smart enough can still use a mid-tech ballistic weapon effectively against a big-brained dweeb with a more powerful hi tech weapon - although the hi tech weapon has a higher ceiling, the ballistic is still pretty effective at the point where the lower end of hi tech is in contact with the higher end of the mid tech. This kind of scenario is particularly suitable for world-building that mixes up tech from various ages as a form of progression, and of course if you have magic as well, that should be roughly an alternative viable path to hi tech, but one that could be pursued by societies that aren't as large or complex.)
Note: in the following, the heavier-weighted stat is in caps, the lesser-weighted stat is lowercase. So BODY+mind or STR+per means "both contribute, but the caps stat has more weight." I'm not even sure what I mean by "weighting" here - whether it should be the whole stat, or a percentage of it, or just the standard D&D type +1-+4 etc. modifiers derived from attributes. This is just a sort of rough qualitative look at it, thinking about what traits and qualities are actually operative in my being when I imagine myself using x type of weapon or armor. That's not to say the way I'm cutting the cake is the only way to cut it, but I tried to think hard about the balance between having better simulation and still keeping it relatively simple.
[Later note: forgot to add, with something like BODY+mind I'm thinking of some kind of average of the 3 body stats and an average of the 3 mental stats. Again, how it would work with the specific paired attribute stats related to weapon types and tech types I'm not sure. Maybe the paired attribute stats would have more to do with specialization and the 3+3 would be more generalized.]
I have zero design experience of course, this is all just from a punter's point of view in terms of what I'd like to see. I just find it interesting to think about, and maybe others here would care to muse along with me
First a preliminary look at:-
*************
PRIMARY ATTRIBUTES
Nothing terribly new or exciting here, just a bit of tweaking. At the raw level, the attributes don't govern much that's terribly important, but in weighted combinations they contribute in various ways (some of this should be familiar, some is a bit tweaked).
STR - absolute amount governs encumbrance; some mixed in as parts of threshold requirements and to modify acc/dam
DEX - absolute amount governs speed of action (could also be called SPD, DEX is just more familiar); also modifies acc/dam
CON - mass, robustness, solidity, RES to poison, disease; can modify dam or even acc too (e.g. countering recoil).
[Note: I was also thinking about secondary physical attributes as results of mixing the primaries, e.g. DEX+CON=IMPA as contributing to impact or damage in some way (f=ma). DEX+STR=IMPU (impulse - particularly important for unarmed, monks, etc, and important for something like PEN, melee penetration through DR. Not sure how to mix it in, but there's something important here too.]
_______
INT - governs or modifies knowledge, problem solving, etc; memory would be better separate, but it's ok folded in here
PER - represents sensory acuteness, governs mainly accuracy
WIL - represents force of will or spirit, determination, RES to mental effects
[Again, mental secondaries could be mixes of two or more here: e.g. INT+PER+WIL=WIS, wisdom or genius, not a thing in itself but a resultant, maybe even mixed in with XP, particularly for wisdom, which tends to develop with experience.]
_______
Then finally I think we need something that inputs back to the character from their physical and mental qualities as reflected in others' experience, particularly in a social context:-
BEA - beauty or handsomeness governs others' reaction to physical appearance (yes, I like Arcanum )
CHA - governs others' reaction to persuasion, coolness, leadership and other mental qualities
[Again, you could have secondaries: a low or negative BEA could join with CON and WIL to give INT or intimidation. Low or negative attributes could play all sorts of interesting roles generally, come to think of it. low or negative DEX + high CON as clumsiness, which could even be advantageous sometimes! But I suppose that's depends on how rich or complex the game and story are too.]
________
So essentially the basis would be a fairly standard D&D-type system where you have an "average Joe" level, above which increasing increments of + modifiers require more and more raw stat. It would probably have to be more fine-grained though, going in tens or hundreds rather than units. Otherwise modifications would be too step-wise, rather than smooth curves. But I think a notional relation to D&D should be maintained for the familiarity. So 180 rather than 18. Perhaps you could just have the fine-grained inbetween stat presented as (e.g.) 18.5 instead of 185 for the end user, or 18.54 instead of 1854, to make it easier on the brain and still be semi-familiar.
