Review Another retarded...er, I mean, Armchair Empire likes KOTOR

[EvoG]

Don't want to play the bullet-point game so :

Re: News Site - Uh, dude, CONSTANTLY bashing the SAME GAME (or reviews of it) over and over is NOT news. Sorry bud but RPGDOT is a news site technically. No opinions, just lays out whats going on in the world of rpg's.

Re: Saint-Lite - Nope, not about HAVING an opinion but rather the METHOD of exclaiming and presenting your opinion that makes it Saint-Lite.

I love how it is IMPOSSIBLE for pretty much ANYONE on these types of sites to have a complete inability to avoid resorting to even minor jabs at the author of a an opposing view, thinking such derision strengthens their argument. Already, without me EVER even launching my own attack ('cept the Saint lite comment) I've been mocked, had my intelligence and attention span questioned and talked to as if more than likely my opinion didn't matter.

Whatever.

Cheers

 

[Sol Invictus]

I'm playing through KOTOR for the 3rd time now (My hard drive decided to fuck up during a failed RAID migration causing me to lose half of my second game) and I can only point out how much I've come to dislike KOTOR.

I have to say that it's somewhat fun the first time through, when you don't notice the issues you tend to notice, but to be honest I have to also say that the game was WAY too easy the first time I played it. By the time you develop force powers all you have to do is cast Force Wave (or Force Lightning, or Destroy Droid, or Stasis) after Force Wave, after Force Wave and you'll win the whole game in less than 25 hours. 12 hours if you skip -all- the dialogue.

It should be obvious that by the time you play your second game you'll come to realize how truly lacklustre the game's combat is compared to the likes of Temple of Elemental Evil, Gothic 2 or even Diablo 2. The probability of anyone realizing this fairly evident fact even early in the game is fairly high, unless you lack experience in gaming or lack the observational skills of a normal, non-retarded person.

The AI is non-existent, as evidenced by the fact that Bastila can die before she does anything and Carth won't lift a finger to stop that from happening. None of the battles in the game are even challenging and the only reason they might prove challenging is because of the lack of AI in your companions who'll just stand there and take a ton of damage before doing anything.

The majority of the choices you make in KOTOR are quite meaningless except for a few but stupid ones, such as killing the ugly chick, a choice that will just screw you late in the game. The NPCs will insist on whining to you no matter what dialogue option you choose - even the dialogue option that tells them to shut up and go away. They'll continue to whine about their insignificant little problems and they'll always be sure to end the conversation with "That's enough. We must return to the task at hand" and acts as if I even wanted to talk to them in the first place.

The bottomline is that KOTOR is an okay 'game', but it's hardly one deserving the mantle of 'game' considering the fact that it's completely bereft of challenge. In my book, a game should serve to challenge, not to 'amuse' me for X number of hours. This is the very same reason why I don't consider Postal 2 to be a game of any sort.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Re: News Site - Uh, dude, CONSTANTLY bashing the SAME GAME (or reviews of it) over and over is NOT news. Sorry bud but RPGDOT is a news site technically. No opinions, just lays out whats going on in the world of rpg's.

Yeah, 'cause having an opinion is politically incorrect.

Re: Saint-Lite - Nope, not about HAVING an opinion but rather the METHOD of exclaiming and presenting your opinion that makes it Saint-Lite.

Why Lite then?

I love how it is IMPOSSIBLE for pretty much ANYONE on these types of sites to have a complete inability to avoid resorting to even minor jabs at the author of a an opposing view

Well, since you put it that way... I feel ashamed now. So what if a guy thinks that KOTOR is a turn-based game with 4 party members? He has an opinion that's just as good as mine, and the fact that he hardly played the game doesn't give me the right to attack him

Already, without me EVER even launching my own attack ('cept the Saint lite comment) I've been mocked, had my intelligence and attention span questioned and talked to as if more than likely my opinion didn't matter.

