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Are drow inherently evil? And other D&D racial restrictions that have been loosened over the years

mediocrepoet

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Other than that, the "not all drow" crap started in 2E...
Non-evil drow originated with Drizzt Do'Urden in R.A. Salvatore's novel The Crystal Shard from 1988, thus predating AD&D 2nd edition. The later presence of non-evil drow options in rulebooks and setting books stems from the popularity of these novels.

crystalshard.jpg
And his adaptation into the ruleset through stat blocks like many of the novel characters were.

Still though, it really is the same issue as the classic dumb argument about whether it's evil to kill orc babies.
 

thesecret1

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What's even the point of fantasy races if you're going to give them human mentality and morality? Of course the drow should be inherently evil (by human standards), else you may as well just replace them with humans.
 
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This has always bugged me, most recently while playing Pathfinder Kingmaker.

At first, Orcs were all evil. Then Orcs became playable, then later they had no inherent alignment. Then the same thing happened again with Drow, then it happened for Tieflings. People can't help playing the Chaotic Good character from an Evil race archetype and each edition retcons the previous villians into being morally grey. Nowadays race is basically meaningless outside of the stat implications, basically a palette swap.

Then, in Kingmaker, I realize that Goblins (at least, by the game rules) are supposed to be treated as fully fledged characters with any range of morality. Which just doesn't make any fucking sense in the game world. Nok Nok, despite being written as an idiot, actually has 12 INT. He is in fact "smarter" than ~65% of the other potential party members in the game. There's such a complete discontinuity here. He is in fact still registered as Chaotic Evil in-game but he's really just Chaotic Neutral at best, maybe even leaning Chaotic Good. And this is supposed to go for every goblin in the game in theory. It just does not jive with the fact that they are universally in-game depicted as stupid joke creatures that we're supposed to murder en mass.

At first it was just general watering down over time, but I'm going to assume its all due to SJWification at this point. Designers are afraid of saying that anything is intrinsically evil or stupid any more except for creatures that are axiomatically evil or stupid (e.g. devils or animals).

Also, extra points for when the description for these races still says "uhh yeah most people hate orcs/drow/tieflings/etc and you should totally expect to be an outsider among civilized society" then literally none of this happens and in fact these same races make up important, respected story characters in charge of shit.
 

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So how do you explain Drow that worship the good Elven gods or good gods like Drizzt with his belief in Mielikki. He was evil and changed?

You forgot that in AD&D 2E that societies have an alignment. Most Drow cities are evil which in turn teaches Drow to be evil. Good Drow are those from good areas. Alignment in AD&D 2E is a character's personal outlook. Evil characters can become good while good characters fall to evil. It's how works.

Dungeon Master Guide Revised  (Premium Edition) Page 37.jpg
Dungeon Master Guide Revised  (Premium Edition) Page 38.jpg
 

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Good post up until this, but well no. 2E seriously toned down racial requirements, level caps, etc. from 1E and in that light 3E could be seen as a continuation of that movement. The only other thing that 3E removed was not requiring paladins to be human.

Other than that, the "not all drow" crap started in 2E and I think the first instance of this sort of thing is actually the "is it lawful good to kill orc babies" crap that is generally against the spirit of D&D imo, though if you want that sort of game, then by all means. At that point though, your game isn't really about heroic adventure and looting, it's more some sort of metacommentary and philosophical thought experiment to raise discussions of ethical issues and whatever else might be on the group's minds.

It started in AD&D 1E when Drizzt was introduced.
 

motherfucker

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Also, extra points for when the description for these races still says "uhh yeah most people hate orcs/drow/tieflings/etc and you should totally expect to be an outsider among civilized society" then literally none of this happens and in fact these same races make up important, respected story characters in charge of shit.
Say what you want about Dragon Age, but Origins was cool for people being racist to an elf MC
 

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Say what you want about Dragon Age, but Origins was cool for people being racist to an elf MC

Yep. Also with each class having its own starting area and starting quest. Would be cool it in a D&D game, where you start at lv 0 and barbarians start in a barbarian tribe, clerics in a church, mages in a academy reading a lot and so on. One tabletop game which starts at lv 0 by default is shadow of the demon lord(obvious the DM and group do wathever they wanna, is they wanna start at lv X, they can)
 

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Good post up until this, but well no. 2E seriously toned down racial requirements, level caps, etc. from 1E and in that light 3E could be seen as a continuation of that movement. The only other thing that 3E removed was not requiring paladins to be human.