Since these qualities are are relatively fixed and won't change that much in a lifetime (maybe only in the .xx area bar one of them going up in +1s (or +1.00s or +10.00s), combinations of these should perhaps only give small (but multiplicative) boosts.
The biggest impacts on damage calculations should be first the weapons themselves, as is traditional, then xp modifiers as modest additives, then only lastly the "innate talent" modifiers as small multiplicatives. Skill and experience are ultimately more important for impact on the world than innate talent; innate talent should only set ceiling and floors, with only a small amount of plasticity.
The usual min-maxing possibilities based around dumping one or at most two stats should be possible, but one ought to have to think carefully about what to dump in relation to what to boost (as usual). A more even spread should also be viable, since nothing goes to waste. (Though again, this depends on the design and scope of the game, how much stuff you put in there to meet the player, their actions and choices.)
(Incidentally, in some of this I've been particularly influence by Troubleshooter, and the way the "Feat" equivalents (rather feat bundles), called "Masteries," are presented conceptually and in a simulationist fashion (very carefully and evocatively named, with a little poem encapsulating what the feat bundle does). Yet at the same time it's all exposed, and anyone who wants to dig into the math can. The end result is that a casual can do a tolerably good build just intuitively by following the descriptions, while the min-maxer can get that extra edge by carefully parsing everything out if they wish. That's the ideal to me, and that's the way to keep these games reaching a wider audience while at the same time not losing the core grognard fanbase.)
*************
Again, damage should mostly rely on weapon - bigger/better weapons do more damage, as standard. The attributes should have an effect on damage and accuracy (damage more for melee than ranged), but far more on accuracy (for both melee and ranged), while skill and experience should have the biggest modifying impact (either via leveling automatically, or via choosing to boost a skill on level up).
So on top of the standard weapons-do-damage we need roughly three things:-
1) Thresholds to wield/use (e.g. as standard, bigger and/or better weapons = more impact therefore more damage, then add bonus from the paired combined stats as below - somewhat similar though less important with low tech ranged, even less important with mid and hi tech, where the weapon is responsible for even more of the damage, so threshold gets more important the higher up the tech tiers you go, but threshold depends more and more on the mental attributes than the physical ones)
2) Accuracy once wielded (for melee and ranged, depends on how well you can "handle" said weapons, and where you make contact with the opponent while using them)
3) Crit acc once wielded (crit acc depends on perception and knowledge of target) and crit damage (depends more on knowledge of target and quality of weapon).
1) is related to BODY or BODY+mind, 2) is related to weapon property plus BODY, BODY+mind or MIND+body, 3) is related to weapon property plus mental qualities only, with only small relevance to body. Accuracy is never a floating abstraction but always accuracy-with-x (can you handle it physically, do you know how to use it, have you RTFM-ed?)
************
EFFECTS OF PAIRED, WEIGHTED STATS ON WEAPONS
Low tech LIGHT MELEE weapons (daggers and stilettos to swords, maces, etc.) require BODY+mind.
STR+con (less/more for lighter/heavier within this category) govern threshold to wield.
STR+dex scale accuracy.
PER+wil scale crit accuracy.
Low tech HEAVY MELEE weapons (heavier single or 2H, polearms, etc.) require BODY+mind.
CON+str (less/more for lighter/heavier within this category) govern threshold to wield.
STR+con scale accuracy.
WIL+per scale crit accuracy.
[Note: Mid to Hi tech (complex mechanical or lightsaber type) melee weapons can be lighter than low tech (lower STR+con or CON+str req), but with equivalent or more damage.]
Low tech RANGED weapons (bows, thrown, slung) require MIND+body.
STR+dex govern threshold to wield and reload.
STR+per scale accuracy.
PER+wil scale crit accuracy.
Mid tech LIGHT RANGED weapons (crossbows, guns) require mix of MIND+body.