Huh? When? Who? I love you like a brother I've never had I did mock you slighly, but I didn't question your intelligence and other stats, I did question your opinion though, but that's what friendly discussions are all about :wink:

 

[EvoG]

Re: News Site - Uh, dude, CONSTANTLY bashing the SAME GAME (or reviews of it) over and over is NOT news. Sorry bud but RPGDOT is a news site technically. No opinions, just lays out whats going on in the world of rpg's.

Yeah, 'cause having an opinion is politically incorrect.

Re: Saint-Lite - Nope, not about HAVING an opinion but rather the METHOD of exclaiming and presenting your opinion that makes it Saint-Lite.

Why Lite then?

I love how it is IMPOSSIBLE for pretty much ANYONE on these types of sites to have a complete inability to avoid resorting to even minor jabs at the author of a an opposing view

Well, since you put it that way... I feel ashamed now. So what if a guy thinks that KOTOR is a turn-based game with 4 party members? He has an opinion that's just as good as mine, and the fact that he hardly played the game doesn't give me the right to attack him

Already, without me EVER even launching my own attack ('cept the Saint lite comment) I've been mocked, had my intelligence and attention span questioned and talked to as if more than likely my opinion didn't matter.

Huh? When? Who? I love you like a brother I've never had I did mock you slighly, but I didn't question your intelligence and other stats, I did question your opinion though, but that's what friendly discussions are all about :wink:

Fair enough...no it wasn't a horrible offense. My main point of contention is that this forum more or less does a good job of have intelligent discussion, minimal flaming and open minded individuals, but the constant ripping and negativity gets so old that it begins to remind me what I hate about DaC. Sure SOMETIMES what you guys write is funny, but really it just gets old.

And yes, he did say turn-based when, yes, that is inaccurate. He seems reasonably intelligent so you can give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he wrote it that way, rather than long-wind an explaination about pause-play, as the term turn-base may be more intuitive. Maybe not. Whatever, he might have seen it simpler to just state it as such.

No harm done.

Cheers

 

[Sol Invictus]

Regardless of what I said I do not consider KOTOR to be 'unentertaining'. For what it's worth, I'll regard it as an 'interactive cinematic experience', but not a game.

EvoG, I must say that reading the news on RPGDot doesn't at all make me enthused about anything. Their style is really very Spartan and the lifelessness of the news posts isn't exactly something that anyone would find interesting. I'm not going to apologise to Dhruin or any one else for reading what I have to say, either. It's what I think and until they can write something interesting, my opinion stays the same.

RPG Codex offers a unique brand of hardcore sensationalism while striving to remain completely objective.

Our spirit is the reason why we're so interesting and the reason why many people choose frequent us, support us one hundred percent or even hate us completely and it's precisely the reason why we should stay the way we are and not be relegated to the throng of websites bent on serving the lowest common denominator. I believe that I speak for everyone when I say fuck the lowest common denominator.

 

[Sol Invictus]

By the way, I don't know what you have to gain by trying to excuse this reviewer's ignorance. He fucked up, and VD's calling him on it. I'm certain he's just sensationalising a small issue but that doesn't change the fact that the reviewer can't get his facts straight.

 

[Elwro]

I Did anyone here who complains about it really give it a try and play it through to the end? Probably not, yet if they did, they'd probably 'try' and dislike it so whats the point, right?

Accusing people to be masochists is a bit too far imo. Do you think people post negative opinions about KotOR only because it's trendy?

I remember when I was happily bashing Lionheart on one Polish forum one guy asked "So why did you buy it if you didn't like it?" (and he didn't mean I warezed it first).

 

[EvoG]

Regardless of what I said I do not consider KOTOR to be 'unentertaining'. For what it's worth, I'll regard it as an 'interactive cinematic experience', but not a game.

EvoG, I must say that reading the news on RPGDot doesn't at all make me enthused about anything. Their style is really very Spartan and the lifelessness of the news posts isn't exactly something that anyone would find interesting. I'm not going to apologise to Dhruin or any one else for reading what I have to say, either. It's what I think and until they can write something interesting, my opinion stays the same.