Other than that, the "not all drow" crap started in 2E and I think the first instance of this sort of thing is actually the "is it lawful good to kill orc babies" crap that is generally against the spirit of D&D imo, though if you want that sort of game, then by all means. At that point though, your game isn't really about heroic adventure and looting, it's more some sort of metacommentary and philosophical thought experiment to raise discussions of ethical issues and whatever else might be on the group's minds.

It started in AD&D 1E when Drizzt was introduced.
Yeah I guess it was. The dates are pretty close together - 2E in 1989 and Crystal Shard in 1988.

Most of Drizzt's appearances were during 2E and I tend to associate him with 2E. Shitty snowflake character whichever way you slice it.
 

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Yeah I guess it was. The dates are pretty close together - 2E in 1989 and Crystal Shard in 1988.

Most of Drizzt's appearances were during 2E and I tend to associate him with 2E. Shitty snowflake character whichever way you slice it.

Oh I agree with ya. His first AD&D TTRPG appearance was FR5 The Savage Frontier published in 1988.
 

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I argue that Drow can't be "inherently evil" because they live in a society. It's an awful society with values that we don't generally embrace, and it might qualify as "objective evil" for detection of alignment, but a society can't really consider itself evil, even if it wants to.

An entire species or race cannot live in a society and be "evil". That only works for demons, who don't have to live in a society.
 

mediocrepoet

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Drow society isn't really much like what you'd normally expect from what I've read about how it was imagined. Things like murder being acceptable so long as you don't get caught / it can't be proven even if people know and this being an expected route of advancement, etc.
That's pretty evil and chaotic. It's likely not a very effective society and would probably fall apart without some all powerful entity like Lolth and her priesthood to control it all through fear, but it does sound actually evil.
 

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View attachment 25627

tl;dr: Fucking cop-out
Its an interesting perspective but I dont agree that Drow are always evil and cannot change. Their are good Drow in the FR and no baby is inherently evil, this type of behavior is inculcated in someone through their upbringing. So if a Drow baby is raised by good people it will be good

Besides Viconia is hot, we always allow exceptions for hotness :hug:
Gary Gygax:
As I created them, there are absolutely no good Drow save for the insane.

Gygax held a strong belief that many traits are inherently biological, so yes, he believed Drow were born evil.
I agree with this. And any Drow that is not evil is merely an exception that proves the rule.

From 1E:
Drow: The “Black Elves,” or drow, are only legend. They purportedly dwell deep beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users.
...
Dark elves, also known as drow, are the most divergent of the elven sub-races. Their form similar to that of other elves, but their skin color is the inky black of a moonless night and their hair is normally pure white or silver. Classes open to dark elf player characters are cleric, fighter (including ranger), cavalier, magic-user, and thief (including thief-acrobat and assassin). Males and females of this sub-race differ in the maximum level attainable in the cleric, fighter, and magic-user classes. Drow are generally evil and chaotic in nature, though player characters are not required to be so.

A dark elf player character is considered an outcast from his or her homeland deep within the earth, whether by matter of choice, alignment, or merely being on the losing side of some family-wide power struggle.
As such, drow characters do not have immediate access to the weaponry, armor, cloaks, and poisons that are normally found in the possession of non-player characters of this sub-race. The 50% magic resistance possessed by NPC dark elves is likewise not a property of player characters, who have abandoned their homeland; it is likely that this power is the result of extended dabbling in the dark arts as well as the effects of their environment. Once having made the decision to embark upon an adventuring career, a drow player character can never regain this magic resistance short of the use of wish spells or similar magics, but can still rise in power and dominate fellow dark elves. Outcast dark elves do retain the customary elven resistance tc 3 charm and sleep, and they receive a bonus of + 2 to all saving throw: 3 versus magical effects.
Players who were a different alignment from evil were considered exceptions and outcasts. Drizzt basically being an example of this, though apparently one Gygax didn't approve of.