DEX+str govern threshold to wield and reload. (Also have to cope with some recoil.)
PER+dex scale accuracy.
PER+wil scale crit accuracy.
Mid tech HEAVY RANGED weapons (machine guns, rocket launchers, etc.) require mix of BODY+mind.
CON+str govern threshold to wield. (Even moar recoil absorption necessary!!!).
PER+str scale accuracy.
WIL+per scale crit accuracy.
Hi tech LIGHT RANGED weapons (laz0r pistols, plasma etc.) require mix of MIND+body. RTFM!
INT+wil govern threshold to wield.
PER+dex scale accuracy.
PER+int scale the crit accuracy.
Hi tech HEAVY RANGED weapons (laz0r machine guns, micronuke rocket launchers, etc.) require mix of MIND+body
STR+dex threshold to wield (Some recoil absorption necessary but less than with heavy mid tech.
PER+wil scale accuracy.
INT+per scale crit accuracy.
***************
EFFECTS OF PAIRED, WEIGHTED STATS ON ARMOR/SHIELDS/SHIELDING
Low tech Armor (padded, leather, studded leather + lighter shields) requires BODY only.
DEX+con threshold to wear.
DEX+str to negate armor penalties.
Mid tech Armor (scale, chain, plate + heavier shields) requires BODY only.
STR+con threshold to wear.
STR+dex to negate armor penalties.
Hi tech Armor and technobabble shielding (kevlar, hi tech materials, repulsor shields, etc.) require MIND+body. Maybe just some INT+str or INT+con threshold to wear, and there are hardly any penalties to negate anyway - we're leaning much more on the innate properties of the objects, with less relation to the personal attributes and stats.
In general, with hi tech, reading the fucking manual is far more of a threshold, though the body qualities still have a little bit of weight, and maybe quite a lot for really heavy enviro suits, exoskeletons, mecha suits or spacesuits, etc.
**************
A NOTE ON MAGIC
I haven't really factored it in here, but it's obviously got a lot to do with the mental qualities, particularly knowledge and willpower.
Personally, I very much dislike Sorcerers as they are more like poundshop mediaeval superheroes than mediaeval fantasy mages to me, so I'd be much more inclined to take the Vancian route: magic is WEIRD, it's incredibly difficult to keep the spells in mind (Lovecraftian mentally mind-bending syllables, etc.), which is why you forget them when discharged, the relief is so great. You can keep a few cantrips on tap, or use wands (neither of which should be too weak, they should be punchy enough for trash encounters).
Also, as is traditional with all magic systems worldwide, the mage isn't doing the magic, the otherworldly denizens of the astral plane are doing it, they're the ones with the power, you're just petitioning them or outfoxing them or coercing them in the name of their master or deity x. So basically mixtures of INT+WIL and or INT+CON, or WIL+CON, with variable weightings depending on the spell type, how much you're having to outfox/petition/coerce the astral denizens, how much of a strain keeping the spell in memory is.
Having said that about sorcerers, any system like this could theoretically be expended to include innate abilities, therefore both sorcerers AND superheroes. But I think sorcerers' abilties should be handled like superheroes' powers: they come from race or magical accidents, just as superheroes tend to be either aliens or get their powers from science-based accidents. And the general idea that they have less versatility but can do a few things a lot, is about right too.
I've always thought the fundamentals of D&D are actually pretty sound - stats, stat modifiers, etc., and the general idea of the attributes as modeling the basic traits of living entities. But I was wondering if it could be tweaked a bit to make it slightly more realistic.
To be more realistic, I think you have to blend the physical stats with the mental ones a bit more, since both are often involved. In fact almost all our various qualities are involved in almost everything we do. Almost. But the question is how far do you go before it all becomes too much of a headache to think about in a gaming context?
To make it more simulationist but still abstracted enough to be manageable, I propose using paired modifiers, where one is "weighted" more than the other. The advantage of this is that you could blend the effect of two physical stats, or a mental and physical stat, without things getting too out of hand (hopefully).
