Aod News Main Thread

[Lurker King]

I don’t know about intellect but when I don’t feel like reading or writing, I play shooters

I'm shattered.

I don’t think games should serve any special function other than providing entertainment and wasting hours of one’s life, which is the noblest of all goals.

There is nothing noble about making people dumber and childish.

The Inheritance of Rome: A History of Europe from 400 to 1000.

Do you like history books? You should try "Guns, Germs and Steel".

 

[Irenaeus II]

Both books are horrible.

 

[Shadenuat]

Is that Nobel prize thing a joke? I really can't tell.

It's funny due to holier than thou elite indie movement and interviews with many developers where they state some grand works as their inspirations while their own works really don't have anything even remotely grand about them. "I've read whole War and Peace recently, then made Mass Effect".
But maybe it's just Vince having pragmatic approach to gamedev and all that.
Or being humble.
Either way it *is* funny for some reason.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Do you like history books? You should try "Guns, Germs and Steel".

I've read that, but found Diamond's explanation to be too simplistic. Then I found Niall Ferguson's "Civilization" and I think it does a better job at explaning why West Europe experienced its 500 years boom.

 

[Lurker King]

It's funny due to holier than thou elite indie movement and interviews with many developers where they state some grand works as their inspirations while their own works really don't have anything even remotely grand about them. "I've read whole War and Peace recently, then made Mass Effect".
But maybe it's just Vince having pragmatic approach to gamedev and all that.
Or being humble.
Either way it *is* funny for some reason.

It’s true that there is a lot of artistic pretentiousness in the indie movement, but to have this kind of attitude it’s a shot in the foot because AoD is obviously not in the business of mindless entertainment of FO4, and everybody who have been paying attention to his posts know this. There is a middle term between indie pretentiousness and popamole games. When players here on the Codex criticize the game because they just want mindless entertainment, don’t complain. You’re fomenting this type of irrational attitude.

 

[Lacrymas]

It’s true that there is a lot of artistic pretentiousness in the indie movement

Yes, but it's only artistic pretentiousness if we don't see any of this kind of influence of art in the game or it's rubbed in your face. Both of these aren't true for AoD, so VD is being disingenuous. Being humble has nothing to do with the question being asked. There is nothing egomaniacal/arrogant about being influenced by other art and it only gives the impression that he isn't taking his chosen field seriously. Like you said, wanting mindless entertainment is the antithesis of what we aim to achieve here on the Codex.

 

[Irenaeus II]

The bad half of the codex is playing Fallout 4, so you might want to reconsider your last statement.

 

[Lacrymas]

I don't frequent ...that... part of the Codex :p

 

[hivemind]

the difference between 'mindless' entertainment and 'mindfull(?)' entertainment is just an issue of taste
the only difference between fo4 and AoD is in what kind of people are going to enjoy it, but it's still the same thing = escapist entertainment for a certain market
there is nothing in AoD that answers(and I hope this wasn't tried for) some deep questions of life or is otherwise 'artisty', literally everything AoD does is present an interesting story that can be explored from multiple perspectives and a fun combat system for people who enjoy turn based stuff

 

[Tigranes]

Man does not think explicitly about the meaning of life with everything he does, but the things he chooses in work or leisure all add up to the meaning of his life. AOD is no Proust, doesn't make it the same as as FO4.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Not all entertainment is escapist... The lessons learned from art & literature help us shape up our personality and soul. Games, stories, etc aren't totally useless when they are good.

That's the difference between AoD and a shit wasteful game like FO4.

Proust is shit btw, FO4 level shit

 

[Lacrymas]

The concept of taste has no relevancy in art. It has a tortured history that is kind of hard to convey. Kant argues (in Critique of Judgement) that genius, by way of taste, is what we use to evaluate art. I think he defines this as good taste. He uses this because he realizes the problem that arises when you judge art on objective quality. This objectivity comes from the European traditions (not folklore traditions, that's different) in the various arts. Good taste is defined by the educated/knowledgeable people in their respective spheres, this is called intersubjectivity (20th century terminology). Subjectivity that can't be denied and is true for everyone (who is educated), basically. This is why we can say for sure that Beethoven is a genius. Tradition as objectivity is very relevant in this case. Gadamer (in Truth and Method) points out that the idea of taste is irrelevant when you can judge art by intellectual means which have this basis in tradition. It's a lot more complicated than this, this is only a very, very simplified overview.