RPG Codex offers a unique brand of hardcore sensationalism while striving to remain completely objective.

Our spirit is the reason why we're so interesting and the reason why many people choose frequent us, support us one hundred percent or even hate us completely and it's precisely the reason why we should stay the way we are and not be relegated to the throng of websites bent on serving the lowest common denominator. I believe that I speak for everyone when I say fuck the lowest common denominator.

Fine, RPGDOT is rather vanilla, but its a news site, which was in direct opposition to the concept that VD thought constantly ripping on the same game was news. I was making a comparison, not a lifestyle choice.

Yes RPGcodex DOES have character, but sometimes I wish we could find more interesting news other than "this reviewer is stupid" and "this reviewer is t3h gh4y AND stupid and a tard".

Keep doing what you're doing, just SOMETIMES don't make it so obvious for the love of god. Get a REAL good bash in and leave it at that. Do it ALL the time and it loses its impact.

Cheers

 

[EvoG]

By the way, I don't know what you have to gain by trying to excuse this reviewer's ignorance. He fucked up, and VD's calling him on it. I'm certain he's just sensationalising a small issue but that doesn't change the fact that the reviewer can't get his facts straight.

Is there something to gain? Out of many reviewers that even I bash on for having not an ounce of writing ability(ask killzig), he didn't come across as saying anything wrong other than the innocuous description of combat. You say he 'fucked up' when at best its a minor infraction. Things are black and white with you people. No, he didn't make a small mistake...he is a fucking retard who fucked up! You see thats just ridiculous. There are 'degree's' of mistake, not just 'fucked up' or 'not fucked up'.

I think you guys just stretched a bit to make this work for the sake of Kotor bashing, when in fact there really wasn't anything wrong with what he wrote and again, he seemed fairly competent( his writing ). As VD said, even Saint failed to see how this warranted a full bashing, let alone calling him 'retarded'.

Cheers

 

[EvoG]

Do you think people post negative opinions about KotOR only because it's trendy?

To a degree, yes it is, especially here on codex.

Cheers

 

[Volourn]

It's not trendy to bash KOTOR here on on the Codex. It's trendy to bash anything Bio. (happy Azael?)

 

[Vault Dweller]

Fine, RPGDOT is rather vanilla, but its a news site, which was in direct opposition to the concept that VD thought constantly ripping on the same game was news. I was making a comparison, not a lifestyle choice.

One site does news, another site does news and add some comments. How is that opposite?

Yes RPGcodex DOES have character, but sometimes I wish we could find more interesting news other than "this reviewer is stupid" and "this reviewer is t3h gh4y AND stupid and a tard".

Like what? Give me some news on Project Phoenix, give me some thoughts on RPGs and game design and I will gladly post it here so we can finally have something interesting to discuss. I'd rather have some indepth discussion of some new RPG concepts and such, but unfortunatley I have to read and then post another load of crap that is being passed for reviews these days.

he didn't come across as saying anything wrong other than the innocuous description of combat. You say he 'fucked up' when at best its a minor infraction.

He also said that there are 4 people in the party. It's a minor mistake but it's a dead giveaway that he didn't play the game for more then half an hour. He also said that managing inventory is a snap, another dead giveaway as it's a snap only in the beginning, etc.

And yes, he did say turn-based when, yes, that is inaccurate. He seems reasonably intelligent so you can give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he wrote it that way, rather than long-wind an explaination about pause-play, as the term turn-base may be more intuitive. Maybe not. Whatever, he might have seen it simpler to just state it as such.

EvoG, as a reader would you rather be presented with an incorrect concept or with a correct one that requires some explanation? Btw, real-time with pause is not a novelty concept that needs to be explained, it's been around for years. There are other mistakes that I mentioned, and there is no description of the actual gameplay, so what's good about this review and why it should be given some benefits of the doubt?