So as an exercise, I ran through the general types of weapons according to melee/ranged, and low/mid/hi tech categorizations. (Low tech being something you could feasibly make yourself, or with just an apprentice, and/or with basic tools, a smelter, etc.; mid tech being something that would require a workshop, with more sophisticated tools, all of which would require more collaboration and division of labour between more people to make, maybe a machine shop at the high end of it; and with hi tech requiring a whole complex civilization, with intricate division of labour across many peoples. I'm thinking that these tiers provide a ready-made form of progression that's feasible, where to some extent the tiers can "fold over" each other - for example, a tough accurate guy who's not too smart but smart enough can still use a mid-tech ballistic weapon effectively against a big-brained dweeb with a more powerful hi tech weapon - although the hi tech weapon has a higher ceiling, the ballistic is still pretty effective at the point where the lower end of hi tech is in contact with the higher end of the mid tech. This kind of scenario is particularly suitable for world-building that mixes up tech from various ages as a form of progression, and of course if you have magic as well, that should be roughly an alternative viable path to hi tech, but one that could be pursued by societies that aren't as large or complex.)
Note: in the following, the heavier-weighted stat is in caps, the lesser-weighted stat is lowercase. So BODY+mind or STR+per means "both contribute, but the caps stat has more weight." I'm not even sure what I mean by "weighting" here - whether it should be the whole stat, or a percentage of it, or just the standard D&D type +1-+4 etc. modifiers derived from attributes. This is just a sort of rough qualitative look at it, thinking about what traits and qualities are actually operative in my being when I imagine myself using x type of weapon or armor. That's not to say the way I'm cutting the cake is the only way to cut it, but I tried to think hard about the balance between having better simulation and still keeping it relatively simple.
[Later note: forgot to add, with something like BODY+mind I'm thinking of some kind of average of the 3 body stats and an average of the 3 mental stats. Again, how it would work with the specific paired attribute stats related to weapon types and tech types I'm not sure. Maybe the paired attribute stats would have more to do with specialization and the 3+3 would be more generalized.]
I have zero design experience of course, this is all just from a punter's point of view in terms of what I'd like to see. I just find it interesting to think about, and maybe others here would care to muse along with me
First a preliminary look at:-
*************
PRIMARY ATTRIBUTES
Nothing terribly new or exciting here, just a bit of tweaking. At the raw level, the attributes don't govern much that's terribly important, but in weighted combinations they contribute in various ways (some of this should be familiar, some is a bit tweaked).
STR - absolute amount governs encumbrance; some mixed in as parts of threshold requirements and to modify acc/dam
DEX - absolute amount governs speed of action (could also be called SPD, DEX is just more familiar); also modifies acc/dam
CON - mass, robustness, solidity, RES to poison, disease; can modify dam or even acc too (e.g. countering recoil).
[Note: I was also thinking about secondary physical attributes as results of mixing the primaries, e.g. DEX+CON=IMPA as contributing to impact or damage in some way (f=ma). DEX+STR=IMPU (impulse - particularly important for unarmed, monks, etc, and important for something like PEN, melee penetration through DR. Not sure how to mix it in, but there's something important here too.]
_______
INT - governs or modifies knowledge, problem solving, etc; memory would be better separate, but it's ok folded in here
PER - represents sensory acuteness, governs mainly accuracy
WIL - represents force of will or spirit, determination, RES to mental effects
[Again, mental secondaries could be mixes of two or more here: e.g. INT+PER+WIL=WIS, wisdom or genius, not a thing in itself but a resultant, maybe even mixed in with XP, particularly for wisdom, which tends to develop with experience.]
_______
Then finally I think we need something that inputs back to the character from their physical and mental qualities as reflected in others' experience, particularly in a social context:-
BEA - beauty or handsomeness governs others' reaction to physical appearance (yes, I like Arcanum
)CHA - governs others' reaction to persuasion, coolness, leadership and other mental qualities
[Again, you could have secondaries: a low or negative BEA could join with CON and WIL to give INT or intimidation. Low or negative attributes could play all sorts of interesting roles generally, come to think of it. low or negative DEX + high CON as clumsiness, which could even be advantageous sometimes! But I suppose that's depends on how rich or complex the game and story are too.]