The video game line here is clear, at least to me. People who've spend a lot of time appraising and playing games can say what is good and what's derivative (and legitimize it through intersubjectivity). This is the same with all other kinds of art. I.e. FO4 is shit, AoD is not :p This is also why we need to know and understand art, otherwise we are fed shovelfuls of shit and we are happy about it. If that doesn't bother you and you like shit, that's fine as well, that's why it's called intersubjectivity and not outright objectivity (although it is) :p

 

[Irenaeus II]

The concept of taste has no relevancy in art. It has a tortured history that is kind of hard to convey. Kant argues

Kant is also shit, stopped reading there lol

beethoven

Lyric Suite

 

[Lacrymas]

Kant is also shit, stopped reading there lol

I know, that's why Gadamer points out that he's wrong, I was just giving the historical context :p

 

[Irenaeus II]

Ok, I'll read it.

Edit: It's way wordier than how I'd put it, but I'm guessing we're on the same page here.

Continue please.

 

[Tigranes]

That Miltiades avatar suits you so well.

Intersubjectivity isn't subjectivity that 'can't be denied and is true for everyone', though, given that intersubjectivity, by its very definition, is open to differences over time and across communities. After all, FO4 getting 80 GOTYs is 'intersubjective agreement by prominent members of the wider gaming community'. So you can't help but have criteria outside intersubjective agreement, whether it is some form of 'taste' or otherwise... if you don't, you just get the Adornian situation where capital makes everyone intersubjectively agree that shit is gold.

The specific problem with games is that nobody really has even a loose set of guidelines to determine what the hell makes a good game (mostly because we still haven't worked out what a 'game' is). And no, "it has to be fun" isn't really an answer, otherwise Ecstasy would be the best game.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Adorno is also shit. Can't you people name a thinker who isn't shit? How about Aristoteles or Thomas Aquinas?

Wow! Just wow! I literally can't even right now

 

[Irenaeus II]

Here's a hint: Disregard any mainstream 20th century thinker and most 19th century thinkers who are still quoted today for good measure.

This should be your mindset:

You are welcome.

 

[hivemind]

. If that doesn't bother you and you like shit, that's fine as well,

More like I don't consider the first thing that comes around which is not complete shit to be duck liver.

 

[Hoodoo]

lol

 

[Lacrymas]

Intersubjectivity isn't subjectivity that 'can't be denied and is true for everyone', though, given that intersubjectivity, by its very definition, is open to differences over time and across communities. After all, FO4 getting 80 GOTYs is 'intersubjective agreement by prominent members of the wider gaming community'. So you can't help but have criteria outside intersubjective agreement, whether it is some form of 'taste' or otherwise... if you don't, you just get the Adornian situation where capital makes everyone intersubjectively agree that shit is gold.

It's not open to differences though and it's not an agreement, not really, if the whole world "agrees" that 2+2 = 5 it still won't be true. We know exactly why Beethoven and his works are genius and that's through and within the intersubjectivity of the existence, history, immanency and theoretical considerations of the European tradition in music. The only communities here that matter are the educated ones, mainstream media isn't one of them :p Intersubjectivity IS objective, but not in the way empirical evidence is. It's very hard to explain and I know I'm not doing a very good job, but bear with me. The one you are talking about is in the weakest sense of the word. Gadamer talks of sensus communis which isn't that kind of intersubjectivity.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Mods, please move all posts since #268 to a new thread in the Library titled "Literature and arts influencing games: Why taste is objective and yours is shit".

TIA

 

[Lacrymas]

Why sensus communis in art is objective and your taste is shit".

TIA

Fix,d

 

[Irenaeus II]

What did you just say about my sensus communis, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Boatmen of Styx, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Aerelian Outposts, and I have over 300 confirmed body count. I am trained in axe+dodge warfare and I’m the top crossbower in the entire House Daratan forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Decadence, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of 40 Thieves across the Maadoran and your village is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands, particularly with arterial strikes. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of Imperial Guard and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo

 

[hivemind]

What did you just say about my sensus communis, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Boatmen of Styx, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Aerelian Outposts, and I have over 300 confirmed body count. I am trained in axe+dodge warfare and I’m the top crossbower in the entire House Daratan forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Decadence, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of 40 Thieves across the Maadoran and your village is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands, particularly with arterial strikes. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of Imperial Guard and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo

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