Things are black and white with you people. No, he didn't make a small mistake...he is a fucking retard who fucked up! You see thats just ridiculous. There are 'degree's' of mistake, not just 'fucked up' or 'not fucked up'.

He wrote a review that isn't accurate, in fact some things are just plain opposite, and posted for people to see and form opinions based on it. We don't comment on people who post one-liner mini-reviews like "OMG! It's the best game evar" on some sites because it's clear that it's a one person opinion. When a site posted this crap, it's an official opinion that recommends the game without reservations to everybody. I believe it's wrong. You can believe what you want to believe.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Huh? When? Who? I love you like a brother I've never had I did mock you slighly, but I didn't question your intelligence and other stats, I did question your opinion though, but that's what friendly discussions are all about :wink:

You know you're spending too much time on RPGCodex when you tell someone you didn't want to hurt their "stats" instead of their feelings

 

[EvoG]

Fine, RPGDOT is rather vanilla, but its a news site, which was in direct opposition to the concept that VD thought constantly ripping on the same game was news. I was making a comparison, not a lifestyle choice.

One site does news, another site does news and add some comments. How is that opposite?

Yes RPGcodex DOES have character, but sometimes I wish we could find more interesting news other than "this reviewer is stupid" and "this reviewer is t3h gh4y AND stupid and a tard".

Like what? Give me some news on Project Phoenix, give me some thoughts on RPGs and game design and I will gladly post it here so we can finally have something interesting to discuss. I'd rather have some indepth discussion of some new RPG concepts and such, but unfortunatley I have to read and then post another load of crap that is being passed for reviews these days.

he didn't come across as saying anything wrong other than the innocuous description of combat. You say he 'fucked up' when at best its a minor infraction.

He also said that there are 4 people in the party. It's a minor mistake but it's a dead giveaway that he didn't play the game for more then half an hour. He also said that managing inventory is a snap, another dead giveaway as it's a snap only in the beginning, etc.

And yes, he did say turn-based when, yes, that is inaccurate. He seems reasonably intelligent so you can give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he wrote it that way, rather than long-wind an explaination about pause-play, as the term turn-base may be more intuitive. Maybe not. Whatever, he might have seen it simpler to just state it as such.

EvoG, as a reader would you rather be presented with an incorrect concept or with a correct one that requires some explanation? Btw, real-time with pause is not a novelty concept that needs to be explained, it's been around for years. There are other mistakes that I mentioned, and there is no description of the actual gameplay, so what's good about this review and why it should be given some benefits of the doubt?

Things are black and white with you people. No, he didn't make a small mistake...he is a fucking retard who fucked up! You see thats just ridiculous. There are 'degree's' of mistake, not just 'fucked up' or 'not fucked up'.

He wrote a review that isn't accurate, in fact some things are just plain opposite, and posted for people to see and form opinions based on it. We don't comment on people who post one-liner mini-reviews like "OMG! It's the best game evar" on some sites because it's clear that it's a one person opinion. When a site posted this crap, it's an official opinion that recommends the game without reservations to everybody. I believe it's wrong. You can believe what you want to believe.

Fine, you're right. Whatever. I don't agree with the extreme level you take to flame or disagree, which was really the crux of my problem with this news post. If you didn't gather from all my posts prior, this is really an issue about the way this site conducts itself, not just this one stupid news post. I want this site to be above the petty, maybe even clever. Right now above petty and clever are far and few between.

Either way you're on the defensive and refuse to address something that I see as an issue. If you don't take what I have to say with any seriousness then why bother? I've never conducted myself in any way that was without thought, and I'm merely stating what I see is a problem that is only exacerbated rather than rectified. Sure you can find ways to justify anything, but I'm not convinced. This news post offered nothing in the way of substance or even entertainment, nor were the comments made on it. Calling everyone a fucking retard or asshat is just sophomoric.

Again, I just want to see the best out of this site. Understand this.

Cheers

 

[Vault Dweller]

Either way you're on the defensive....