________
So essentially the basis would be a fairly standard D&D-type system where you have an "average Joe" level, above which increasing increments of + modifiers require more and more raw stat. It would probably have to be more fine-grained though, going in tens or hundreds rather than units. Otherwise modifications would be too step-wise, rather than smooth curves. But I think a notional relation to D&D should be maintained for the familiarity. So 180 rather than 18. Perhaps you could just have the fine-grained inbetween stat presented as (e.g.) 18.5 instead of 185 for the end user, or 18.54 instead of 1854, to make it easier on the brain and still be semi-familiar.
Since these qualities are are relatively fixed and won't change that much in a lifetime (maybe only in the .xx area bar one of them going up in +1s (or +1.00s or +10.00s), combinations of these should perhaps only give small (but multiplicative) boosts.
The biggest impacts on damage calculations should be first the weapons themselves, as is traditional, then xp modifiers as modest additives, then only lastly the "innate talent" modifiers as small multiplicatives. Skill and experience are ultimately more important for impact on the world than innate talent; innate talent should only set ceiling and floors, with only a small amount of plasticity.
The usual min-maxing possibilities based around dumping one or at most two stats should be possible, but one ought to have to think carefully about what to dump in relation to what to boost (as usual). A more even spread should also be viable, since nothing goes to waste. (Though again, this depends on the design and scope of the game, how much stuff you put in there to meet the player, their actions and choices.)
(Incidentally, in some of this I've been particularly influence by Troubleshooter, and the way the "Feat" equivalents (rather feat bundles), called "Masteries," are presented conceptually and in a simulationist fashion (very carefully and evocatively named, with a little poem encapsulating what the feat bundle does). Yet at the same time it's all exposed, and anyone who wants to dig into the math can. The end result is that a casual can do a tolerably good build just intuitively by following the descriptions, while the min-maxer can get that extra edge by carefully parsing everything out if they wish. That's the ideal to me, and that's the way to keep these games reaching a wider audience while at the same time not losing the core grognard fanbase.)
*************
Again, damage should mostly rely on weapon - bigger/better weapons do more damage, as standard. The attributes should have an effect on damage and accuracy (damage more for melee than ranged), but far more on accuracy (for both melee and ranged), while skill and experience should have the biggest modifying impact (either via leveling automatically, or via choosing to boost a skill on level up).
So on top of the standard weapons-do-damage we need roughly three things:-
1) Thresholds to wield/use (e.g. as standard, bigger and/or better weapons = more impact therefore more damage, then add bonus from the paired combined stats as below - somewhat similar though less important with low tech ranged, even less important with mid and hi tech, where the weapon is responsible for even more of the damage, so threshold gets more important the higher up the tech tiers you go, but threshold depends more and more on the mental attributes than the physical ones)
2) Accuracy once wielded (for melee and ranged, depends on how well you can "handle" said weapons, and where you make contact with the opponent while using them)
3) Crit acc once wielded (crit acc depends on perception and knowledge of target) and crit damage (depends more on knowledge of target and quality of weapon).
1) is related to BODY or BODY+mind, 2) is related to weapon property plus BODY, BODY+mind or MIND+body, 3) is related to weapon property plus mental qualities only, with only small relevance to body. Accuracy is never a floating abstraction but always accuracy-with-x (can you handle it physically, do you know how to use it, have you RTFM-ed?)
************
EFFECTS OF PAIRED, WEIGHTED STATS ON WEAPONS
Low tech LIGHT MELEE weapons (daggers and stilettos to swords, maces, etc.) require BODY+mind.
STR+con (less/more for lighter/heavier within this category) govern threshold to wield.
STR+dex scale accuracy.
PER+wil scale crit accuracy.