The drow were actually created to be the dominant human-like race in the vast subterranean world. What little I know about how they have been treated by other authors since then is not at all palatable to me. The drow are purely malign by temperament, as hateful as wolverines, as opportunistic as hyenas. they have absolutely no angst, save when facing an immediate threat from a more powerful drow or demon.

— Dragonsfoot, Q&A with Gary Gygax, 2005
 
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Never play dungeons and dragons with anyone under 30. You'll run into the "goblins aren't evil by nature!" and "the barkeeper of this small village is a Drow" and it's disgusting.
 
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View attachment 25627

tl;dr: Fucking cop-out
Its an interesting perspective but I dont agree that Drow are always evil and cannot change. Their are good Drow in the FR and no baby is inherently evil, this type of behavior is inculcated in someone through their upbringing. So if a Drow baby is raised by good people it will be good

Besides Viconia is hot, we always allow exceptions for hotness :hug:
DND is a setting where Evil and Good are measurable objective forces.

In 2E Drow were still considered inherently Evil because of the taint of Wendonai.
So how do you explain Drow that worship the good Elven gods or good gods like Drizzt with his belief in Mielikki. He was evil and changed?

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drizzt_Do'Urden
Good Drow are pretty much the Drow version of sociopaths and psychopaths.

When your entire species has borderline personality disorder, the Drow who would be mentally normal in any other society are the mentally ill ones.

In seriousness, we're meant to believe that the Drow have a cultural and possibly genetic/spiritual disposition toward evil, but they don't need to give into it and can cultivate aspirations toward goodness if they consciously reject their culture/nature.
 

mediocrepoet

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Separating threads is disgusting, whoever does this is retarded sociopathic cuck

It was pretty justified in this case. This took a hard turn from anything related to BG3 directly into a discussion of RPGs in general and the history of tabletop specifically.

If you were looking at the BG3 thread for BG3 information as should be expected, you'd find this instead. Whereas with the move, there are people more knowledgeable about the history of the TTRPGs weighing in which is great.
 

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I have just thought of a really tough question similar to this Drow debate, could a mind flayer or beholder baby raised by a good family be good? Because those creatures are inherently evil?

A venomous snake risen by fluffy rabbits is still a venonous snake.
Even if it eat carrots and believes itself to be just a stange-looking bunny, with a slightest push it would slide back to MO that is in it's nature.
It was mentioned before, but alignhments in D&D only work when they are absolute, not relative.
 

mediocrepoet

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So how do you explain Drow that worship the good Elven gods or good gods like Drizzt with his belief in Mielikki. He was evil and changed?

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drizzt_Do'Urden
Good Drow are pretty much the Drow version of sociopaths and psychopaths.

When your entire species has borderline personality disorder, the Drow who would be mentally normal in any other society are the mentally ill ones.

In seriousness, we're meant to believe that the Drow have a cultural and possibly genetic/spiritual disposition toward evil, but they don't need to give into it and can cultivate aspirations toward goodness if they consciously reject their culture/nature.

The larger complaint is that instead of a one off crazy exception, suddenly you couldn't take a walk without tripping over 18 Drizzt clones and then suddenly, hey these are player options and you can do what you want, and then hey, nothing has an inherent alignment because that's racist.

It's like watching the slippery slope play out in real time. I often don't put much stock into overly reactionary talk, but it actually happened in this case.
 
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Separating threads is disgusting, whoever does this is retarded sociopathic cuck

It was pretty justified in this case. This took a hard turn from anything related to BG3 directly into a discussion of RPGs in general and the history of tabletop specifically.

If you were looking at the BG3 thread for BG3 information as should be expected, you'd find this instead. Whereas with the move, there are people more knowledgeable about the history of the TTRPGs weighing in which is great.
Yeah and this thread will never see the light of day once everybody will move on, while this type of discussions is what makes BG3 thread an outstanding read. Not to mention that this retarded practice works very selectively in a weird way ignoring boring autistic off-topics, while moving genuinely good discussions.
 

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