I thought I was on the "explaining"

Sure you can find ways to justify anything, but I'm not convinced.

I'm not trying to justify anything, may be my reaction is too harsh, but I think yours is too soft. I will consider what you said though and your point is noted. Well, thanks for criticism, anyway.

 

[Greenskin13]

I've yet to bash on KOTOR, because I've yet to play the game. I guess that means I'm not in the trendy crowd....

 

[dagamer667]

I've been lurking around here for a while, but I feel it's time to chime in about this whole KOTOR thing.

Ever since the PC release, the front page has been littered with incessant bashing of even remotely positive KOTOR reviews. It's one thing to laugh at PROFESHUHNAL reviewers making factual errors (To be honest, I'd love to be able to get an extra character in the party), but it's different story to use bonehead reviews as an excuse to bash the game itsel or ppl who enojyed it. Now, it only takes about a couple of hours of reading these forums to realize that almost everyone here hates Bioware and worships guys like Troika (Arcanum and ToEE were both great games though).

Frankly, it seems to me that the one and the only reason people hate KOTOR so much is because, unlike The Neverending Fights, Bioware managed to make a game that is both financially and critically successful and called it an RPG. If it was labeled as "action-adventure" this site wouldn't give a flying fuck about it.

This brings me to the next point. There are far too many purely linear action/adventure games that are mislabelled as RPGs because they have an inventory and character stats that are controllable by the player. Diablo 1 and 2 are the most obvious examples. Still, KOTOR is close enough to being an RPG to be called one. Unfortunately, there are only a few points in the main story where your side choice affects the story. Most of dark/light situations are found in sidequests. Family Feud is one of the more memorable situations where the outcome is totally up to you (where you can make both sides have a group hug or a spectacular shootout). However, it's still miles ahead of NWN's "story." One of disadvantages of strong story-driven games is that it incurs quite a bit of linearity.

Finally, going over the problems in KOTOR seems to be a popular thing here but let me say this: Most, if not all, KOTOR fans know about them, but in the end the game is still fun to play, which is all that really counts. What good is a 100hour+ stat-heavy game if it's a PITA to play? Having finished the game twice, I know about the ridiculously overpowered Jedi NPCs or the horrendously unbalanced force powers like the heal, force speed (when maxed, you'll shred enemies like paper) or the force wave (damage+stun, although it costs more than usual due to being universal) or the mass paralysis powers or the utterly lame "personal" quests. In general, certain powers and feats are way too easy to abuse.

But you know what? With enough time and motivation, anyone comb though games like Fallout, ToEE, Arcanum, or the good old PS:T, and type up a list of issues that will make those games sound like shit to people who never played them. The only reason people here aren't doing this is because everyone knows that those games have enough good things about them to almost completely outweigh the bad ones.

 

[Sharpice]

Well just want to say one thing, there are "innocent" players love KotOR, and they don't deserve being called retarded just because another firking bloody idiot reviewer doesn't even bothered to do some homework.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Now, it only takes about a couple of hours of reading these forums to realize that almost everyone here hates Bioware and worships guys like Troika (Arcanum and ToEE were both great games though).

You could have just asked and save yourself those couple of hours :wink: . Well, since you reached this conclusion all by yourself, the next step would be figuring out why we dislike Bio and like Troika (Hint: you already guessed it, it's the last sentense above )

Frankly, it seems to me that the one and the only reason people hate KOTOR so much is because, unlike The Neverending Fights, Bioware managed to make a game that is both financially and critically successful and called it an RPG. If it was labeled as "action-adventure" this site wouldn't give a flying fuck about it.

First, are you implying that NWN wasn't "both financially and critically successful and called an RPG"? Second, yeah, you got us, we hate all successful games out of spite.

This brings me to the next point.

There was a previous point?

However, it's still miles ahead of NWN's "story." One of disadvantages of strong story-driven games is that it incurs quite a bit of linearity.