Low tech HEAVY MELEE weapons (heavier single or 2H, polearms, etc.) require BODY+mind.
CON+str (less/more for lighter/heavier within this category) govern threshold to wield.
STR+con scale accuracy.
WIL+per scale crit accuracy.
[Note: Mid to Hi tech (complex mechanical or lightsaber type) melee weapons can be lighter than low tech (lower STR+con or CON+str req), but with equivalent or more damage.]
Low tech RANGED weapons (bows, thrown, slung) require MIND+body.
STR+dex govern threshold to wield and reload.
STR+per scale accuracy.
PER+wil scale crit accuracy.
Mid tech LIGHT RANGED weapons (crossbows, guns) require mix of MIND+body.
DEX+str govern threshold to wield and reload. (Also have to cope with some recoil.)
PER+dex scale accuracy.
PER+wil scale crit accuracy.
Mid tech HEAVY RANGED weapons (machine guns, rocket launchers, etc.) require mix of BODY+mind.
CON+str govern threshold to wield. (Even moar recoil absorption necessary!!!).
PER+str scale accuracy.
WIL+per scale crit accuracy.
Hi tech LIGHT RANGED weapons (laz0r pistols, plasma etc.) require mix of MIND+body. RTFM!
INT+wil govern threshold to wield.
PER+dex scale accuracy.
PER+int scale the crit accuracy.
Hi tech HEAVY RANGED weapons (laz0r machine guns, micronuke rocket launchers, etc.) require mix of MIND+body
STR+dex threshold to wield (Some recoil absorption necessary but less than with heavy mid tech.
PER+wil scale accuracy.
INT+per scale crit accuracy.
***************
EFFECTS OF PAIRED, WEIGHTED STATS ON ARMOR/SHIELDS/SHIELDING
Low tech Armor (padded, leather, studded leather + lighter shields) requires BODY only.
DEX+con threshold to wear.
DEX+str to negate armor penalties.
Mid tech Armor (scale, chain, plate + heavier shields) requires BODY only.
STR+con threshold to wear.
STR+dex to negate armor penalties.
Hi tech Armor and technobabble shielding (kevlar, hi tech materials, repulsor shields, etc.) require MIND+body. Maybe just some INT+str or INT+con threshold to wear, and there are hardly any penalties to negate anyway - we're leaning much more on the innate properties of the objects, with less relation to the personal attributes and stats.
In general, with hi tech, reading the fucking manual is far more of a threshold, though the body qualities still have a little bit of weight, and maybe quite a lot for really heavy enviro suits, exoskeletons, mecha suits or spacesuits, etc.
**************
A NOTE ON MAGIC
I haven't really factored it in here, but it's obviously got a lot to do with the mental qualities, particularly knowledge and willpower.
Personally, I very much dislike Sorcerers as they are more like poundshop mediaeval superheroes than mediaeval fantasy mages to me, so I'd be much more inclined to take the Vancian route: magic is WEIRD, it's incredibly difficult to keep the spells in mind (Lovecraftian mentally mind-bending syllables, etc.), which is why you forget them when discharged, the relief is so great. You can keep a few cantrips on tap, or use wands (neither of which should be too weak, they should be punchy enough for trash encounters).
Also, as is traditional with all magic systems worldwide, the mage isn't doing the magic, the otherworldly denizens of the astral plane are doing it, they're the ones with the power, you're just petitioning them or outfoxing them or coercing them in the name of their master or deity x. So basically mixtures of INT+WIL and or INT+CON, or WIL+CON, with variable weightings depending on the spell type, how much you're having to outfox/petition/coerce the astral denizens, how much of a strain keeping the spell in memory is.
Having said that about sorcerers, any system like this could theoretically be expended to include innate abilities, therefore both sorcerers AND superheroes. But I think sorcerers' abilties should be handled like superheroes' powers: they come from race or magical accidents, just as superheroes tend to be either aliens or get their powers from science-based accidents. And the general idea that they have less versatility but can do a few things a lot, is about right too.
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