That's bs. I can easily give you some examples of tweaking Taris for example, making it non-linear and consistent with overall design, approach, and story driven thing. Ask me if you are curious and want to learn stuff

Finally, going over the problems in KOTOR seems to be a popular thing here but let me say this: Most, if not all, KOTOR fans know about them, but in the end the game is still fun to play, which is all that really counts.

You assume that whatever is true for you, true for everybody else. I liked KOTOR the first time I played, although I thought that the combat was boring, it was just ok the second time around, and it was extremely boring the last third time. I played 2 sides and 3 classes, and wanted to see if the gameplay is different. It wasn't unless you count different ways to kill stuff.

But you know what? With enough time and motivation, anyone comb though games like Fallout, ToEE, Arcanum, or the good old PS:T, and type up a list of issues that will make those games sound like shit to people who never played them. The only reason people here aren't doing this is because everyone knows that those games have enough good things about them to almost completely outweigh the bad ones.

We don't dig for issues, we discuss games. We discuss strong points and we discuss shortcomings. All games, no exceptions. Even Fallout, Arcanum, and ToEE. Some games have few of those, some games have a lot. That's all there is to it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well just want to say one thing, there are "innocent" players love KotOR, and they don't deserve being called retarded just because another firking bloody idiot reviewer doesn't even bothered to do some homework.

For the third and hopefully last time, I didn't call "innocent players" retarded, I said it was a conclusion, con-clu-sion, one may draw from the review. Can't you people read?

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Well just want to say one thing, there are "innocent" players love KotOR, and they don't deserve being called retarded just because another firking bloody idiot reviewer doesn't even bothered to do some homework.

Nobody called people who play the game retards. Where was this said? I played KOTOR twice through and started on a third before I became tired of it. It's an adventure game in the disguise of an RPG claiming itself to be an RPG. Where's the open endedness in it? Oh joy of joys! You can go to whatever world you want to in whatever order you want to! Yay! Oh.... wait.... every planet is the same no matter how many times you play the game. Damn. I absolutely enjoyed the game the first couple of times I played it through. I gladly and openly admit that. But I don't consider it the greatest RPG ever. Matter of fact, I would rank it in the seventy percent range if I had to give out numbers. Why? Because it wasn't the RPG they claimed it was. A wonderful adventure game? Yes. A deep open-ended RPG with multiple paths allowing different ways to play it each time? No.

Alot of the people on this site who played it enjoyed it for what it was, an ADVENTURE game with some RPG-lite aspects to it. Allow for better character development, allow for ranged combat to be as effective as melee, allow for mutliple paths through the planets, and you'd probably have a kick ass RPG on your hands. But they didn't and therefore have a wonderful linear adventure game with very few deviations from the course.

I in no way feel I have been called a retard because I liked the game.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

We don't dig for issues, we discuss games. We discuss strong points and we discuss shortcomings. All games, no exceptions. Even Fallout, Arcanum, and ToEE. Some games have few of those, some games have a lot. That's all there is to it.

Yeah. I really hated the non-linearity of Fallout. I wish they would have guided my hand throughout the entire game and not let me choose my own path. Bastards.

 

[Dhruin]

EvoG, I must say that reading the news on RPGDot doesn't at all make me enthused about anything. Their style is really very Spartan and the lifelessness of the news posts isn't exactly something that anyone would find interesting. I'm not going to apologise to Dhruin or any one else for reading what I have to say, either. It's what I think and until they can write something interesting, my opinion stays the same.

Meh. I don't mind some criticism. We seem to pull some reasonable traffic despite my lifeless posts.

 

[Azael]

To be honest, I think that the vitriol should be spared for the reviews which indeed are retarded and full of factual errors, not just the ones you disagree with. So, if the reviewer calls the game turn-based, lauds it for its non-linearity and/or calls it the best thing since sliced bread, flame away. Oh, nevermind...

 

[Sol Invictus]

Most of the traffic on your website comes from Gothic and Divine Divinity fans. The rest of it comes from game news sites like ours.

*zing*